My daughter's 4 month old puppy has recently started trying to hump her 8 year old son.  Today the puppy has been humping my daughter and even her boyfriend.  He grips her clothing with his teeth and just won't stop.  She is convinced it's dominance and is now worried about the future with the children.  I am trying to persuade her that it is probably just his age together with excitement.  What do others think and also suggestions for the best way to deal with this situation.  Thanks.

Humping is not just dominance, it can be through excitement. Stop the puppy by diverting what he is doing, a firm no. Some think its funny when this behaviour starts at a young age & don't nip it in the bud to start with, it then starts to get out of control & then some think if the dog is castrated this will stop...not necessarily!!

Thanks Lexy.  Yes, of course she tells him no and tries to divert his attention but it's not working too well at present.  (The puppy's own mother scarred him because he wouldn't take no for an answer).  I'm sure the excitement of Christmas has a lot to do with this plus he does get very excited by the mere presence of the children even when they are just sitting watching TV.  He's a lovely puppy, totally nutty but we're going to have to work very hard on the humping I think.

Most of this behaviour is dominance and appears when the dog gets over-excited.    I'd suggest that now may be a good time to start to increase the exercise you give him, depending on the breed in question and what sort.   It's unwise to do too much 'controlled exercise' on hard ground (roadwork) at under 6 months, but getting him out so he can run around at his own opace, should rid him of too much 'excess energy'!   But yes, stop this behaviour as soon as it starts.   Once it's 'at it', he will fight back when stopped.   And no, castration probably won't stop this because it's normally not anything to do with sex.

Humping has very little to do with dominance in fact is usually NOT dominance. A dog(male or female)can hump from as young as 2 weeks of age, I've seen puppies in the whelping box doing this before their eyes open. The action is self rewarding for the dog & can start to occur at any age.

In young puppies it is natural, but not acceptable to owners. Making a big fuss about it, pulling pushing the puppy off makes it more excitable & enjoyable. Like puppy nipping refusing to join in the"game"aligned with distraction & possibly a house line to get the puppy's attention remotely usually can curtail the behaviour

Spot on Tommee.

It is certainly not dominance, as dogs cannot be dominant over people and vice versa.  It's a myth, built on misinterpretation of wolf behaviour, which is irrelevant when dealing with dogs (much as we don't look to chimpanzees to explain human behaviour).  If your sister clings on to the idea, invite her to google it!  Plenty of information out there as to exactly why dogs are not and cannot be dominant over us.

Indeed, humping is very rarely dominance between dogs - again it's excitement, nerves, play, or being unsure exactly what to do - 'I don't know what to do here but that feels good so I'll do that' - endorphins making the dog feel better.  That is the self rewarding part, too.  When Linc arrived he humped everyone for two weeks purely through nerves from suddenly going from being a singleton for his first year to living with 7 other dogs!

Sometimes I wonder where I've been for all these years, admittedly with my one main breed    Or is it just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing?

We are dealing with DOMESTIC DOG and for me, regardless of what 2 people say on here, humping, other than for natural reasons (mating) has a lot to do with dominance, excitement, being silly.   NOTHING will convince me otherwise because I've SEEN IT and it's generally the only explanation for this behaviour (although I have sometimes asked myself why a dog would want to domininate a pillow!! ).     And dogs most certainly can attempt to dominate a meek owner.

Hoping for a (more) PEACEFUL NEW YEAR!!

Later -  I did a bit of research because all this putting me down makes me question myself ............   here's a link which may or may not be worth reading (OP).
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201209/why-dogs-hump

My last two bitches would hump each other, normally after a play session. First one would hump the other then they would swap round for the second humping session. It only lasted a few seconds and I felt they were reestablishing the status quo and dissipating the excitement of playtime. It was always the same way round, A would hump B then B would hump A. It never happened (as far as I'm aware) that B would hump A first.

If you search enough you will find articles for both sides dominance theory & debunking dominance theory

Truth is the dominance theory is based on flawed studies of artificial wolf packs applied to domestic dogs a sub species that has been divorced from wolves for over 60,000 years.

Why would an animal want to dominant another totally unrelated species & what would it gain by so doing ?? Sorry your logic fails me.

Basically dogs hump because they enjoy it & as a behaviour it is natural even though not acceptable to owners

Thanks again and MamaBas I did read the article which has actually confirmed to me that this puppy was just over-excited.  He's not tried humping today but has been totally OTT running around the house, jumping like a sprinkbok, grabbing anything however inappropriate and trying to run off with it etc (the list goes on).  Due to the foul weather and snow (and the fact that locally in our village 3 or 4 dogs have been ill with bad upset tummies and sickness) we've not walked him out today but we'll just carry on more or less as we are.  This is attempting to stop him from unwanted behaviour mainly by distraction but also by telling him off (for all the good that does.  lol).  Most of the time he's a very loving dog and not badly behaved for a puppy only just 4 months old.

> I did read the article which has actually confirmed to me that this puppy was just over-excited.

Which is why I did my own bit of research about all this, and decided to 'share' (the link).   I was thinking about all this (because the comments back at me have actually hurt!!) and the fact this is only a puppy, decided there are other reasons for this behaviour.

> Truth is the dominance theory is based on flawed studies of artificial wolf packs applied to domestic dogs a sub species that has been divorced from wolves for over 60,000 years.

More than that - the latest genetic research shows that dogs and wolves evolved from a common ancestor.  They were never the same species.  Add in those thousands of years of selective breeding, and looking to wolves to explain their behaviour is completely and utterly pointless.

Then add in progression in the understanding of behaviour and dogs over recent years and it becomes baffling that anyone is still holding on to this idea of dominance.  And not just because of the wolf thing; also because dogs have been selectively bred to want to be with us and work with us, so friction is not beneficial to that relationship.  Also, studies on domestic dogs have repeatedly shown that they are not pack animals.  Any hierarchy tends to be loose, fluid depending on the context at any given moment.

Mamabas, you said it yourself - why would a puppy be trying to dominate a pillow?  It makes no sense.  They don't try to dominate meek owners either - dogs do whatever gets them a reward of some kind, or whatever works in their favour.  That may be rough play, humping, pulling on lead etc.  E.g. - pulling on lead is to get them where they want to be, because it works (or so it seems to them, because it gets them there).  Humping feels good and it dissipates stress, so it gains relief from stress and good feelings.  It is also one of the fastest ways to get your owner paying attention to you!  That applies whatever the age of the dog.

Or, if you really want to cling on to the idea of dominance, ok; it's all about control of resources.  That's what dominance is for, in any species.  Control of food, water, territory and breeding rights.  We control where, when and how a dog sleeps, eats, plays, walks, relieves itself and lives - we are already dominant over them in every meaningful way.  A bit of humping isn't going to change that!  True dominant behaviour between dogs is also not like that - a truly dominant dog is calm and confident, and does not use physical means to assert their position or try to improve that position.  The dogs that do use physical means are less confident animals, trying to physically control the world around them - bullies.  Not dominant.

> NOTHING will convince me otherwise because I've SEEN IT

The scientists who conducted the original and subsequent studies on wolves that came up with dominance theory saw it and were sure of what they saw as well.  That does not mean they were correct; nor does it mean they could not change their interpretation of what they saw over time, as improved studies and information became available.  One of the biggest proponents of dominance theory was Dr David Mech, one of the world's foremost wolf biologists - and he has retracted it all, and stated clearly that he was wrong.  This happens all the time.  Infections were once believed to be the result of bad air.  Psychosis was once believed to be demonic possession or being tormented by evil spirits (and still is, in some places).  Knowledge and interpretations progress, usually for the better where behaviour is concerned, and we should progress with them.

I've seen humping too - very often, because I am a behaviourist by trade and unfortunately for me, apparently also a very inviting person to humpy dogs!  But never, ever have I seen a puppy or adult do it and believed it was dominance.  It's always overexcitement, play or nerves, sometimes an inability to cope with frustration (in a behavioural sense, not sexual), or simply because humping is a fantastically fast way to get a human's attention, or on occasion, because there's too much testosterone flying about and the dog would benefit from being neutered (only seen that once) or a bitch in season nearby.  Indeed, the worst one was humping me as displacement behaviour because his owners were making him nervous and I was a safe person!

Also, no-one is trying to put you down.  On a forum where there may be many people reading a thread like this, it is important that the most up to date information is given, especially on a subject like this because the word 'dominant' brings about all sorts of negative connotations and invites unpleasant handling from novice (or indeed experienced) owners.  And as it has been thoroughly debunked, there is no reason it should still be being given as an explanation for dog behaviour towards humans.

All of which just goes to show that humping has any number of causes!!   Including domination.  

I just wish that people would read what they write with the eyes of the person being addressed.   There is more than one way of killing a cat.  And there's no doubt that a couple on here ARE targetting me which may be a generational thing (you shouldn't ever knock or belittle experience) or even perhaps a gender thing?   Whatever is the case, sadly I'm less and less inclined to contribute what I do have to share, for free, to this forum.

http://www.labadoption.org/info/file?file=16316.pdf

Directed at the OP's question.

Note I've not read this entire article but it seems I'm not alone re the dominance factor ....... ?

Excellent posts by tommee and Nikita

I've always dealt with over excited behaviours, humping, play biting, over zealous play etc, by showing them what I want them to do. I've often found it easiest to gently play with a toy - usually a tug rope - so they can redirect their excess energy onto it.
It's also good to teach calming games, especially around children.

Brilliant post Nikita - thank you.

You highlight how views and opinions are constantly evolving in the light of our increased knowledge of canine behaviour/psychology - and thank goodness they do!

It happens in many walks of life and all sorts of disciplines - including mental health, as you point out.

Full marks to David Mech for being sufficiently open minded to review previous "wisdom" on dominance and to be big enough to concede, clearly, that the earlier research was flawed and that he was wrong.

I am old enough to remember some distinctly dodgy dog training advice and methods when I was growing up.  And, sadly, I have to admit that, in all good faith, i used some of these methods myself because "experts" told me to.  Nothing really dreadful but I now deeply regret that I followed such advice when I didn't know any better.  I am sure I am not the only person who feels this.  I can't change the past but I CAN make sure I keep up with the latest research and train accordingly.

We're learning all the time and I am sure our dogs are happier for it - and so am I!

Regarding the humping, I have found redirection ,redirection, redirection works best.

Cesar Millan is a great believer in the dominance theory, yet when asked to explain it cannot in any scientific way only what he believes & practises(Alpha Rolls, shock collars etc) he too has written (with ghost writer)books articles on dominance & how dogs are "pack" animals & that humans need to"lead their pack) no scientific back up or facts just what has been the"norm"in the past so it must be correct.

Dominance between species is unknown in the wild you don't see elephants dominating lions by doing the behaviour you believe is dominance do you ? Yet the two species live side by side like dogs & humans.

If you are so sure dominance exists between dogs & humans do you Alpha Roll your dogs from puppyhood to reinforce your leadership ?

Given that most of us on here are women, I fail to see how it can be a gender thing!  Or a generational thing.  Quite simply, if I see incorrect information - information that has been debunked by the most qualified people to do so, repeatedly, and alternative explanations for behaviour given which frankly make far more sense - which has the very high potential to cause considerable suffering to dogs, as dominance theory does, then I will write to counter it.  I will do that regardless of who is posting it, because of all of the people who might be reading that thread and taking on board everything that is said.  It's people like me, out working with dogs and the general public, who have to undo the damage that is done via misinformation and a not insignificant amount of that damage is done by people trying to dominate their dogs.

You certainly aren't alone about dominance, it is a very attractive theory to the human brain and it isn't going away any time soon.  The same thing happened with psychosis and infections and all manner of other behavioural and medical ideas.  The old beliefs do not go away overnight but over a long period of time and eventually, I firmly believe we will look back one day and find it incredible that we clung on to that idea for as long as we have.  It's already happening.

On the subject as a whole, and on dog behaviour/training generally, Blay sums it up beautifully:

"I can't change the past but I CAN make sure I keep up with the latest research and train accordingly."

Dogs and wolves were never the same species.
I think you need to check a dictionary as both are canines so are the same species as they can breed and produce pups together.

Wolves & dogs are members of the family of Canidae which is what I should have written. They are species in their own right within Canidae family

> I think you need to check a dictionary as both are canines so are the same species as they can breed and produce pups together.

Wolves can also breed with coyotes and jackals, and produce fertile offspring.  We do not consider these to all be the same species.  Also, the genus Canidae (canines) contains, at present, 33 species, so your argument that both being canines makes them the same species is incorrect.

I have not posted my own beliefs, but referenced research that was published in 2015.  That research found no evidence that dogs evolved from gray wolves (canis lupus), but that both evolved from a common ancestor, with the divison happening 14-16,000 years ago.  That ancestor was a species of prehistoric Siberian wolf, long extinct, but NOT the gray wolf we know today which is what is commonly believed to have been the origin of our domestic dog.  The research is easily found online, if you'd like to go and look yourself.  Far more informative than a dictionary.

As fascinating and informative as the posts about taxonomy are - and relevant in a marginal way ie responding and refuting dominance theories. How about giving the op some practical advice on happily dealing with, and developing a great relationship with, the new pup's antics?

Houseline on pup so he can be led away when behaviour starts and distracted/directed to more appropriate behaviour, game of fetch, chewtoy, short training session etc.

Quite right debbo, I do get a bit carried away!

Houseline and distraction/redirection is excellent advice.  Non-confrontational, gentle, easier to get hold of than a humping puppy!

Persistance is the key, here - OP, your friend needs to keep in mind just how self-rewarding humping is, so she's going to have to keep repeating the removal and distraction/redirection for a while for it to sink in.  It won't be instant but if she calmly repeats it every time it happens, it will sink in.  Even if she just does a few sits and downs with pup to get humping off his mind it'll do.

Also, have a look at the positive interruptor - I found it a godsend when I was raising Willow collie as she was a whirlwind of a pup.  Not a humper, but a serious chomper but, the interruptor is useful for all manner of behaviours.  It's pure distraction, very fast if the groundwork is done (and that takes minutes to do), and it immediately takes pup's mind off whatever they're doing so you can then reward for stopping, or instigate something more appropriate and reward that (e.g. playing with a toy).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8&t=13s

As an aside - I find the best noises are either a loud kissy noise (like you'd use with a cat) or a whistle.  These tend to get a better response than anything else I or my clients have tried.

My current youngster (now 5) is the only humpy dog I've ever had.  He started when he was about 3 months old, humping a soft toy which was the same size as he was.  At that time I regarded it (rightly or wrongly) as a "developmental pulse of testosterone" and very quickly redirected him every time, as soon as noticed, onto a tuggy or other "testosterone discharge device".  Having learned from an earlier rehomed dog that it is super easy to train an unwanted behaviour (in his case his previous owners had laughed when as a puppy he had savaged the mail) I was always careful to avoid giving any sort of approval cues. 

He hardly ever humps now, except when he has irritation from struvite crystals in his urethra; and occasionally, when over excited, he'll hump a carelessly outstretched leg if it touches his chest as his chest would touch the back of a receptive bitch.  I always distract him or move him on gently, and try to avoid the triggers.

An observation as far as dominance is concerned - he is trying to displace my older dog as "top dog", but he has never tried to hump him, nor does the older dog try to hump the younger. (Massively unscientific sample of 2 dogs )

> We control where, when and how a dog sleeps, eats, plays, walks, relieves itself and lives - we are already dominant over them in every meaningful way.

Spot on.

Thank you all.  I've always believed in distraction techniques where possible and the puppy really only had one very bad day for humping and occasional random humps on my 8-year-old grandson.  The pup is a real handful, more so when the children are in the house even if they are just quietly watching TV.  Unfortunately the children live here and are not available for rehoming so somehow we all just have to make this work (pup is going NOWHERE!).  The latest problem is puppy biting.  We tell him no, push him away, give him a chewy or toy, but he can get so excited that he doesn't seem able to stop himself.  Of course the children get the worst of all this but believe me, it really hurts when you get bitten on your nose.
My daughter and I have had dogs of various breeds for over 30 years, all of which started with us as puppies, but never have we had one which is such a handful so any further suggestions would be gratefully received.  When it all gets totally out of hand puppy is crated for a while but it doesn't always help - it just gives us a bit of a break before the next onslaught.  When he's good though he's so very loving and cuddly and there's no malice in him, just excitement.

IMVHO
"The latest problem is puppy biting.  We tell him no, push him away, give him a chewy or toy,"

Actually reacting encourages nipping something that is a natural learning behaviour in dogs. Not acceptable to owners, but adult dogs usually do not react when this happens & if it gets to much for the adult they get up & move away. This is where the house line cones in useful as the lead can be tugged gently to get the pups attention & an alternative chewable item provided in SILENCE if anyone reacts by telling off etc this rewards the behaviour taking the pups attention away from their "victim" & then rewarding in silence teaches the fog that NOT nipping is rewarded.

It is the human who should move out of range in silence & not crating the pup as a punishment. Crates should not be used as"naughty steps" for dogs

There will be others no doubt who consider what you are doing correct, but as it isn't working is it ?

Are you doing any training with tools like a chicker? Look up Kikopup on You tube. It is America & a bit OTT with the "good job"all the time but the training is spot on

With the biting if you're not able to distract him onto a toy, then you need to ignore him. Pushing him away just becomes part of the game. Saying no is giving him attention which pups crave. But getting up, turning away, standing in the corner even, or leaving him alone is what will work best. But you all need to do the same thing. If he starts biting a person, then that person leaves the room. If he starts on someone else then that person leaves too and so on until no one is left in the room and he is alone, something he won't like. Then one person goes in and if he starts biting again, then out they go. Not a word needs to be spoken. It will take time but everyone must be persistent and consistent then the puppy will finally cotton on that if he bites he's left on his own.
Also remember that an overtired hyped up puppy is totally unable to control themselves and it's probably best to pop him in his crate with something tasty to chew on and leave him to have a snooze.

Good luck, they can be very annoying at this age. Just as well they look cute

Best thing to remember is the worst behaved pups make the best adults

Thanks Jodi.  What you say totally makes sense although I am not sure the whole family will go along with it.  Nevertheless I'll speak to them (he's my daughter's dog but as she works a lot of the work with the puppy and children falls to me ).  Yes, pushing him away does turn it into a game (why didn't I think of that!) and his worst time of day seems to be at dusk.  Later in the evening he just wants cuddles.

his worst time of day seems to be at dusk.

standard time for 'puppy zoomies

an overtired hyped up puppy is totally unable to control themselves = Think back to kids ........... over excited = 'tears before bedtime'

Think back to kids ........... over excited = 'tears before bedtime'  Tell me about it.  I live with the grandchildren.