Can someone explain what would happen in this scenario please?

Someone purchases a dog at 2 years old. She is kc registered and endorsed x and r. The breeder is unaware of the sale.

Can the new purchaser request the endorsements to be lifted if the dog is health tested? No contract from the seller etc.

This is a hypothetical question. I just want to know what the kc's stance is on this please.

ETA : let's assume new purchaser does not contact the original breeder in this instance

Request from whom?

The breeder - sure, if they agree they will lift the endorsements.

The KC - no.

Just to add although this has been mentioned few times on this board - health tests have no relevance to endorsements at all, unless the breeder indicated this relevance in the sale contract. Many people do tend to think however that just because their dog is healthy, the endorsements should be lifted. The answer is no, not unless the breeder wishes it to be so.

So, even though the new purchaser is unaware of any contract etc, there is no way they could request the kc to lift the endorsements?

The breeder would have to do it or be notified at the very least?

Thank you. I just wanted clarification as am currently in a heated argument where I'm being told otherwise.

Yep, only the breeder can lift the endorsements in this situation. The only contract that matters is the original between the breeder and the first purchaser.

Of course they can request it, from the person that placed it.

Whether that person would agree is another matter, especially if the dog has been passed onto new owners without the input from the person placing the endorsement.

If you gained the original persons trust, and the situation and the dogs were suitable then I can't see why not.

Also, for information, it isn't just the breeder who can place an endorsement.  Anyone who has physical possession of the dog and is registered as owner can do so.

Say you were retiring a dog into a Pet home after it had been used for breeding, you as the owner could place endorsements, though the rules re making the new owner aware would apply.

Thank you.

I'm being shot down for saying this.

Apparently, the contract only stands between the breeder and the original buyer. As the new purchaser is unaware of the endorsements the kc should lift them.

I keep saying this isn't true but apparently I need to get my facts straight

> So, even though the new purchaser is unaware of any contract etc

The endorsement will be on the KC registration form which the new owner and seller will be signing, so it behoves the new owner to check that the dog is not endorsed.

I too have heard this and I believe the restriction was lifted, BUT I think the KC is now not allowing this

> new purchaser is unaware of the endorsements the kc should lift them.

The new owner should check the Registration paperwork.

One of the reasons the KC  won't lift, is to prevent people transferring a dog to new ownership to get around the endorsements.

Thanks everyone. I knew I was right!

>Also, for information, it isn't just the breeder who can place an endorsement.  Anyone who has physical possession of the dog and is registered as owner can do so. Say you were retiring a dog into a Pet home after it had been used for breeding, you as the owner could place endorsements, though the rules re making the new owner aware would apply.

That's a good point I never thought of this but it makes sense.

> Thanks everyone. I knew I was right!

and you can prove it:
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8269/endorsements.pdf

"4. Regulation B12b 1), 2) and 3) only apply where the registered owner who originally placed an endorsement
on a dogs record, transfers the dog to a new ownership.

If subsequent transfers take place, the endorsement becomes a matter between the parties involved. In such
cases the registered owner placing the endorsement shall not be responsible if notification of the endorsement
is not given to any new owner, and may exercise his right to decide whether the endorsement be maintained or
removed subject to (5) below.

5. The Kennel Club Board reserves the right to impose, remove or maintain any endorsement. In particular,
the Kennel Club Board reserves the right to impose an additional endorsement “not eligible for entry in any event
held under Kennel Club Rules and Regulations,
nor any unlicensed event recognised by
the Kennel Club”.

I've heard of cases where this has happened. Breeder sells with contract endorsed puppy. Owner sells said dog on and hands over of cert but doesn't state about contract or any info about what is needed to lift endoresements.
2nd owner then wants to breed and contacts the kc who have lifted without any liaison with the breeder.
Some have said it doesn't happen and others have said it's happened to them as breeders.
Sooo what the kc do seems to differ over time.

It should be imo that only the breeder can ever request for them to be lifted. End of

^^^ Or it could just be plain hearsay spread by people who desperately want endorsements lifted in these circumstances. KC can't do it or it will defeat the very point of placing endorsements.

I could understand a very special situation, such as for example the dog/bitch in question is of a very high quality not just a champion but a top dog/bitch where the quality has been confirmed repeatedly by more than just three friends.... maybe also after consultation with the breed club. One can understand the KC possibly lifting the endorsements against the wishes of the breeder here because to do so would be to the benefit of the breed as a whole. That's just me thinking though, never heard of this happening.

> 2nd owner then wants to breed and contacts the kc who have lifted without any liaison with the breeder.

I've heard this too and the KC needs to get their act together.   As far as I'm concerned, if A BREEDER puts endorsements on their immature puppies, which we always did apart from one time when, trusting a fellow breeder we sold unendorsed, and paid the price for that after the pups were sold abroad without our knowledge until AFTER they'd gone, then that breeder's decison should be RESPECTED.   I'd not expect the KC to lift endorsements, at least not without my knowledge.   What's the point endorsing in the first place if this happens!!

>> 2nd owner then wants to breed and contacts the kc who have lifted without any liaison with the breeder.<br />I've heard this too and the KC needs to get their act together.

They have, but the rumour still persists, this may have happened in the past, but this is why the KC brought in the requirement for the initial buyer having to have the endorsement confirmed in writing, with signed for confiormation for endorser to keep as evidence.

"The Kennel Club cannot comment upon the contents of a private contract especially relating to whether any terms described therein have been met or not, but can only look at whether the endorsement has been placed in accordance with our Rules and Regulations.

In order to comply with the Kennel Club rules on placing endorsements, the KC requires that the dog be in the physical possession of the endorser and that they obtain a written agreement, ideally in the form of a private contract, signed by the new owner to acknowledge that they have been informed that an endorsement has been placed. If endorsements are being used, it is helpful to both parties if the contract mentions why these have been placed and under what conditions they would be removed (if at all). This contract must be signed and dated by the purchaser showing that they have been informed of the endorsement prior to or at the date of sale. Even if the breeder chooses not to draw up a full contract, there must still be a document stating which endorsements have been placed, signed by the purchaser."

It's a case of breeders saying it's happened to them rather than owners trying to get this to happen. Breeder clearly were very angry about it all

But how recently, and did they have the signed proof of endorsement placing from original buyer?

I can see how it could happen if the original buyer did not transfer ownership and then passed the dog and signed docs to a third person who on paper would appear to be first owner, so the breeder would not have their signature, but could of course show they had sold pup to someone else initially, so in fact a third party sale.

Everything I have bred has been fully endorsed after a friend who we bought the first four corgis off had a case where someone came and bought a family pet supposedly than sold it to a another person in the Philippines and they found out after it had gone as you can imagine they were devastated and nothing they could do about it

> Everything I have bred has been fully endorsed

Same here, since my first litter in 1985.  My breeder asked me if it put people off (which it didn't when explained it was to protect the dog and breed from exploitation, and poor breeding) as it was not done in my breed at that time, now pretty much everyone dies.,