Thoughts and advice please.

Hate the word 'runt', but had an appointment to view a litter of puppies yesterday, one specific pup out of the litter actually. It was a female of the particular colour that I wanted.

Pups KC reg and relevant health tests for sire and dam done, and checked..so that all okay.

This puppy is half the size of her litter mates. I understand she was same size born, but constantly had to vie for teats. Puppies weaned, 7 weeks old and she is just as active as the other puppies. Told she is now eating well and no problem pushing her way in for food.

Now my dilemma is: I have no problem with puppy as I would prefer a bitch on the lighter size any way, but not having the experience of under sized puppies, are there any thoughts that there may be undiagnosed health issues that could cause this? She may well catch up and I won't be seeing her for another two weeks, so she may well have changed by then, but don't won't to hang on or mess breeder about. I told her I would let her know later today so she is reserved until then.

If the pup was the same size born, any breeder worth their salt would not leave a pup to lose weight through having to fight for a teat. My initial thought which could be way off, was the potential for a liver shunt.

I had a pup half the size of the others. She was vet checked 3 times and nothing wrong could be found. But I wasn't prepared to sell her as she was so extremely small. A friend and very experienced ex breeder of the breed asked if she could have her as a pet, on the understanding that she knew the pup might not be 100 % healthy and might not have a normal life span. Perfect solution for me. The pup is now almost 10 months old. She has grown but her movement is odd and not normal. She's going to need all sorts of xrays and other tests. She's perfectly happy but she is not normal and the only thing the vet could find from a few days of age up until 3 months was the small size. So personally I would not buy such a pup and I'm very glad I didn't agree to sell mine -many people asked as she obviously was super cute.

One of the pups from my dogs litter was born not breathing and it took the breeder about half an hour to get her going. The breeders decided to keep her. She ended up being much smaller then all the others, but has thrived and is the boss of her two brothers who were also kept. She's still smaller then average for the breed.

Is the the only bitch, as in most breeds the bitches are smaller than the dogs so this could exasgerate the difference.

I have found puppy size in litters a poor indicator of eventual adult size.

In my first litter I had a pup born half the size of next smallest, at only 6oz, and she became an average size adult by 11 months when I saw her next.  by 8 weeks she was 3/4 the size of her sisters, but was 9 pounds the minimum size t 8 weeks I have found to make full adult size in my breed, where the adult bitches re around 18 - 20kg, and ideally 19 1/2 at shoulder.

on the other hand I have had pups really big in the litter and not go on to make big adults.  My youngest champion bitch is spot on standard yet was bigger than her sisters and most of her brothers who mostly have outgrown her.

in another litter the biggest pup is now a smallish adult.

I have usually found any completion differences are negated once pups are well into weaning.

My German shepherd was the runt of the litter. It was mainly due to the bitch not having enough milk and the breeder being too lazy to do anything about it. I rehomed him as he couldn't sell him.
Initially he walked very loosely and was about half the size of my neighbours bitch of the same age and breed. After 3 months of good food and playing in the garden he was the same size as her. I neutered him at 2 years old and he was 38kgs. He's a big dog and will be ten years old next year. He's a little stiff in his hips now but still very active and my great boy. I wouldn't be put off her size as long as she is active and eating well.

I'm still torn:

To answer Brainless: There are 4 bitches in the litter plus 3 boys, all equal size at the moment, other than one of the boys, slightly larger but he is the bold and pushy one so would get the best of what was on offer.

This girl is half the size and weight, and I mean exactly that. She stands out like a sore thumb as she is not slightly smaller but tiny.

Thinking about it, I would assume that they started weaning around 4 weeks or so and the mother has not fed them for over a week so completely weaned. If she was being pushed of the nipple but was not getting as much weaning food as she liked - would she have made up any weight in a couple of weeks?

She was acting completely normally, playing with the others and holding her own in this area.

So this begs the question. Is she naturally small and a small eater, or is she still being pushed out of the food, or is there a medical reason.

I completely agree that any breeder worth their salt would see that the smallest fed first, or definitely not got pushed out, or supplemented etc.

What I now have to add into the mix is that my daughter emailed her this afternoon to see if she still had a bitch available and she said yes, but when I first contacted her and made arrangements to go yesterday, she told me that she only had the one bitch available.

So, was she lying yesterday to try and sell this small bitch, or, has someone since yesterday decided they don't want a bitch they had booked? Is this breeder unethical? Although I got her details from the particular breed club of ethical breeders. Or rather I left my details with the club and she contacted me.

I have left it that I would like to go see the puppy again on Sunday. Breeder happy with this arrangement. I would hope by then that she may have picked up some weight, but it will give me a chance to see if the discrepancy is even more obvious or the gap has closed, if you get what I mean.

If she is still very much smaller, I may request that she get her checked over properly, with a vet report - if she is willing to do this. If not then I will definitely walk away.

So frustrating as I have waited nearly a year to get a puppy from the 'right' breeder, who properly health tests and this lady says she has been breeding, showing and judging for the past 40 years. I hoped she was reliable. We will see.

Is there any Pituary Dwarfism in the breed. Most people only think of this in GSDs but it isn't simply genetic & does occur genetically in other breeds as well as having other causes.

My pup was extremely small for her breed and weighed 3 kgs at 8 weeks when the others were around 6 kgs. Also straight from birth. The first time I brought her to the vet it was to check if she had something obviously wrong with her such as a bad heart, in which case I would have had her put to sleep. So she was checked at a few days,  at 7 weeks, 8 weeks and 10 weeks (was remembering wrong when I said 3 times, it was 4) and this was by 3 different vets. Nobody found anything wrong with her yet at around 6 months she started with possibly neurological signs. So I would not be satisfied with a vet check.

Thanks Goldmali,

Its what to do other than have another look at her to see if she has picked up any weight this week and compare her to the others. I am very much afraid of taking the wrong pup, but also letting go a pup that may just catch up and turn out to be wonderful.

I do value everyones input.

What breed is this puppy, and what is the usual weight range for puppies of this age?

If I was the breeder and had a pup that much smaller than it's siblings by 8 weeks I certainly would expect pups to be a minimum size to make correct adult size (in my experience it's around the 9lb mark for my breed, had pups rage from just under that to 14 pound porkers, with 10lb +/- a pound most usual), so much less than that and I would be running pup on to say 12 weeks and see if it started seriously catching up.

Is she selling this pup to you at full price?  If a pup is half the size of others in the litter, I think a responsible breeder would be negotiating the price and flexible on it.  In the litter one of my dogs came from, there was another pup which was teeny.  He was kept on longer by the breeder, as Brainless said - she kept him till 12wks.  He grew some, but not to normal size but he seemed very healthy.  The breeder sold him at a discounted price to a 'special' home.  I haven't heard more since so I don't know how he turned out.

Do you want to show the pup at all or have any concerns about her size other than health-wise?  If you want to show, or do any dog sport which is dependent on size, I wouldn't risk it - it would be bonkers.

Have you actually met the breeder and the pups or is all this going on by email only?  I think you will get a better sense of any porkies re what pups are available if you could meet her and get a sense of her - if not possible to meet, try to talk on the phone.  You could easily say your daughter has been in touch and been told there is another pup available and put that to her...

If you do take the pup, make sure there is a contract saying what happens if a health defect is discovered within X amount of time.  Take the pup to your vet and ask for a very thorough physical.  This won't pick up issues without invasive testing though - which would be overkill without any physical symptoms yet. 

Frankly and personally, I wouldn't want a pup that small and would long ago have already walked away...

I have obviously met the pup (onetwothreefour) hence why I know that this puppy is that much smaller. And yes, she is the same price as the others.

She is perfectly (at this time) in proportion and although she is tiny, she does not appear malnourished. Although there is a breed standard and preferred size and weight, as long as the dog is in perfect proportion, it does not preclude being shown.

I am on the verge of walking away, hence why I am trying to get advice, especially from breeders, who may have had such a puppy in one of their own litters, and the outcome.

It may very well have come about by neglect of the breeder not ensuring that the  puppy gets her fair share of milk/food on offer. She lives alone, has horses, other farm animals and is extremely busy and stretched. Although that is really no excuse.

I have also said I would not take her at 8 weeks, I would want her to be a couple of weeks older.

I need to really go back and go much further into detail with this breeder, and see how the puppy is doing before I make a final decision.

Unfortunately I think it’s unlikely that the pup will have caught up with its siblings if they are significantly smaller at this point, in fact if they have put on a lot of weight in a short space of time I would also be worried. Getting a pup should be about getting the right one no matter how long you have to wait, rather than taking a pup that there are serious concerns about. I would walk away from the potential heartache especially with what the breeder has said to your daughter too. I would also not be considering buying from a breeder that has so much on their plate that they can’t even monitor the food intake of less than a 4 week old litter. If there is anything wrong long term they don’t sound like they would care all that much.

I totally agree with Alfiedshmalfie.  I don't really understand spending more time agonising over it, going back to the breeder etc.

I don't know what breed it is we're talking about, but the majority of breeds have a minimum height specification in the breed standard.  If the dog does not meet this (which, at half the size of its littermates, would be unlikely), the dog can't be shown...

When I have a litter, everything else in my life stops and I dedicate myself to raising the litter, providing them with an enriched environment and starting training and socialisation with them before leaving me.  These things make a huge difference to the dogs these pups will become...

If you are saying the breeder should now keep the pup additional weeks, you are leaving the pup in this less than ideal environment during the valuable socialisation period... not something I'd want to do.

This is the bit that worries me about this pup:

‘This puppy is half the size of her litter mates. I understand she was same size born, but constantly had to vie for teats. Puppies weaned, 7 weeks old and she is just as active as the other puppies. Told she is now eating well and no problem pushing her way in for food.’

So the breeder if I’ve got that right, the breeder is saying that pup was the same size as the others born but failed to thrive so much and had her growth stunted significantly just because she couldn’t get to the teats? Unless you are talking a massive litter a hungry pup will squeak and squeal until they push their way in somewhere. So now she isn’t just a little bit smaller, she is half the size of her litter mates, that’s a significant delay in growth.

Having bred only two litters of pups (under the assured breeder scheme and with a mentor) I was weighing my pups every day, monitoring them, their temperature, their full tummies and making sure Mum had every whim attended to. This breeder was so busy and didn’t monitor this pup to the point that she was quite open in knowing the pup was having to fight for food, yet did nothing that you know of about it.  They are only fed for four weeks that’s a significant lack of care to know this is happening but not do anything. The pup now miraculously is able to eat well and doesn’t have any problems pushing in for food where she couldn’t earlier. Despite all this the breeder still wants the full price and has potentially been economical with the truth with your daughter.

Walk away, this is neither the breeder or the pup you should be going for.

I PM'd the OP the URL to my weekly blog for the litter my tiny pup was in as it shows pretty well what a big size difference it was all along, and in my case most certainly not caused by not enough milk/food. It was NOT a case of being the smaller pup in the litter which then caught up -I've had them and this was different. At 10 months of age currently the tiny one has reached a decent height but weighs 6 kilos less than the other two bitches (18 as opposed to 24 -and my 24 kg sister is very lean, too lean in fact). If anyone else would like to have a peek, let me know.

Thank you Goldmali for the blog. It was very kind of you and certainly shows the difference.

In my last litter I had one that was just a tiny bit smaller than the other 4 at birth, and although I spent 6 days putting her on a teat and stopping the others pushing her off, she didn't gain as much as they did. On day 6 she gained so little that I went and got some puppy milk and supplemented her several times a day, and she gained much the same as the others from then on, except that as she had fallen behind, she did remain smaller than the rest. She happened to be the best show prospect so I kept her, and she won loads as a puppy though is currently a bit immature against the others in Junior, particularly the boys! She did go through a picky eating stage for a few months which probably didn't help with that. She is lively and healthy and bright as a button though!

In one of my GSD litters was a bitch pup half the size of the others when born, she was still half size at 8 weeks but went on to make a decent size adult certainly most people would not have known she was small to start with. In another unrelated litter I had 7 normal size puppies but it became apparent at around 4/5 weeks that one bitch was not growing, thriving but not  getting bigger, she turned out to be a dwarf, she was homed free to a friend and is still alive at 7 years old but half the size of an average shepherd.

I get the feeling that you are about to walk away from this puppy and think you should go with your gut feelings, just because someone has shown/bred/judged for 40 years it does not make them a good breeder and sometimes their reluctance to "let go" of their former glory leads to standards slipping.  At the very least I would ask her to keep the puppy for a few more weeks but born same size and not growing would be a worry for me.