Hi all

Just looking for some advice. Just under 2 years ago I took on a bitch from a breeder I have known for many years (I have one of her dogs) who was happy with us having her, showing her and possibly having a litter at some point in the future. She can be a bit funny at times and before we had this bitch I went to someone else for another dog puppy and she didn't talk to us for a while! Anyway we kind of got back in touch and had this lovely bitch, seen the breeder at shows etc kept up to date and she even mentioned she might like a puppy off her at some point in the future. I mentioned about endorsements via facebook last year and she said it'd be fine just get all of her health tests done first. We then got her hip and elbow scores last year along with a clear eye certificate which I got renewed yesterday at a champ show where I popped over to her to say hello. The bitch has come into season and we intend to breed her, the breeder approves of the dog, even said she would contact her for us if needed as shes known of her for a while, I said I'd like to as theres only one way to learn and thats by doing it! Anyway she will probably be mated around next weekend so I just double checked with her about the endorsements on facebook before I mate her as I don't want to a litter of pups I can't register and shes now gone suddenly quiet and not replying so I'm starting to worry where I stand if she won't!!! She wanted to come along to one of the matings which I said was fine but not the first one at a weekend as a family member wants to come to see the daddy of the future pups but I said shes welcome to come along to the second mating to which her reply was .... 'no i'll leave it then' ... so she seems a bit miffed about that :(

Don't use Facebook for such important matters - phone and speak to her directly.  You will then get an answer one way or other, and ask why not if she refuses.

Thank you for that, I would normally but I thought at least if I have some form of prof she agreed that would be better than one view against another on what was said in the phone call. I do have the message from last year of her saying she'll be happy to take the endorsements off once she's health tested.
She has said (I know via Facebook so not great) that she'll take them off once the puppies arrive but is that normal practice ?? I feel concerned about getting that far and what if she refuses when the pups are already here, is not a fan of the idea of mating whilst the endorsements are still on :/

The danger with waiting until the litter is on the ground is that, as you say, she could refuse to lift the endorsement. She could, on the other hand, agree to lift the endorsement but try to charge you a large amount to so so. I wouldn't risk mating your bitch this time round unless you get this matter resolved beforehand, better to wait another few months. Even if she sends in a letter to the KC at once, asking them to lift the endorsement, I doubt it would be dealt with before the mating would need to be done - although I always type up the letter, sign it, scan it and send it to the KC if I want to lift an endorsement, it's much simpler and quicker.

No way would I mate my bitch when there are still endorsements on her.   You could well, given this person does sound rather odd, end up with a litter of puppies you cannot register to say nothing of it getting round that you've mated an endorsed bitch - and what about the owner of the stud dog.   If I was presented with an endorsed bitch, I'd not allow her to be bred to my dog!!

And I'd not do any of this via Facebook, which I don't contribute to in any case!!

You can use email to have written evidence.

It s very quick to remove endorsements, if you write a letter, sign it scan it and email to the KC it is done almost straight away.

She can then scan you the confirmation, easy peasy.

Thanks for that, it was the private facebook messenger, thats the main way we regularly contact her as I said we've known her a while so just like speaking to a friend on there ... until she starts being funny.

I agree I'm not risking mating her with endorsements on when she originally said she would remove them prior to mating before changing her mind. The bitch was 2 years old when we took her on and is coming up to 4 this year which was why I didn't want to wait much longer for her first litter (and it would tie in with my time off work with our lambs). As when I had her the ownership was just changed I never signed a contract for her which would have had details on endorsements etc from reading the Kennel Club information

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/8269/endorsements.pdf

it sounds like we would be in the right and that us as the 'new owners' could get them removed .. ?? I will ring the Kennel Club today to ask about it.

> The bitch was 2 years old when we took her on and is coming up to 4 this year which was why I didn't want to wait much longer for her first litter (and it would tie in with my time off work with our lambs). As when I had her the ownership was just changed I never signed a contract for her which would have had details on endorsements etc

Ownership changed how? Did you buy the bitch from the breeder? Or from another person who first bought it from the breeder?

Also, to change the ownership with the KC you need to sign and post over the change of ownership paper with the signature of the previous owner. On that change of ownership paper there is a note of endorsements. Once you signed the paper and posted it to the KC, you have confirmed you were aware of the endorsements when buying the dog.

As you were not the first buyer the endorsements would stand, as the requirement for signed confirmation of endorsements applies between the endorser and the original buyer.

"4. Regulation B12b 1), 2) and 3) only apply where the registered owner who originally placed an endorsement
on a dogs record, transfers the dog to a new ownership.

If subsequent transfers take place, the endorsement becomes a matter between the parties involved. In such
cases the registered owner placing the endorsement shall not be responsible if notification of the endorsement
is not given to any new owner, and may exercise his right to decide whether the endorsement be maintained or
removed

The bitch was pick of the litter and sold to a show owner (who I had previously met at shows) who unfortunately due to a change in circumstances was after new home for her at 18 months old. Around the same time I had contacted the breeder, who I've had a dog off before,  explaining I'd like a bitch puppy if she new of any nice litters as she's now gone into another breed and doesn't have labradors anymore. She explained she has a lovely one from a previous litter but shes 18 months old and would I be interested. I said yes, the current owner was happy as she new us and would be going to a nice home that would also show her and the breeder was happy the bitch was going somewhere she knew too. It was arranged the owner would bring the bitch back to the breeders and I would collect her from there. I went to collect her and the money was paid to her owner as they'd originally brought her and I just needed to transfer her ownership.
As she had her owners affix on the end of her name I wanted that removed if I were to be showing her. To do this, only the breeder can apply for that so the bitch did have to be transferred back into the ownership of the breeder on paper to apply for the affix to be removed and then transferred to me as the new owner. So technically her ownership was transferred from the breeder to me .... ??

> So technically her ownership was transferred from the breeder to me .... ??

If this did in fact happen then it would seem yes, you are in a better position. The breeder would have had to get you to sign, that the endorsements were explained to you.

Thank you for and yes that is exactly what happened. And through showing etc I am aware of endorsements so I asked a year ago before health tested her if they would be removed before paying out for the tests to which she said yes, get the health tests done and she'll keep them on for now and will remove the endorsements before I come to mate her. The bitch has great health tests, is coming up to 4 years old and as a family we've very excited about the prospect of our first litter, she came into season the other day, I informed the breeder the day she did, shes approved of the stud dog, I contacted the stud dog owner to make arrangements and asked the breeder to ensure they're removed who has today said she won't until the pups are here !

You have two options really. First is to phone the KC now and get them to lift the endorsements which they should do once they contact the breeder and the breeder fails to provide them with your signature. But your relationship with the breeder is likely to get ruined again. Second is wait until the puppies are born, and if the breeder doesn't remove the endorsements then phone the KC and get them to do it. You will have a solid reason for going straight to the KC in this situation, because puppies need to be registered and breeder is not lifting the endorsements. The breeder can still get angry with you but then she would be completely nuts and perhaps better for you overall.

Well the breeder got back to me and said she's not refusing to lift them, just not until the pups arrive which is what she does with everyone . . But this isn't what was agreed.
I still feel unsure on that so contacted the very experienced stud dog owner who said that it is not common practice and she should remove them, the stud dog owner even mentioned the breeder and said she's had problems with her before not taking endorsements off a bitch that went to one of their stud dogs. In the end they went to the kennel club and got them removed so I feel slightly more confident now!

That is totally unacceptable.  You can't risk having pups born which are then unable to be registered, for one. 

For two:  WHY is she refusing to lift them until pups are born?  It's not like she is waiting for more health tests or for any other reason.  I can see no point to it.  Other than, if there isn't a pregnancy, she gets to keep the endorsements on and retains control and the option to change her mind next time you attempt a mating.

Frankly, I am ape shit on your behalf and I don't even know you (hahahahaha).  I would DEMAND she lift the endorsements now and I'd pursue it with the KC too.

Thank for for that, its so frustrating when shes known what we were planning and having a litter is a big thing for us, its our first bitch and we were full of excitement and hope.
I did get back in touch saying I'm not being funny, I didn't think it was common practice to mate a bitch whilst the endorsements were still on as that defeats the object and wasn't what was agreed anyway and I won't risk being left with a litter of unregistered puppies later down the line if she changed the goalposts again as it has never been mentioned before about waiting until a pregnancy scan confirms or the pups arrive. I reminded her of the date she said she would lift the endorsements once the health tests were done and I was at the time of mating her ... I have had the health tests done and am at the time of mating her, I have a health tested dog lined up so I don't see why she won't as there is no benefit to her either way. I said I had made a couple of enquiries and it is not common practice for bitches to be mated with endorsements still on and that they should be removed prior to mating and asked for my own peace of mind / risk of unregistered pups / as agreed, that she removes them before I mate the bitch.

I will not reply any further to her and will contact the Kennel Club on Monday and send a signed and scanned application from myself that they be removed as I feel I have done everything that was required and agreed. I will also include copies of all health certificates conducted and the details of the bitch from that breeder as she was unreasonable with another owner who they have had endorsement issues with before.

Good luck!!

I too have heard of breeders not lofting restrictions until puppies are born.  I cannot understand why, if bitches health tests have been done and are acceptable and in your case the breeder is happy with your choice of stud dog, then why won't she lift them?  I wonder if she will want some sort of payment when the litter is born and/or have a puppy from the litter

I will also include copies of all health certificates conducted and the details of the bitch from that breeder as she was unreasonable with another owner who they have had endorsement issues with before.
If you can print anything off - even from f/b stating the circumstannces when she will agree to remove endorsements -  then send that as well.