As per the title of the post, does anyone know if this law has yet become legislation or is it still going through parliament?

To finish the post I started. I viewed a litter of puppies yesterday. It was a rather strange viewing as it turned out that the breeder had not actually bred the puppies but belonged to her son's partner. She had two litters of puppies, one pure bred and the other a mixed breed.

These puppies were being 'housed' by the breeder at her mother in laws home as breeder 'worked full time' ..some breeder to breed two litters of puppies, identical ages and not be able to look after them!

I was shown into the lounge where the mother in law, the breeder, the breeders partner, the breeders two adult daughters and grandchildren where all sat to 'attention' waiting for me to arrive..very uncomfortable viewing and quite intimidating. The breeders family had come just to watch me view the puppies.

First of all, the mother in law brought in the stud dog..holding him on her lap, he never put a foot to the ground. Next she went for the mother of the puppies who was to put it mildly,  'shit scared' of everyone. Plonked her by my side, and poor dog shook uncontrollable and drooled with anxiety. She was stained up all four legs with urine. She also never put a foot to the floor.

Mother in law said she could not bring the puppies in at the same time as they would want to feed off the mother and she had just weened them??

She then brought in the two puppies- not quite seven weeks old - toy breed , told me I could take one before 8 weeks if I wanted to. Both puppies just as terrified as the mother and shot out of sight, under the settee.

The owner of the puppies and the dam, never so much as interacted with either her bitch or the puppies, and I would hazard a good guess that they did not know her. Goodness knows if the puppies mother is actually the 'puppies mother'??

At the moment I am totally gobsmacked. Still trying to make sense of what I experienced as I still cannot work out who bred the puppies and if either the sire or the dam were the actual parents of the two puppies I viewed.

Anyway, back to the original question: Re; something called Lucy's Law which is going through parliament at the moment. I know there is an early day motion for this legislation that will mean that a puppy cannot be sold unless it is in the presence of its mother, and no third party sales. This is to stop puppy farming, but will also apply to anyone breeding dogs. Does anyone know if this has actually been passed as all I can come up with is the Telegraph stating it is illegal to sell a puppy unless seen in the presence of its mother.

Bit long winded. Thanks if you read to the end.

OMG!!!

Sounds like what you viewed was a classic case of puppy farmed puppies being passed off as bred from pets in a home. The first thing I do with puppy buyers is let the adult dogs loose on them to say hello, both so that I can see the reaction of the potential buyer, and so they can see the friendliness of my dogs. Plus you can eaisly spot that the dogs are USED to being there.

Don't know the answer to the question unfortunately.

Also what about Orphan pups?  I suppose there must be an age limit too?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-proposals-on-puppy-welfare

Thanks Dawn,

Plans under consideration include:
Ensuring that licensed dog breeders must show puppies alongside their mother before a sale is made.
Tightening regulations so that puppy sales are completed in the presence of the new owner – preventing online sales where prospective buyers have not seen the animal first.
Insisting licensed dog breeders can only sell puppies they have bred themselves.
Regulating adverts, including on the internet, by ensuring licensed sellers of all pets, including puppies, include the seller’s licence number, country of origin and country of residence of the pet in any advert for sale.

Looks like the key word is LICENSED, fingers  crossed they won't go down the everyone must have a license route. Or if they do, how about more than three litters in a five year period. I quite like my councils more than 2 intact bitches rule, 5 litters a year for some councils is far too generous imvho.

As brainless said how do they tell the genuine orphans from the fraudsters, puppy farmed imports etc....

> Or if they do, how about more than three litters in a five year period. I quite like my councils more than 2 intact bitches rule, 5 litters a year for some councils is far too generous imvho.

That's what I want to see.  I know a lot of reputable breeders don't want to be licenced but the fact is, the vast, vast majority of breeders are not reputable, and they are the problem - it's not a few bad eggs, it's most of them.  3 litters in 5 years sounds like a good number to me.

I'd like to see a cap on prices too, as I know health testing is costly but I cannot believe that it costs the equivalent of £1500 per pup to health test a frenchie!  Talk about an incentive to breed.

How I'll these large licensed puppy farms fit in ? The licensing there already doesn't seem to be improving things   surely the councils are indirectly encouraging such places

I wonder how this will work for licenced dealers who buy in litters and cannot have the mothers present as they will still be in the puppy farm!  Potential puppy buyers really should be educated but so often over the years I have people come who visited litters which were far from ideal, common comments are ones that I am sure we have all heard. Not KC because they are only pets, can't see Mum because she is with my sister/protective of her puppies/upsets her/just weaned etc etc. Seeing puppies with their mother is a must for buyers but it all hinges on who is going to police any legislation, it's fairly obvious that use of mobile phones whilst driving is still going on and has anyone heard of someone being fined for hogging the middle lane on the motorway yet. I think the only way is to broadcast puppy buying guidelines as far and wide as possible, particularly covering the ways that puppy farmers cover up their activities, I also suspect that modern life fosters the  "I want it now" scenario, there are too many people who don't want to go on a list or wait more than a few days to get a puppy. Thank goodness it's not possible to buy them on-line and have them couriered in 24 hours.

Because from what I understand, puppy farms will be no longer as they will be forced to cease trading along with pet shops such as Dogs4us. The Manchester one is closing down - hurray from all that boycotting outside. Virtually no puppies left just before xmas. They are turning it into some sort of builders merchants I believe. Shocking place, I have policed it often to see how the staff treat the puppies - tormenting them because they think it funny. Sorry got a bit off track there.

I understand that the legislation has been passed (correct me if I am wrong - head all over the place today) and will come into being next July or thereabouts.

> I know a lot of reputable breeders don't want to be licenced

Problem here is for a hobby breeder breeding within their home, is that kennelling type provisions and change of use may be required, which would involve approval by neighbours, possibly changing Council Tax to business rates etc.

Most of us that breed a litter or so a year have adhoc arrangements within our homes  for whelping and puppy rearing, and would not want to be subjected to commercial type rearing requirements.

I quite like my councils more than 2 intact bitches rule,

Oh gosh no! That would force you to spay bitches you may not want to spay yet. I have several that I have no intention of breeding from again, but one is chasing a third CC and I don't want the spay coat on her, and also I don't like spaying before the age of 8 just in case. What if something happens, an accident or a new unknown genetic illness for instance, and I am left with just one bitch to continue with, and she has been spayed? No thanks. My council has the rule 2 bitches used for producing puppies with the purpose to sell. My purpose is to breed the next pup for myself to show, not to have the entire litter just to sell. They informed me that as I can prove that I am showing I would not need a license as I never breed a litter with the purpose of selling them all. I just have to sell what I don't keep.

3 litters in 5 years sounds like a good number to me.

Yes -if it's a large(ish) breed. What about a small toybreed that may have one or two pups per litter, and must not be too old before being bred from? It complicates things. You could have 5 litters in 5 years totalling 5-10 pups from one breed, or the same number of litter in the same time period totalling 50-60 pups in a different breed. It's very difficult. You can't go on the number of pups for actual rules/law/licensing, as you can end up with abnormally small or large litters in any breed. But going on number of litters per 5 years is unfair to the toybreeders that could end up with just 3 pups in 5 years from 3 litters, and a breeder of a larger breed could end up with 36! Personally I think 2 litters per year is fine. Nobody should need more than that.

And plans will also address the breeding of dogs with harmful genetic disorders.

These proposed reforms will apply tighter requirements to more breeders and sellers and will tackle the sale of weak underage puppies, the breeding of unhealthy dogs and dogs with severe genetic disorders,

It's not all bad, but, it's all confusing as to how they plan to go about everything(s) to enforce many things nation wide.

Are they a planed set of laws just for England under DEFRA rules or are they for England & Wales, as many laws are, or are they UK wide......eh dear more canine illiterate professional politicians writing things on a subject they know very little about

> Because from what I understand, puppy farms will be no longer as they will be forced to cease trading along with pet shops such as Dogs4us.

Unfortunately, this alone will not stop puppy farmers.  Not by a long way.  Many already sell direct to the public, and those that don't will likely start, once this comes into force.  It'll dent their profits for a bit but they will just change approach.  There's already a widespread problem of puppy farmed litters being passed off as bred in a family home, as Boo16's description shows.

Puppy farms won't stop until puppy farms themselves are no longer able to trade and make profit at all.