Scientists criticise trend for raw meat pet food after analysis finds pathogens

"Bacteria and parasites often found in raw dog and cat food products can pose health dangers to pets and their owners, researchers warn. The trend for feeding dogs and cats raw meat has been criticised by scientists, who say it often contains bacteria and parasites that could pose dangers to both pets and their owners.

A growing trend has seen pet owners plump for products such as meat, bones and organs which can be bought frozen and then thawed before being fed to dogs and cats.Among the ideas fuelling the movement is that these diets are more “natural” for pets, avoid problems of additives or contamination in processed food, and can help to tackle issues like skin problems and allergies.

But researchers have pushed back, saying there is no evidence of such health benefits and that raw meat diets can cause dental and gut injuries as well as growth problems in pets – the latter a result of a deficiency in certain nutrients, a particular issue with home-prepared raw meat diets.

The latest study flags a further concern: pathogens." Full article HERE

Interesting. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a study to support the cliam that raw diets "result of a deficiency in certain nutrients". If this were the case, I would be concerned.
Regarding the bacteria, I am considerably less concerned. If they were a problem, I would have expected to have seen a problem/illness in at least one of our 7 dogs in the last 7 years we have been raw feeding. I wonder how many other nasty bacteria etc they ingest after licking their feet after running through muck spreaded fields, our sheep fields, chicken runs etc, not to mention the occasional evil, unidentifiable dead things they like to present me with?

the same one was in the daily  mail too. This happens every so often and is a load of the usual rubbish. unfortunately there is no money to do proper research into raw diets as most of the info is sponsored by the big commercial pet food companies who have a vested interest in damming it. I for one will totally ignore. I do agree a bad raw diet done with no knowledge can be worse than some of the kibbles around but otherwise I have no concerns at all. I have also no of many sick / unhealthy dogs thrive when changed to raw diet.
freezing raw meat before feeding reduces/eliminates the possibility of parasites from meat in most area.. you have to know what's possible in your geographic area

This made me laugh.

My elder dog once stole my disabled son's soiled pad (nappy!) from the bin and ate the contents! No ill effects at all for the dog, though much retching from his humans as he was stopped and then bathed.

Yes I'm REALLY concerned about the mince in my freezer he eats...

Not to mention the poo of other animals and sometimes their on or other dogs, as well of course as the poos female dogs consume rearing litters.

The husband read this article to me,saw it online, Guardian I think. We both had a giggle. I mean yes you would be at risk if you handled the dog's raw and then licked your fingers and never washed their bowls but realistically how many people do that? I am quite frankly more concerned with supermarket chicken for us humans. I supervise my dog's raw meals and anywhere his meat touches the floor I spray clean afterwards,other than that he has decided the best place to eat is on a washable mat in the kitchen. All I know in my limited experience is that the hubby and I used to get quite a few stomach bugs and my dog's excretions were less than solid. Since raw his coat sparkles (didn't think white dogs could) , he is healthy,happy,calmer and the humans in his life no longer regularly come down with stomach bugs..therefore in my humble opinion the low level frequent exposure to potential bacteria has strengthened our immune systems though that is purely my experience. I fail to see any balance in this article,no solid research is mentioned as to real-life feeding. All meat contains bacteria that is why we wash our hands after handling the human stuff and wash our pots. Surely good hygiene practices will go a long way towards eliminating risk.

I heard about all this but my biggest concern re raw feeding, and why I have never done this other than to some extent, with our first hound, is how many people don't know enough to be feeding a properly balanced raw diet.   My first was on breast of lamb, offal and so on, with 'terrier meal' (biscuits).   I really didn't know what I was doing!!

> many people don't know enough to be feeding a properly balanced raw diet.

And this is why I would not advise it to any of my puppy buyers.

Puppies develop incredibly quickly so errors made even in a short space of time could be serious to the pups growth and health.

With an adult dog balancing things out over time, gives less chances of permanent issues.
I have done all raw, when I was able to source at reasonable cost (before the beef on the bone ban).

I now find it would be too costly, and I have no room for bulk storage of frozen.

Facebook Replies:

Chris Dawkins says: and kibble seems to be causing high levels of pancreatitis in dogs judging by the amount of case I've heard of in last year which is more life threatening . Like all things you have to make your own judgement and go with that . Processed food I would think also has far reaching health problems too. I feed 2 dogs kibble and 1 dog raw , just through my choice and financial reasons

Michelle Bella Richman says:  Each to their own i say, i feed happy dog kibble now but have always fed a decent kibble, i cant be bothered with the hassle of raw plus handling raw meat bones n offal aint for me,.

Margaret Strachan  says: I have Aussie's and since feeding raw they drop there coat half as much as when they were on dry, there is always a niggle in the back of my mind if I will harm them with raw but they are doing well on it so far. Also I see a lot of these people say its a trend its a fad but having joined raw feeding groups a lot of people have been feeding raw for 30+ years so doesn't sound like a fad to me, people are buying less and less dry food and that's what there problem is, they are losing money!!!

Facebook reply:

Libby Montague-Brown says:  There are more cases of kibble recalls due to salmonella levels than dogs actually getting salmonella from raw food.

Our dogs have been fed raw for nearly 40 years now   However we've always fed meats and offal intended for human consumption, bought in human shops. Only past 10 years or so we've added green tripe to the diet, this one we buy at pet shops (and lately we sourced organic tripe and we now buy that).

No bacterial or other problems that anyone ever noticed. In any event I'm about 1000% sure that natural raw wholesome food is overwhelmingly better for our dogs than processed and processed and over-processed kibble with multitude of preservatives and what not.

> my biggest concern re raw feeding, and why I have never done this other than to some extent, with our first hound, is how many people don't know enough to be feeding a properly balanced raw diet.

I don't have kids, but don't think there is such thing as kibble for kids. Yet people with vast variety of intellectual abilities appear to manage raising their kids reasonably well buying natural products in shop, making up meals out of those products, day in day out.

And if it is not a rocket science to understand the needs of a growing kid body, how could it be a rocket science to understand the needs of a growing pup body.

> people with vast variety of intellectual abilities appear to manage raising their kids reasonably well buying natural products in shop, making up meals out of those products, day in day out.

Children do not grow at the same accelerated rate as Puppies. 

Many parents feed their babies prepared baby foods. and the level of nutrition of many people is very poor.

Many children and adults eat mostly processed food.

I agree monkey although I am a mere beginer at 12 years . Before Mr spratt invented his first kibble were all.dogs unhealthy and did their health improve? especially as most of that new food was left overs and waste until.he thought of a way to use it

I do think it is important for anyone considering raw to do there research frost and not juts through down a lump of.raw meat and think that's it as I have heard of some doing

> Many children and adults eat mostly processed food

True, but at the same time it is universally acknowledged that diets rich in wholesome foods are healthier.

Processed foods are fast and cheap. That's what kibble is, fast and cheap.

That's why many people are eating processed food and feeding it, not because they believe its healthier or because they are unable to comprehend the nutritional properties of wholesome foods/requirements of the body, but because its fast an cheap.

Quite agree.

A quality kibble is most definitely not cheap

Until there is PROOF that feeding raw is better than feeding kibble (ie longevity) I will continue to feed good quality kibble which I can train with for every meal (unlike raw food). 

Every study which has attempted to prove that raw fed dogs live longer than kibble fed dogs, has failed.  It's not a hard thing to test, now...

Dog's lifetime is 10-15 years on average. What "every study" you are talking about which evaluated the longevity of dogs fed on processed kibble as opposed to wholesome raw food?

I can think of a different study though, processed red meat causes cancer: http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2015/10/26/processed-meat-and-cancer-what-you-need-to-know/

This is just by the way of an example. There are many other studies on various preservatives which also cause cancer, luckily the manufacturers are under no obligation to label the preservatives contained in their quality kibble. There are also studies on mercury and toxins found in fish, with indication of those parts of the fish where the toxins are most highly concentrated, which unsurprisingly are the parts used for kibble manufacturing.

We are what we eat after all, and everyone makes up their own mind. Some people choose to give their children processed meals, mars bars and coke, other people instead cook fresh and wholesome meals for their children and give them fruit and clean water. Similar with dogs really.

Processed red meat means things like salami, smoked meats, sausages for one.

For two, that study is a study for humans.  We know that dogs and humans are vastly different.  Dogs need high fat content and don't suffer from heart disease - people do. 

The kibble I use doesn't contain fish...

A good quality kibble does not contain artificial preservatives. 

Comparing kibble to processed food for kids, is a completely false comparison.  Kibble is more like the dehydrated food that astronauts eat.  All processing of food is not bad and does not remove nutrients from the food.

> Processed red meat means things like salami, smoked meats, sausages for one.

Processed red meat also means things like meat cooked at sufficiently high temperature - do read the study, it explains how the harmful elements form during heating the meat.

>For two, that study is a study for humans.

Dogs suffer from cancer just as people do. The study I linked is of particular concern to that disease.

> A good quality kibble does not contain artificial preservatives. 

Can you please name the brand of the quality kibble which doesn't contain preservatives? I came across one accidentally - Bakers something. Hardly quality, but they do proudly state "No added artificial colours, flavours or preservatives", kudos for that. Note the word "added" though. This means no preservatives were added during the preparation of the kibble. This doesn't mean that no preservatives were added to that "meat meal" and other stuff prior to preparation of the kibble. All that stuff has to be transported, stored somewhere, etc, before the manufacturing process begins, and there is a likelihood that preservatives are used then.

> All processing of food is not bad and does not remove nutrients from the food.

I didn't say that all processed food was bad. Cold pressed virgin olive oil is processed food, its not bad. A hot-dog sausage is processed food, and it's quite disgusting. As I said above, its up to one's personal decision whether to view the kibble and any other processed food as olive oil, or as hot-dogs.

>Processed red meat also means things like meat cooked at sufficiently high temperature

Er, no.  Processed red meat does not = meat cooked at a high temperature.  Or humans would be eating processed food if they ate any cooked meat.  When actually, it's the only meat we eat.

>Dogs suffer from cancer just as people do. The study I linked is of particular concern to that disease.

Oh that's ok then - the causes of cancer for people and dogs must be identical, because both dogs and people suffer cancer   Did you know all mammals can suffer from cancer?  Even those that don't eat any meat at all...?

>Can you please name the brand of the quality kibble which doesn't contain preservatives?

I said 'artificial preservatives'.  The operant word there being 'artificial'.  Vitamin E is a preservative and is used as one in many, many dog foods.  It is not artificial because it exists in many foods naturally.  Check out Arden Grange, Burns, Orijen, Acana, Eden, and pretty much every high quality kibble.  Bakers is not a good kibble and I would not feed it.  The artificial preservatives you want to avoid are BHA, BHT and ethoxyquin. 

Honestly, if you're going to decide to feed raw because you believe it is healthier for your dog, then you need to do your research a bit better if you want to defend that choice.  I've done my research and decided not to feed it.  Dogs evolved on the edge of human settlements and ate whatever we threw out - which would include cooked and raw meat and vegetables and grains.  They have evolved away from wolves, in that they possess an enzyme to digest starch - indicating that they are biologically adapted to process starch, unlike wolves, which do not possess this enzyme:   http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/23/science/la-sci-how-dogs-evolved-20130124

> Er, no.  Processed red meat does not = meat cooked at a high temperature.  Or humans would be eating processed food if they ate any cooked meat.  When actually, it's the only meat we eat.

Er, yes. Kibble which contains red meat contains it in processed form, heated to high temperatures and cooked. During cooking the meat develops harmful compounds which cause cancer. When you feed your dog kibble which contains cooked red meat, you are increasing your dog's chances to get the cancer.

> Did you know all mammals can suffer from cancer?  Even those that don't eat any meat at all...?

Yes I do. Doesn't change the fact that eating certain food and chemicals, toxins and preservatives increase the likelihood of the dog's getting the cancer.

>I said 'artificial preservatives'.  The operant word there being 'artificial'. Vitamin E is a preservative and is used as one in many, many dog foods.

Actually vitamin E is not a preservative, it is an antioxidant. And just because the additive appears to be "natural" doesn't mean it is healthy. Carrageenan (E407) for example, derived from seaweed, has been linked to gastrointestinal cancer.

And don't forget the difference between added preservatives and those that are already there before the manufacturing commences. Just looking at the first name on your list Arden Grange sources its ingredients "from all over the world". These ingredients have to be transported, have to wait at customs and so on. Preservatives are added to those ingredients to prevent the spoiling. Here don't forget that these are ingredients not intended for human consumption, which means regulations and checks on harmful additives are way way lower if there are any. Did Arden Grange say "from all over the world"? Think countries like China and similar. Would I ever feed this god knows what to my dog? No thank you.

> Honestly, if you're going to decide to feed raw because you believe it is healthier for your dog, then you need to do your research a bit better if you want to defend that choice.

You are making me laugh It is universally accepted that diet rich in wholemeal foods is overwhelmingly healthier than diet consisting of processed foods. Kibble is as processed as the food could possibly be. I don't need to defend anything, I know the food I eat and feed my dogs is the best.

Monkey, your article is about HUMANS, not dogs.  There are so many differences between humans and dogs, it is unquantifiable.  For a start, many essential and over the counter drugs for humans are toxic for dogs.  Humans suffer from coronary heart disease, dogs do not.  No matter how high their diet is in fat, their arteries will never get congested. 

I don't actually feed Arden Grange, so feel free to scrap that one from your list of kibbles if you don't like it - there are still many, many kibbles using meat from reputable sources which is tested and fit for human consumption.  To rule out all kibble just because it is in theory possible to make kibble from poor quality meat (and some manufacturers do) is chop logic.  I could go buy a chicken pumped with antibiotics from the shop or I could buy an organic one... both are still chicken, it doesn't mean that chicken itself is not a good food...

You've already deconstructed the idea of processed = bad and not-processed = good yourself, with your example of carrageenan. 

A diet rich in wholemeal foods is good FOR HUMANS, because we need wholemeal, whole grains and because that is what our digestive systems thrive on.  You cannot assume the same is true for dogs.  There is no hard science supporting raw feeding and a lot of evidence that it is damaging for dogs and the humans they live with.  No study has yet come out showing that raw fed dogs live longer than kibble fed dogs, despite there now being at least 2 decades or more of entirely raw fed dogs, and despite it being relatively easy to select a sample of raw fed dogs to compare with a sample of kibble fed dogs - and despite the pro raw feeders potentially loving to prove that raw is better.  Strange, that!! 

Do feed whatever you want, to your dogs - but please don't claim that people who don't are causing their dogs cancer or illnesses etc - because there simply is no evidence for that claim and since most of us like to make decisions based on science, best practice and facts.

Just to add to the discussion onetwothreefour that at the moment I am feeding fully raw and using it to train every meal. I wont lie and say its no extra work but its not as bad as id imagined.

I smell like green tripe sometimes but my dogs would never work for kibble anyway (they were on orijen before i went to raw). They are very happy just now, earning their raw morsels seems to really satisfy them.

> Monkey, your article is about HUMANS, not dogs.  There are so many differences between humans and dogs, it is unquantifiable.

The study I cited demonstrates that eating cooked red meat can cause cancer. Do continue to kid yourself that it can't possibly apply to dogs because it is "about humans".

> Do feed whatever you want, to your dogs - but please don't claim that people who don't are causing their dogs cancer or illnesses etc - because there simply is no evidence for that claim and since most of us like to make decisions based on science, best practice and facts.

Yes there is evidence. Diets rich in wholesome foods are overwhelmingly healthier than diets rich in processed foods. Dog kibble is as processed as the food could possibly be.

Add to this the unknown sources of kibble ingredients, preservatives and other chemicals which those ingredients can contain, very low regulations, no obligations on manufacturer to label all of the stuff which their kibble contains, cooked red meats which can cause cancer, fish skins and other parts not for human consumptions containing most of the toxins which accumulate in the body and can cause cancer and other diseases.

It is a personal choice what to eat yourself, what to feed your children and what to feed your dog. Personally I choose to eat and feed wholesome foods and yes, wherever possible organic. We buy organic chicken, fresh meat, offal and bones from our local butcher, organic tripe, fish always filets from human shops, organic kefir and quark, organic carrots and other veggies, organic apples. It is my choice because I believe that eating this diet is overwhelmingly healthier for my dogs as opposed to eating processed kibble. It's my choice because I can afford to feed this diet to my dogs, luckily they are small! And it's my choice because I have time to prepare their meals every morning and every evening, and I enjoy it.

So - still no studies showing that raw fed dogs live longer or are healthier than kibble fed dogs, then?

Just a list of how you like to eat.  Thanks for that.

>my dogs would never work for kibble anyway (they were on orijen before i went to raw).

And that's where you went wrong.... they would have worked for kibble, they would have had to.  I've never ever owned a dog which wouldn't work for kibble.  As a trainer, I've never ever worked with a client whose dog hasn't started to work for kibble once we implement everything we need to implement, to improve food motivation.

I'm glad you're training with raw, as it's way better than not training at all - but it's not going to be as effective because you are still using a high quality food in a low distraction environment - giving you comparatively no where to go in terms of reinforcers, when you want to pull out the really big guns around distractions.  Good luck with the recall training.

But we've had this discussion before... and this isn't that thread, so I won't go on.

Out of curiosity I had a look at the rest of the quality kibble you cited.

Burns is 67% brown rice 20% chicken meal in one of its packets, 71% maize 17% chicken meal in anoter of its packets, its not a quality kibble. In addition to disproportionate gran/meat content, there is actually little meat instead there is "meal". And brown rice - think arsenic, maize - think GM.

Eden adds preservatives to their kibble. Their website is completely silent on the matter, and if so I very much suspect the label (on the packaging) is silent too. Remember that there is no obligation for pet food manufacturer to put all contents on the label. However there is an obligation that if they do put something on the label, that it is not a lie. Given that words "no colours, flavours and preservatives" on a dog food kibble are attractive for consumers and as such good for sales, the only reason for not putting these words on the label is because they would not be true.

Orijen is the kibble I looked at previously myself. I wanted to find good quality kibble to use as little treats, for training and little tidbits on on the walks etc. And I was hoping to find something that would address my concerns - that it would be made of (preferably organic) chicken, contain no red meat, with good quality ingredients, with good ratio of meat to grain/potato, and without preservatives/colours/flavours prior and added. Orijen came very close. They proudly state at every corner that the ingredients they use are fresh and "preservative free no chemicals or synthetics added whatsoever". But do they add preservatives during the manufacture of the kibble? The website makes a reference to "proprietary blend of vitamin E and botanics" as a preservative. However I would like to see the actual label on this food - do they proudly state on the packet that this food contains no colours, flavours or preservatives except that vitamin E? Because there are differences between website FAQs and the product label, legally speaking - the pet food manufacturer may get away with website statements being untrue or vague, but not where it counts as labelling.

> So - still no studies showing that raw fed dogs live longer or are healthier than kibble fed dogs, then? Just a list of how you like to eat.  Thanks for that.

No need to roll your eyes. If I may remind you it was you who claimed:

> Every study which has attempted to prove that raw fed dogs live longer than kibble fed dogs, has failed.

I asked you to cite an example of these "every study", but you went very silent on the matter.

By contrast, I did cite a study in support of my decision to feed wholesome raw foods. So no, its not just a list of how I like to eat.

finding good studies to support raw will always be difficult.Most are done by those companies who have a vested interested in proving their products are at least as good but usually better
It is also very expensive to do research and none is interested in sponsoring such research as their is no commercial profit in raw. Maybe worth watching pet fooled on netflix about the commercial pet food industry. It has certainly opened eyes for a lot of people and given them food for thought . raw food of course :)

Actually they got there dinner (chopped lamb heart) yesterday on their evening walks, working on heelwork. This morning they escaped into my unfenced front garden when my autistic son opened the front door and earned their bone (ox tail) breakfast for a fast recall when I whistled them back (Yes, even my oldest came immediately) - I don't need luck with the recall just patience and time.

At the moment I'm trying to move away from scheduled mealtimes and into a more random pattern where they will eat every day but do not know just when or what they will do to earn it, which will hopefully be enriching for them. I'm not going too fast as they both tend to vomit bile if they're expecting a big meal and don't get it and I'd like to avoid that.

You continue to speak to me really horribly onetwothreefour, what is the problem? Training with raw is better than not training at all as if that was ever my alternative? My move towards training for all meals, which are raw as I feed raw, was an attempt to TAKE YOUR ADVICE. And yet still the object of your derision?

I'm not speaking you you horribly, poodlenoodle, I just think you would get much better results instantly with other options - so it's tough to see you making a decision which then impacts on your life with your dogs in a way that causes you all problems.  I also don't want to see misinformation spread about in case anyone happening upon this thread in future years reads it - such as there are dogs out there that (darn) just won't work for kibble.  I've never met any.  So I wanted to raise a question mark on that, for the sake of others.  But I'm really glad your dogs came back when called...

Monkey, ah I see - sorry, I phrased my original post incorrectly.  I should have said that no studies exist which prove that raw fed dogs live longer or are healthier than kibble fed dogs.

No, insinuating I previously have not trained at all and continuing to act like I'm some sort of fool is just plainly horrible.  I wonder if you would dare speak to me in the street as you see fit to here, sneering "but I'm really glad you're dogs came back when called".  It is extremely rude and completely uncalled for.

Never fed my dogs anything but raw meat & didn't start recently either.

Dry dog food was produced(& still is)for the convenience of the owners not the health of the dogs.

The only meat I cook is liver & that is)for treats for basic training.

Everything else is raw & has been since I got my first own dog more years ago than I care to remember. Have experienced very few health problems & rarely any stomach upsets.

My dogs never get kibble & TBH I don't know if they would eat it except if they were starving They actively steal soft fruits in season from the bushes & often get leftovers from human meals(I'm a vegetarian)added as a treat.

Dogs are more omnivores than pure carnivores & most just love to scavenge & will usually eat just about anything.so most would probably eat kibble when hungry, but most kibble would rank as fairly low value reward

I wonder if the funding for these "experts"is from the pet food trade

Tommee out of interest, will you dogs eat liver raw? Even my pup (who is a lab on the inside and will eat anything) won't. Is it "a thing"? Mine love it cooked.

Mine will eat any meat raw. I find the look of liver off putting & I have always used gloves to handle meat as I hate the feel of it raw or cooked. It is a very iron rich meat & I never give much raw for this reason. Using it as high value treats cooked with a touch of garlic makes it very attractive to my dogs.

>  I wonder if you would dare speak to me in the street as you see fit to here, sneering "but I'm really glad you're dogs came back when called". 

Sorry you thought that was 'sneering'.  I think that assumption says far more about you, than it does about me.  It was meant genuinely - I am glad that your dogs are responding.  That is obviously the main thing, whatever happens in conversations like this.

Please stop accusing me of saying things in ways I have not said them.  I spent a lot of time on another thread giving you advice and trying to help you with a recall problem.  I choose to avoid the "Behaviour" forum on Champdogs simply because this is what I do for a living, so I don't really want to come home and do more of it for free at other times.  But I happened to see your post on another Champdogs forum here, so I thought - what the hell - I'll help this person, as I've seen their post.

You didn't want to follow the most central part of that advice I gave, and then pop up in another thread saying you have dogs which simply 'won't eat kibble'. 

Feel free to train your dogs in any way you like, but since this is a public forum where all can participate, I won't let misinformation be spread about.  Food motivation and the use of food in training is one of the most misunderstood areas there is.  Any opportunity I can take to point out how it may be adversely affecting someone's training, I will.

I guess the whole scenario has reinforced my decision not to give training advice online  

I'm done with this subject.  Good luck with your recall.  And I mean that genuinely, although I'm sure you will hear it as "sneering", again. 

Re not eating liver:  what liver are you offering raw?  My foodie will happily eat raw lamb or chicken liver, is not sure about ox liver but will eat it (I don't feed pork);  the other one (not food motivated) will only eat chicken liver raw but loves and will work for "liver pate" out of a tube.

Won't help.woth your ditch the bowl but some prefer offal frozen and as it's small.amounts it shouldn't be a problem feeding g frozen .the other way is to liquidised and mix in with other meats . U can reduce the amount of cooking and usually they will get used to it as the amount of cooking is reduced and eventually eat raw.or as merrypaws suggests try different types of liver as ox and pig is a very strong flavour
Calve lamb and chicken being least strong.i am sure u know that unfortnately offal is a necessary part of a raw diet so some how it has to be in their . Dalmatians apart of course  . It's the main way dogs get vit d amongst other vitamins and minerals

I've only ever offered calf, lamb and chicken liver. Never cooked chicken as I tried it a long time ago and when the eldest didn't take it I switched to lamb (back in those days he was still mostly on orijen).

They will take a bit of raw calf liver but then politely put it down again. They won't even take lamb liver from my hand. But they go mad for cooked lamb liver.

The eldest is funny with heart too. Loves lamb heart, won't touch beef heart. Younger eats both with equal gusto.

I think I'll try mincing it and adding it to minced green tripe or something equally smelly and make little frozen burgers/meatballs with it. It does help with my ditch the bowl FF!  I often feed things frozen. Duck necks I always give frozen because they are in long coars and white legged and it reduces bloodstains while also slowing them down just enough to get them to chew the bones properly. The youngest used to upend the whole thing and swallow it like a sword swallower then throw up 5 perfect vertebrae the next morning... so a bit if frozen liver shouldn't faze them.

ooo careful with the necks they easily get stuck same with oxtail bones , perfect shape for a choking hazard   . Sorry I don't mean to be Mrs Negative it just being part of raw group of 20k members we see all sorts happen and you get to learn which is the biggest risks   .Its like freezing before feeding all raw meat even supermarket meat because of the small risk or canine neospora and toxoplasmosis parasites. risk is small but it does happen and is awful when it does.
anyway I am full of admiration for what you are doing with your dogs  ,particularly as you must have your hands full anyway dogs aside. I have enough trouble with my two and no young children around

I know, I have read horror stories too. I only feed neck or ox tail if I'm sat right with them. If you ask the butcher they will cut the ox tail into two-bone sections which mine are more likely to chew rather than just swallow. One bone sections from the thin end of the tail are the worst.

My pup stole a duck neck off my eldest when he was TEN WEEKS old and swallowed it whole in the time it took me to run across the room to him. I was in a complete panic of course. I can't imagine how it physically fit inside him. The vet laughed at told me what to watch for, but he threw the bones back without incident (unless you count the carpet) the next morning.

I personally never feed rawhide or cooked/sterilized bone but know lots of people who have for lifetimes and never had a problem. When i was a small child we had a lab cross who choked on a small sharp bit of baked mixer. It actually got stuck across her throat and slit the inside of her oesophagus partly open and she choked and collapsed. My mother saved her by picking her up by the hind feet and hitting her hard on the back, which brought out a torrent if blood and vomit which dislodged it, but she had an hypoxic brain injury from it and extremely poor short term memory thereafter.

My kids are the least of my trouble just now, my husband won't be able to use his right hand until March!

FF - out of interest does your caution about poultry necks mean that you do not feed them at all?  Or do you, perhaps, bash them up before feeding (for want of a better expression!)

I do not feed raw all the time but would like to offer appropriate meaty bones as a treat and for their teeth cleaning properties.  What would be your recommendation for such purposes?  Obviously I want to minimise choking hazards and tooth fracture risks.

Any suggestions gratefully received.  (Apologies for hijacking, poodlenoodle!)

I do feed on occasion but not frozen and watch very carefully or cut them up  .the other problems with neck depending on how  well i know the supplier and their sources is the possibility of remain thyroid tissue .feeding here and there is fine but too much increase the risk of thyroid problems in a dog. It's all risk assessment but being aware I feel is always worth it. I know many who only feed raw occasionally perfectly successfully just because I don't doesn't make anyone else wrong  at all. something else to think about is that a wholly raw fed dogs stomach becomes more acidic to digest bone easily .a partly  raw fed dogs has a more alkali stomach .so again watch how.thinghs go as digestion will be harder. The softer bones would be best if people want to feed both as digestion should be easier . .

Totally agree poodle noodle risks are always there .I did a canine first aid course partly because although having done them for.humans.i  Wanted to be as confident as I could be that I would be able to deal with accidents including how to deal.with choking etc in for dogs . One of mine is a greedy  guts and if we arnt careful will swollow thing whole and has managed to get something large stuck in her throat. I thought it was too big for her to swollow but no . Hand into mouth and I manage to pull it free .while I was recovering she was asking for back !

Thank you FF - that's very helpful.

Small update on the liver - i blended some and mixed it with a natures menu chicken and green tripe pack and they ate it very happily. Blended it is completely disgusting so I broke my ditching rule and they had it from bowls! They had minced beef earlier in return for recall practice and I'm pleased to report both came within 2 seconds of hearing the whistle 100% of the time. I blew the whistle during sniffing, chasing (their best pal was there in the dog run too, a great distraction), wrestling and between throwing a ball and them getting to it. Obviously in a dog run with a known friend is not loose in a field with random dogs but I'm still pleased with this progress.

Being horrible to people and then telling them it is their imagination is called "gaslighting". I think given the number of upvotes I have had when trying to defend myself against your unkindness in various threads that it is NOT my imagination.

I was interested to see your previous account, onetwothree, was already on my ignore list when I clicked to add this one, it seems old habits die hard.

When I feed raw chicken necks I cut them with bone scissors into chunks about 3/4 inch long. This appears safe to me for my small dogs even if they happen to gulp a piece without chewing. Chicken necks are very tender bone, easy to cut and easy to digest, we've never had a problem.

But I do feed these only occasionally, because of the thyroid issue. I also occasionally feed raw beef trachea, these I cut into 1.5 inch pieces and my dogs chew them. Same issue with thyroid, so not to often.

Raw chicken feet though, is their daily treat! Lots of stuff in it that is good for joints. We found these in organic version, and stuffed the freezer full. Dogs love them, nails and all (they poop nails out though undigested).

similar here monkey one of mine is terrible gulper so I have to be extra careful with her but then that's the story of her life when she is awake