On the link here there is a photo of 2 German Shepherds described as being 'Poorly Bred' (in regards to type I assume) while the dogs on the right are described as being 'Well Bred Dogs' from the photo's alone would you agree with these statements ....? 

They don't appear to be poorly bred to me, just my honest opinion.

http://www.germanshepherdbreeders.com/German_Shepherd_Puppies.htm

Here we go again...put it this way I would buy a gsd pup from the litters due in feb....

Never seen a Shepherd with a tail like the one in the lower left photo

Too much cow-hocking going on in that progeny line-up for me.  Coupled with I know there should be a slope from withers to croup but I don't go for a banana back and my decisions would never be made from photographs alone.   I need to see the dogs MOVE.   But for sure, the two bad examples are hardly quality animals,.

don't like any of them.  prefer the poorly bred if were pushed -at least they look like could go for long walks without breaking but the well bred ones are kind of lacking fundermental 'dog shape'  weird backs & weak looking  back legs do nothing for me.

I think everyone needs to take into account that the specific dogs are in Dallars Fort Worth area of US & their bred standards maybe different to the ' We are La Crem de la Crem' wallas posting on here.

"Too much cow-hocking going on in that progeny line-up for me".

The above dogs (progeny line-up) it states, are the 'Well Bred Dogs' and it looks like its stamped into them from the photo's.
I have to agree M.B. this doesn't look correct to me either, I cannot see how any breed would benefit from being cow hocked.

It's strange that everyone is a GSD expert & that dogs that are fully heath tested & have working(albeit is sports)qualifications are usually described as weak back ended, banana backed etc by people who have no personal experience of the breed or hark back to the good old days of Avon Prince & his ilk(nervous, fear aggressive, multiple epileptic offspring non health tested).

I've met many GSDs in my life time & prefer the dogs that work(as in stock), however I could never consider a US showline type(mega over angulated, over long coupled etc) nor the English coffee table type(short legs, deep bodied, long coupled etc) nor the so called UK working type(long coats that do obedience).

I don't critise the awful show types of other breeds like Labradors, Goldens etc some of which are truly awful.  So why do people start threads just to decry the GSD ???_

> Here we go again...put it this way I would buy a gsd pup from the litters due in feb....

I have just re read my post (I really should carefully read my posts before submitting) & it should say I wouldn't etc...

Here y'all R, KC icons of health & fitness

http://bit.ly/2GpjEzR

Not KC icons of health and fitness as this is a USA site

Wouldn't touch this type with a barge pole and that's a personal opinion. I don't like a gsd with a topline line that.

I grew up in the seventies with this breed mum did obedience and working trials and they looked nothing like any of these dogs pictured

Ah the 1970s when the UK breed standard still included the wording"noted suspicion of strangers"to allow for the disgustingly nervous/fearful types to win(including BIS at Crufts)

Look at these"lovely" Alsatian top winners in the late
1960s & early 1970s

Free standing dogs of beautiful proportions ( not) line bred to Avon Prince a known epilepsy producer

The problem is with what seems like a few diffrent types in the breed each camp has its own  issues and believe their type is the right one. I've seen some moderate dogs in diffrent types who I like.

Saw a nice one reasontly but not sure what type they were at a local open show, was glad to see only one dog entred with the type of topline that has a sharp bend in it half way down and very cowhocked, the rest were either slightly curved or a straight but slightly slopped topline. Hocks were better as well on the other dogs. Even happier to see the dog with the sharp bend come last. The winner looked a very nice dog.

The dogs in the 'Progeny' photo appear to be cowhocked and over-angulated.

This is the dog I admired, and met as he won the Veteran stakes when my Norwegian Elkhound bitch won the champion stakes overall at Windsor 2002, both judged by Stuart Mallard. 

Ch Norwulf Going for Gold at Slatehouse. Superb temperament too.
https://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2009/July2009/News170709/slatehouse.htm

Oh my a GSD with GERMAN bloodlines with a tendency to produce high scoring offspring(27 offspring only scored officially & of them 6 excessively high)that were sadly bred from, but then being linked to Malcolm Griffiths who along with the Martin Brothers faked hip scores & pedigrees(one reason the SV brought in compulsory DNA profiling)who knows what breeding is really behind this dog. Allegedly by a son of Bedwins Barry(a dog allegedly who produced 330 offspring from 54 litters with multiple recorded high scoring dogs).

May be nice to look at but not to be bred from(only 20 recorded litters & 150 offspring) due to his"suspect"pedigree by association with the Bedwins Kennel name & highish incidence of HD.

one reason the SV brought in compulsory DNA profiling

Yes, several european Dob registration clubs do that, DV (German) breed registration now has 3 forms of ID for an individual dog all overseen by the local breed warden from about 3 or 4 days old, it's him who does the ear tattoo, then the DNA & the microchip are done, I dont know if the breed warden who takes the dna sample or not, been going on for years...DV own the prefix to the dog so they are protecting their prefix, as a by product the dogs identity is always assured with the DNA sample.

Doesn't change the fact that the dog himself was a lovely dog, with nice temperament,  and a type that I admire as not being extreme in either the alsation or extreme Germanic type, as for USA type oh lord plantigrade or what.

Also I haven't checked but if a third of his offspring scored high, how much can be attributed to the Dams?

My mother's dog was working bred at Ackley Heads county durham s policy headquarters fo r police dogs at the time, females in those days were not used as police dogs only as breeding females she lived until three months of het fourteenth birthday and could still clear the four foot gate from a stride away

My idea of a correctly balanced German Shepherd is Klodo vom Boxberg but you couldn't breed them like him today even if you wanted to, as I don't see this 1920s Type about anywhere today.

Not sure what you guys make of him but I think he's the bee's knees.   http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=920-klodo-vom-boxberg

Compassion that's pretty much today's Malinois look (with a few minor details different, of course).

Really the police only used male dogs & bred from their bitches ? Must have been unique to Durham force then as the London Met have always had a mix of males & females as licensed dogs & kept brood bitches separately & most other forces bought in or used gifted dogs.

Most forces now use German/continental bought in licenced trained dogs or breed from German/continental dogs. They have realised that most UK only dogs are no longer suitable due to the control needed to prevent the dogs biting.

I used to help out at WT in the 1970s onwards as the trials were run on farmland & we had some available for 90% of the year. Must say never thought much of the UK bred GSDs that competed back then, they lacked the drive required of a working dog in the protection phases. The German type were already appearing & were like a breath of fresh air character & work drive wise.

Now the working line dogs being produced & used by the police both for work & competition are totally different to the dogs of the 1970s. Strong in mind & body & fewer failures in dogs bred by the forces(forces with breeding programs usually have waiting lists from other forces & none available for pet working home)

A famous police dog from Met was
Police Dog Rex 111 a gifted dog of definitively iffy temperament that would not be acceptable today yet a very effective & successful dog of his day. He was only safe to be around when he was with his handler(something his handler freely admitted)

Compassion that's pretty much today's Malinois look (with a few minor details different, of course).

I agree Goldmaili, and a beautiful Athletic breed they certainly are.

I absolutely love Athleticism, and I believe The German Shepherd should be a very Athletic Breed also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNfm0mo0y18

Makes you want to cry when you compare that dog with today's Shepherds!

The dog on YouTube is a DUTCH shepherd not a Mal. Surely these are NOT the same breed & why the h*'ll would anyone want to jump their dog over an 8 ft mesh fence ?? Very very dangerous.

In no serious competition do dogs have to scale over 6 feet SOLID jumps & most use A frames. Dogs are still being injured on a weekly basis doing the vertical scale.

In a working situation no police or forces handler would send their dog over such an obstacle. Totally disgusting that this clip is being cited as showing the ability of any breed of dog.

Now what have they done to the Cavalier a breed that originally as the Blenheim spaniel & King Charles spaniel was a dual purpose companion AND hunting dog has been so altered that many have difficulty having a normal life let alone being able to flush & retrieve game birds oops sorry not an expert and have never owned one so shouldn't express an opinion. I'll step away from critising breeds I have no experience of & leave that to you pro Alsatianists who have in-depth knowledge of all things GSD

The link to the Dutch Shepherd was merely to show 'Athleticism'.

Fence is a little on the high side impressive though.

Impressive ?????? Sorry Javier Sotomayor Sanabria clearing 8ft 1/2in was impressive as HE chose to clear jump. Training a dog to attempt to scale(not jump)such a "feat" is totally disgusting. How many attempts & how many injuries were involved before this one managed it ?

No SHEPHERDING breed needs to be trained to do this to do the work they were developed to do

> Now what have they done to the Cavalier a breed that originally as the Blenheim spaniel & King Charles spaniel was a dual purpose companion AND hunting dog has been so altered that many have difficulty having a normal life let alone being able to flush & retrieve game birds oops sorry not an expert and have never owned one so shouldn't express an opinion. I'll step away from critising breeds I have no experience of & leave that to you pro Alsatianists who have in-depth knowledge of all things GSD

IMO it all comes back to a combination of show and popularity.  On one side, what wins in the show ring is what is bred towards, by the people who just want to win, and what makes the profit in the puppy market comes in from the other side.  If breed type was influenced 100% by working ability, I don't think GSDs would have changed much at all from those original photos.  Likewise the spaniels.

What disturbs me about the slope-backed GSDs is the walking - and I don't mean the apparent froggy gait.  There are high level working dogs with that gait, so it doesn't necessarily impede on performance or ability.  What bothers me is that in the past few months I've worked with two of that topline, and both drag their back feet as they walk.  You can hear the toes scraping on the ground and that is just not normal.  That, to me, says that these dogs are not fit for purpose as that sort of issue should only be seen if the dog is suffering from some sort of injury or neuro problem, or very old - these two are 3yo and 6 months.  Different breeders.

I believe it might help, in terms of how breeds have altered over the years, often not for the best, if we had less breeder/judges here in the UK.  Many times a judge will put up a dog that fits the 'current trend' which may not be how the breed should look, apart from those breeder/judges who 'swap' appointments!!   Looking at that photo of the GSD from years ago, there is a slope, but the difference between that and many today is there's no ROACH - banana back.    And haven't the Germans gone down that road, resulting in many being imported into the UK with that kind of topline?

Breeder/judges were comparatively rare in Canada - in my breed.  Most judges came from the ranks of the professional handler who graduated into judging.  And although many all-rounders don't address current faults within a breed, but look at the whole dog, they are not influenced as much by current trends within a breed.  Of course there were professional handler/judges who'd only put up fellow handlers rather than owner-exhibited dogs but over time it was possible to know who that kind of judge was!!

There was a time when I was after a GSD and phoned a leading breeder, looking for an 'English type'.   He blasted me saying the German-type was the correct GSD.  I moved on.

You have seen HGH or VPG/IPO bred dogs that successfully compete with excessive slope from withers to croup ???? Where in the UK & if it was in the show ring they would NOT be working bred GSDs simply showline dogs with VPG/IPO qualifications totally different types In Germany/Europe ALL GSDs have to pass working tests to be shown, including BH, AD(endurance test), VPG etc these are NOT ALL working line dogs.

Working line GSDs have much stronger heads, less slope in their backline & less angulation in the hindquarters

Few GSDs have roach backs, a roach topline means the end of the rib cage & start of lower back is HIGHER than the withers as seen in Bedlington Terriers. I'm surprised that so many knowledgeable dog people make this mistake, the roach back rises upwards from the withers

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.read?post=612770-what-does-a-straight-back-gsd-and-roach-back-dog-look-like

http://www.germanshepherdworld.com.au/qold-style-vs-roach-backq

!!

You have again searched out photos /drawings a couple of which actually do show a roach backline just as I described the backline rising upwards from the withers(top of the shoulders for those who don't know)
The alleged straight backed(a term incorrect for the GSD BTW)is actually level in MOVEMENT which requires the withers to be higher that the rear to compensate for the forward reach

> You have again searched out photos /drawings a couple of which actually do show a roach backline just as I described the backline rising upwards from the withers(top of the shoulders for those who don't know)

Yes I have because you seem to be objecting to my use of the term 'roached'   Sometimes I really wonder why I bother. 

Look at these"lovely" Alsatian top winners in the late
1960s & early 1970s

Tommee, regarding the 1960s & 1970s links you kindly provided above, who looks more balanced to you, Ramacon Swashbuckler in the 70s link or Klodo vom boxberg in this link here http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=920-klodo-vom-boxberg

You obviously do not understand the mechanics of canine movement. If a dog has a level top line in stance ie. Withers at SAME height as tail, then when the dog moves by extending it's forelegs the forequarters MUST become lower than the hindquarters giving the dog a backline that slopes from back to front forcing the dog to expend extra energy. Now given that a GSD is a breed required to TROT with a LEVEL backline this means the dog cannot move correctly & in an effortless manner for extended periods whilst SHEPHERDING stock(clue to dog's origins purpose is in the name BTW).

Apply this logic to your chosen breed the Basset Hound & it's no wonder they have problems walking any distance nowadays as most showline/pet types have such awful construction

Back rather broad and level; withers and quarters of approximately same height, though loins may arch slightly. Back from withers to onset of quarters not unduly long. Really ???? This dog isn't even standing 4 square in an attempt to hide it's true construction. The Basset is of course required to move head down being a ground track following hound rather that an air scenting hound(BTW have done drag hunting track laying for the working type of Basset after the hunting with dogs act became law so know what Bassets should be capable of I doubt this dog would last an extended track)

You cannot compare the two dogs TBH. The first dog has obvious faults & the second is from so long ago he too has faults

They were show dogs of unknown working ability & health status. I doubt either could do a days work shepherding which is how I would want to assess them.

Well I like him anyway (he's the bees knees for me) I believe Klodo vom boxberg is a good example for the breed.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=920-klodo-vom-boxberg

In the photo(which does look retouched & "improved")you cannot tell anything about the actual dog. If he was so perfect he would NEVER have left Germany, at the time German breeders never let quality dogs out if the country. You select your perfect dog with no knowledge of his health status nor his character.

There are no films of him in motion & TBH he looks as if he would fall on forehand to some extent as do all dogs that do not have high enough withers. He also looks quite light in bone & lacks masculinity.

To swoon over a long dead dog & idolise him doesn't impress me at all. He was a known producer of whites & when you look at his US showline descendants they shows that his genotype & phenotype are no longer present in the breed.

A bit like preferring a Ford T to a modern vehicle

Well look at the hip status of the dams

1st puppy score 38 dam 11
2nd puppy score 54 dam 12
3rd puppy score 31 dam 12
4th puppy score 31 dam 25(stud should not have been allowed to mate bitch)
5th puppy score 42 dam 9
6th puppy score 39 dam 14

Obviously only a small sample of scored dogs by this paragon of virtue temperament wise, who knows what the other offspring scored, but there are repeat litters with no puppies scored so anyone's guess. Would you sacrifice physical health for good character ?? Surely the two must be of equal importance especially for pets

He was a known producer of whites

Awww, aren't they so sweet?, just like those white as well as blue/grey Dobermanns, all the colors of the rainbow.........bet they have wonderful healthy skin...awww blesssx...doesn't it make you proud to be British

http://bit.ly/2EoAnme
.

> Would you sacrifice physical health for good character ?? Surely the two must be of equal importance especially for pets

Of course, health and temperament are paramount, but I was not referring to the dog as a breeding prospect, but as a physical example  dog that Phenotypically I found attractive, as an unexaggerated type.

As a dog met on the day, he was a fit active dog as a veteran, and had an impeccable temperament, the sort of self assured friendly dignity I would expect.

I feel that neither the current Germanic type of dogs, the USA Plantigrade type, or the English long and Low Type are attractive or functional.

Is the GSD not based on the natural form of the Wolf, and was called Alsation Wolf Dog.  No natural canid or any herding dog has the topline of the exaggerated modern Germanic show GSD.

The GSD was briefly called Alsatian WolfDog(GSD) here in the UK only. This was to allay the very aggressive anti German feelings after WW I,  never ever in the country of origin has the GSD been referred to as an Alsatian Wolfdog.

Von Stephanitz's did NOT try to breed a wolflike dog so to try to say that a GSD should look like a wolf is totally incorrect.

There are few breeds(none of them ultra popular) that still look like the early type. Look at the short legged, heavy coated & boned "border collies" in less than 50 years a beautiful athletic dog has become a pretty show dog with less than 5 full champions & even the working test had to be dumbed down for these dogs to pass.

I'm not saying that he tried to breed a wolflike dog, but that his template would have been the wolf for structure.

In Poland for example the common name for the breed is Wilczur (Wolf Dog), but more properly Owczarek Niemiecki.

Having read his book, Von Stephanitz, never mentions using the wolf as a template for the German Shepherd. He wanted a multi purpose working dog that could shepherd, patrol & protect, he wanted to improve the health & I think he would like the HGH & VPG working dogs, what he would make of what the Martin Brothers have done to the showline dogs I don't know, Horand certainly wasn't wolflike but then he was dog 1 in the SV register.

The breed is GERMAN not Polish not English not American & it's only name should be Deutscher Schäferhund not some reference to Wolf like looks. It could well be that the Polish name is like the name in the UK just after WW1 is because of the hatred of anything German.

What do the Poles call the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog? Must lead to multiple confusions having 2 breeds called Wolfdog, funnily enough just looked at a polish GSD site & guess what they call them GSDs. site

I did say they are officially GSD, but known colloquially as Wilczczur.

Anyway I have no idea which it is you admire but the dogs with the strange curved topline and overangulated rears are like not other shepherding breed, or any wild canid, or like any other breed of dog I can think of.

I can think of a few other breeds that have been bred to strange shapes & looks, Bedlington Terriers, Italian Greyhounds, Borzois for starters. Working Bedingtons are nowhere near as "curvy"as the shown ones

I make no secret that I prefer working dogs of any breeds ergo HGH GSD or the VPG GSD for starters, working BCs(smooth or medium coated), etc Not really into hunting/shooting animals so the terrier/hounds/gundogs have no appeal to me, but the drag/clean boot hounds are vasty different to the cartoon like show versions.

Breeds were developed for a reason, even the Blenheim spaniels(named after the Churchills estate)were used to hunt woodcock & were often called Cockers because of this. They are behind the King Charles & Cavalier of course & look wht man has done to them