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Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / I do not want to lift Endorsement
- By bigbe [gb] Date 31.12.17 13:33 UTC
I will try to keep this saga as short as I can.
I sold a puppy with a breeding endorsement, the new owners were fully aware and signed a contract to that effect. This is their first pedigree puppy. Within weeks of owning him they were asking if I would lift the endorsement in case I wanted to use him, to which I said no as I have kept the sister. They did well with him as first time exhibitors and asked again, I said no for the same reason. When he was 1 they came back again and said that they had been approached and would I lift the endorsement. I asked who wanted to use them and after making enquiries found that these were not reputable breeders so said no. 6 months later they asked again with the same reason, different person. Again after making enquiries found this was another puppy farmer so refused. Then at Midland Counties they asked again giving another name that I was aware of and while this is not a puppy farmer it is someone who has a dubious reputation among fellow exhibitors/breeders so I again said no.  This has led to them demanding I lift the endorsement. I contacted the KC who have said if they were aware of the endorsement, (which they have acknowledged), the KC will not remove the endorsement. I have told the owners and they admitted the KC had told them the same thing. In the contract I do say I can lift the the endorsement if they abide by the code of ethics of the Assured Breeder Scheme. Their actions cause me to believe that they just wish to use him at stud randomly and I am refusing to lift it. I have now had a letter saying they will be taking me to court if I do not lift the endorsement with 14 days.
I just wondered if anyone else has had this happen and if so what was the result? My view is that if a court overturns my decision then it sets a dangerous precedent. More importantly makes the placing of these endorsements useless!
- By onetwothreefour Date 31.12.17 14:05 UTC Upvotes 2
In the endorsement, what exact conditions did you specify had to be met, to lift it?  Or did you not specify any? 

I don't think they have a leg to stand on if it goes to court and will just end up with a lot of legal fees...

But I would contact Trevor Cooper at Dog Law and ask for his advice.  I think a phone consult with him costs about £50 but it's well worth it.
- By MamaBas [gb] Date 31.12.17 14:39 UTC Edited 31.12.17 14:41 UTC
I'd not only talk to Trevor Cooper or at least his firm, and at the same time contact the KC again, sending them a copy of the letter you have now received.

Unfortunately if you did this -    "In the contract I do say I can lift the the endorsement if they abide by the code of ethics of the Assured Breeder Scheme".... it could mean this situation isn't as clear-cut as it should have been - endorsed not for breeding means NOT FOR BREEDING.

I think you are right about them wanting to use the dog as a cash machine - good job he's not a bitch!!    But at the same time, the dog was bought by these people (so he's their dog) and actually just as with a bitch, he could still be used at stud - all that being endorsed really means is any puppies he sired should not be able to be KC Registered, even if these days, given how much unregistered purebred puppies are being sold for, that doesn't mean much!

How very upsetting for you.   People eh.
- By Tommee Date 31.12.17 14:58 UTC Upvotes 1
Of course they can use him as a stud, but his puppies would not be eligible for KC full register registration. KC endorsements do not stop the owner breeding from their dogs so you are not stopping them from breeding from him just from putting his puppies on the full KC breed register. There is nothing to stop them registering the puppies individually on the activities register without pedigrees. The only breed that cannot be registered on the AR is the Border Collie, they have to be registered as Working Sheepdogs

Any legal action would fail because you are not preventing them breeding from their dog only from registering his offspring on the breed register.

JMHO if course
- By Goldmali Date 31.12.17 15:26 UTC
Always best to clearly state conditions in your contract. The ABS rules isn't anything very specific so if they have carried out the relevant health tests for the breed, technically they will have adhered to your conditions, surely?
- By bigbe [gb] Date 31.12.17 15:44 UTC
They are not members of the scheme and are asking me to lift it for those not on the scheme and I now do not trust them that is why I am saying no
- By Tectona [gb] Date 31.12.17 17:54 UTC
Did you say they need to be members? Your post says they only need to abide by the guidelines/ethics of the scheme. Have they done that?
- By Ells-Bells [gb] Date 31.12.17 19:01 UTC
How very sad, I hope the KC uphold your view.  I do think the owners will be wasting their time and money in trying to get the restriction lifted - can you imagine the number of others that will then try it, making the KC's policies useless.

Please let us know the outcome
- By Noora Date 31.12.17 21:33 UTC Upvotes 4
I'm afraid if you have only said they must adhere to assured breeder scheme and if they have done that, they have filled what you note in the contract so you are kind of wrong in not lifting the endorsements. Does your contract say you must approve the selected partners/breeders that are to use him?

Have you asked them why they are so keen for him to be used? Do they want a puppy by him? You say they are first time pedigree dog owners, they must be thrilled of people asking to use him and by the third time of you refusing to lift because of the bitch/breeder, they probably feel a bit miffed and that you are just not lifting for the sake of it. They obviously do not know the ins and outs of the world in the breed - they need a mentor and as a breeder of the boy, you could have taken that position?

Is he of quality and lines that would benefit the breed? If you were to help them in finding the right type of breeder/bitch? It's obviously too late to work with them about this now but maybe they actually wanted to take their first steps in to world of the breed and are just green and in need of mentoring by somebody with experience...

In the end they have made the effort of showing him and he has done well to prove himself? They have health tested him? And as you know of the people wanting to use him, they have not just gone for pet people round the corner or somebody in the park asking to use him.

If I was them and had fulfilled what was asked and been in touch about bitches etc I would probably be a bit upset, not sure I would go as far as threatening with court, but would definitely feel let down.

They are green so probably do not understand the real reasons you are refusing to lift; the wrong type of breeders, the effort you have put in your lines over the years and not wanting them used/got by that type of breeder, the risk of your lines flooding the breed in hands of that kind of breeder etc.
- By JoStockbridge [gb] Date 31.12.17 22:37 UTC Edited 31.12.17 22:39 UTC
"They are not members of the scheme and are asking me to lift it for those not on the scheme and I now do not trust them that is why I am saying no"

Does the wording on your contract actualy state they must join the assured breeders scheme or just meet the same requirements?
If latter have they had the health testing recommended to assured breeders to do? This may be enough to claim they have met your conditions for lifting.
As to the people wanting to use him not being on the scheme, cant assured breeders can allow their males to be used by non assured breeders? If they can the bitch owner not being a member has nothing to do with your condition to lift I'm afraid.

When you sold the puppy to them did they say at any time they were wanting it for breeding?

They are likley hoping to scare you Into lifting with the threat of court.
- By bigbe [gb] Date 31.12.17 22:47 UTC
At the time of purchase he was only a pet and no they did not say they would want to breed with him.  The reason I am not happy is that the first 2 times of asking they would have let him be used by puppy farmers who do not health screen their dogs, this is against the ethics of the Scheme. The 3rd time of asking is for someone who has a very bad reputation in the breed. So now I do not trust them enough to lift the endorsement. The KC have told me they will support me and not lift it if they make an appeal as they were aware of the endorsements at the time of purchase. I worry that if I lift it, this is what they will do. It is not just about my breeding lines it is out of respect for those lines that come from the studs I have used and their owners trusted me with.
- By MamaBas [gb] Date 01.01.18 08:25 UTC
When selling a puppy, this (breeding from a bitch or allowing a dog to be used at stud) could always happen, endorsed or not.  As said, the only thing you'd be doing by endorsing and not agreeing to later lifting the endorsement, is preventing them from registering the puppies with the KC.   Just as adding a 'not for export' endorsement would only mean that dog couldn't be registered with the KC of his/her new country, not stopping the dog from leaving the country.  

As for picking up 'your lines', yes that can happen - I allowed somebody to use one of my stud dogs assuming she'd endorse all the resulting puppies not for breeding.  She didn't and some years later I found that one of the bitches from that litter, sold to what was a pet owner, was put in whelp by a stud dog of another well-known breeder who took back 2 male puppies.  Thankfully she was reputable BUT nevertheless I have always felt she got my bloodlines by the back door.

I too think these people are pushing you with the threat of Court action.   If you can't shut this down, maybe you have to call their bluff.
- By bigbe [gb] Date 04.01.18 08:29 UTC Upvotes 3
Have now taken Legal Advice from an expert in this field, and it seems that the courts hardly ever force this to happen. They also said I have a very strong case so not to worry. I also asked the approximate cost of bringing this action and it can be VERY costly. So I am going to offer to have the dog back to enable her to buy another puppy free from endorsements so can use him at stud if she wants. The court will see this as an attempt to resolve the issue, should this action be pursued.
Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / I do not want to lift Endorsement

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