Hi all, first post for me (first of many, I hope!)

I have been watching Eric Salas on Youtube. When I first discovered him I was turned straight off by the talk of dominance, head straight and correction style but I've recently rewatched and **some** of it speaks to me.

Who is a fan? Anyone? Any real-life experience of his methods? Has anyone adopted his style with success?

I was fortunate enough to secure a 15 min session with  Eric at Crufts 2017. I can honestly say that I learned more in that 15 mins, than I have learned in many years of going to ringcraft clubs.  His methods do work - within 5 min he had my rather gnat minded adolescent cavalier boy paying full attention.  He worked on it with me and an hour later we got 2nd in a good class of 12!
I can also say that he is not rough with the dogs at all

Having watched a few of this person's videos I note he uses a choker(called a flat link)like so many people who show their dogs & they are not called chokers for nothing.

Why don't people train their dogs from puppies to know that being near them whilst walking is rewarding without a lead, then the dog never learns to pull against the collar ? It isn't rocket science or is it ?

Do you put down your dog winning to a single lesson ? Wasn't your dog trained before going to the show ? I would look stupid turning up at a trial with an untrained dog

I just have to pick up on the sometimes misconception re so-called 'chokers'.    I prefer 'slip lead/collar' BUT provided the collar has the right sized links, is put on and used correctly, there should be NO 'choking' going on.   And yes, most of mine were shown on a fine 'choke' collar or a martingale.   There was, however, never any pulling by the time mine reached the ability to behave in the ring.   Why use one when showing - because a fine one almost couldn't be seen so didn't detract from the neck line.

I know nothing about the person referred to here.

Tommee:  I'll take it from your terminology that you don't show, yourself?  Correct me if I am wrong?

In reply to your first comment:  Yes he does advocate the use of a slip chain, but its like anything - there are good and bad ways of using any equipment, and the methods he uses do not include rough handling.  I have seen far worse  at pet dog training clubs, with people hauling on dogs whilst trying to train them.  I personally use a half check on mine in the show ring and a plain flat leather collar for walking etc.

As to training dogs from puppies, I do train mine as puppies -  from 6 weeks onward training begins - firstly just getting used to being handled all over and moving on from there to socialisation and lead training.  My dogs are always well schooled when going into the ring - something often commented upon in write ups, following wins.  I also compete in obedience and rally so I do know how to train a dog!  However some breeds can be very difficult and so a bit of help is always useful.  If you actually saw the people who go to Eric for help, they are experienced show people, who often  have a specific issue with a specific dog, or with their own confidence.

Do I put down my dog winning to a single lesson?   Obviously I do not put that session down as the sole reason for the success - however what it did do, was give me another perspective on the attention span issue and thus some more tactics to add to my repertoire for dealing with it. After all we can always learn something new can't we?

My dogs work doing what they were developed to do. They walk with me off lead from the day they arrive here.

I have friends who show who use non coersive methods & don't need to use chokers the way this man does. They are very successful & are known for showing all their dogs free standing & on loose leads & normal collars despite the fashion in their breed to string & stack using the finest of chokers up under the dog's ears where pain is easily inflicted without onlookers being aware.

Obviously your dog managed to qualify whilst being partially untrained.

Sadly the fashion for this style of overt abuse is on the increase in the UK

There are a few issues that need picking up on in this thread. Firstly, the flat link collar is not just any "choker" and it is certainly not used to inflict pain. The links of the chain are hammered flat and they give a very distinctive clicking sound as they pull through. Eric's method of training is based on a combination of cues of sound and visual hand signals--not pulling the dog along on the end of a chain as seems to be suggested here, stringing the dog up or distracting the dog with one's voice. The correct use of the combination of flat link collar, a six foot lead and hand signals means that the dog can and should be shown on a loose lead.

To imply that Eric's technique relies on stringing a dog, or otherwise causing pain to the dog, shows total misunderstanding of his technique. I suggest you watch some of the training videos on panagenics.com to see just what is involved.

I can think of several people who have used Eric's techniques with great success, not least the person who now organises his workshops in the UK, Andrea Spurr. You'll find a lot of information on the Facebook page Eric Salas All Breed Handling & Grooming - UK Group and several training videos on Panagenics.com

Do you put down your dog winning to a single lesson ?

Most of the time it isn't the dog that needs that one lesson--it's the handler. That's why it's capable of making such a difference. Our own handling habits, conscious or not, can spoil the dog's performance in the ring: talking to the dog, constant eye contact that distracts the dog, incorrect speed and hand position are just some of the things that can be fairly easily corrected.

A choker is a choker QED Stringing up a dog by placing a choker up under the ears inflicts pain when the choker tightens QED

Show training is IMHO the easiest of all forms of dog training & when done correctly from an early age is fairly quick & simple. No need for importing US style robotic methods. A good handler as in any sport can be taught, but there are many gifted handlers who don't need any tuition, they are natural.

Watch the dog not the handler that's what GOOD judges do from watching US shows flashy handling often appears to impress their judges more than a lovely dog & if GSD classes are anything to go by they don't need the dogs to be there as such unsound atypical  dogs winning

>talking to the dog, constant eye contact

Talking to the dog and maintaining eye contact are essentials when showing a free-standing breed! The dog should be focussed on the handler and using its ears and tail in response.

You can maintain contact with the dog without constantly talking to it, as some handlers do. Of course the dog needs to watch you for your signals while stacked and on the move--I was referring to the handler who pilots the dog round the ring while constantly looking down at the dog. There are some extremely successful owner exhibitors who use hand signals to great effect and are worth watching to compare the difference.

I'll just repeat this: the whole point is NOT to inflict pain on the dog by tightening the flat link collar--it is to use the clicking sound that the links make when passing through the loop to tell the dog what you need him or her to do, along with hand signals and change of speed.

As for "robotic methods" I can only assume you have not actually watched the techniques being applied but are generalising about professional handlers in the US. This method is the opposite of "flashy handling"--the overt communication between dog and handler is minimal to the observer and allows the dog to stand out--not the handler.

If you want to win well in the US you have to employ a pro handler no matter what the breed. US pro handlers cannot handle normal pet/showdogs, they keep the dogs with them & "school"them using chokers up under the ears pulled tight so the slightest pressure causes pain, the dogs learn this so the slightest flick acts as a reminder of previous"training" US pro handlers do not handle the "international" type of GSD because stringing up is a big no no with this type of GSD's owner & of course few(handlers) are fit enough to do the amount of gaiting required.

Stringing no matter how you dress it up is based on pain & that has no place in dog activities.

This guy is a pro US handler. So I love to see him doing his "magic" with no choker or lead as I have seen clicker trainers do getting dogs to walk with them without constraints

If you want to win well in the US you have to employ a pro handler no matter what the breed

The Westminster winner 2016 was owner handled--it can be done. You can't compare the show scene in the UK to the US. There are handlers that string dogs up on both sides of the Atlantic and use "happy feet" (!!!!) to train them, etc. Not all do, and having worked with Eric over a number of years I can assure you his technique does NOT involve any pain whatsoever, other than occasional bruising to the handler's ego.

Eric advocates showing on a LOOSE lead, Tommee--watch and learn. He is not your average pro handler and that's why people seek him out. Why not have a look and see before repeating yourself with the same old stereotypes?

Whatever, why does he use a choker & lead anyway ? Surely a person of such talent & ability should be able to control a mere dog by his presence alone? & then pass on that ability to his acolytes like yourself to pass on the mere mortal owners ?

As for Westminster winner ALL dogs at Westminster are champions & the entry is tiny compared to most UK ordinary championship shows. So to win there the dog has already have to have done well & how many of them are owner handled throughout their show careers?

Always good to see an exhibitor with an open mind who is willing to watch, learn and maybe even try something different, Tommee--as opposed to one whose main approach is sneering. Good luck to you

Exhibitor me ? Lolololol my dogs work for living not pounce round showings they need no leads or chokers & fulfill the goals of their breed being in existence. No blue ribbons of the showring for them, they don't need them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7s4-LcGBJc

Definitely teaching to go on a loose lead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Msr4D4sxs

Keeping collar loose

Why use a choker in the first place. This person is being held up as some sort of genius in the realms of dog handling, however he IS using compulsion because the dog is wearing a a choker & lead.

I've seen loads of clicker only trained dogs being shown WITHOUT compulsion not wearing any attachment in training & then shown on a normal collar & lead in the ring.

On the other hand from the official Crufts coverage 99% of the dogs appear to be wearing very very fine chokers up under the ears with a loose lead in stance & tightened in movement. Several of the handlers shortening the lead to ensure the dog knows where the choker is placed.

A lazy way to train dogs is using compulsion especially walking/trotting for the showring. Someone "borrowed"one of my dogs for a fun dog show "breed"class. He rarely wears a lead & NEVER a choker. The young man who borrowed him usually shows a free standing breed(& Border Collies were originally shown free standing, but now sadly are shown "stacked"mainly on chokers), using a flat collar & ordinary lead. The judge complimented the young man on how well "his"dog moved & awarded him the class over a number of dogs who are regularly shown at bigger shows & some at Crufts. No fancy methods needed, just a dog moving naturally & standing naturally. The judge(who has judged at Crufts in the past)didn't know the young man & was very surprised to discover the dog wasn't his, not a show dog & worked for a living, after judging was over. Hasn't changed my view of dog shows being for the enjoyment of the owners rather than the dogs & not really the way to assess a dogs ability & suitability to carry out the KC's Fit for Function !

I use a pretty snake chain which is a check/choker, (on puppies an all chain half check, not as attractive, if they did them in the snake chain I would choose the half checks) but it is for minimising the negative look of a collar, as the breed has a ruff, and anything wider than a thin rolled collar would be unattractive, and the thin rolled collars are not very strong.

I always drop the collar under the chin when moving and free stand.  We hate to see our breed stacked in UK, yet it is how they are shown in USA and Australia, takes away their basic agile look.  the standard says Bold and Energetic, not the effect you get with topping and tailing and placing feet, and lead held over the head.