Hi, I’m a long time lurker but first time poster. My girl has finally come into season (she’s 4) and this is her and my first time of puppies. She had open pyometra last season which was successfully treated and the Vet advised breeding this season and then looking at spaying so really this is quite possibly her only litter. I’ve got the stud dog cleared etc but she keeps herself extremely clean and I don’t have any other dogs around so it’s tricky to know where she is in her season, hence looking at progesterone testing. She started her season Thursday night and i’m trying to work out when to start getting her tested? Thank you. C

Highly unusual for vets to advise to breed, they are normally so against it....why don't you just miss out the middle bit & spay her in 3 months.

Thank you for replying. She is an unusual breed and lines and I wanted to have one litter from her if I can although I would never put her at risk. There were risks to spaying her before I won’t get into online and she is in season now. If I left her barren she would have to be on antibiotics for a while and could potentially get resistant and then get resistant pyometra which would be more risky to her. I’ve had two repro vets suggest this route, it may be unusual but it’s unusual for a 3 year old to get pyometra too. Hopefully all will be well I’m just trying to get the best timing for her on progesterone testing.

Idexx recomend to start from day 7

Thanks :) does day counting start Thursday or Friday do you reckon? Trying to work out if I should take her to the vets Thursday or Friday this week? Would get the results Saturday. Thank you again. C

Lexy - Strangely enough, I had to take one of my girls to the vet last month for an open PYO. I didn't see my usual vet but this younger one did say pyo can be treated and it is recommended that you breed on the next season!  I was surprised to hear this from a vet, although I have heard of it from fellow breeders.
As my girls was 10, we didn't go down that route...

I think things are getting a little confused here....

IF you want to keep a dog intact after pyo, it is recommended that you breed on the next season.  The reason being that the pyo is incredibly likely to come back.  You can't sit around, twiddling your thumbs and waiting for multiple heat cycles for when you'd ideally like to plan a litter - you have to breed the next time around.

If you're not going to follow recommendations to spay immediately your dog has pyo, the only reason is that you intend to breed your dog - in which case, breed the dog, then spay. 

This is not to say that breeding your dog is somehow a 'cure' for pyo:  The pyo will come back, likely after breeding (sadly maybe even the cycle you tried to breed), so you will still need to spay.  It's just that, if you really do want to have a litter, you need to have one immediately after a pyo.

If you don't have plans to breed your dog, I don't think a vet would be recommending breeding her - it doesn't 'cure' pyo long-term.  The best option in that instance, is to spay.

Thank you, yes I had the same recommendation as you as I wanted to keep her intact if I could and quite possibly breed from her if it was safe. :)

Hopefully this will clear things up :) I did want to breed from her if it was safe to do so. Trust me we doubled and triple checked all the way through to make sure every scrap of infection was gone, no expense or care spared. I would not risk her for anything. Part of that was agreeing that spaying while having pyo also carry’s risks and once we came through the other side I decided that since I did want to breed this season it has to be; however no contact with other dogs, no baths that could get bacterium in etc so hopefully minimal risks this season. As I stated this is likely to be her only litter as she in all likelyhood will be spayed soon after having the litter and they’ve been weaned etc so as to not risk the pyo coming back. She is in season at the moment (started Thursday night), I am going to breed from her this season and likely spay after, I’m just trying to get help on when to do progesterone testing and what days to start. Thank you again. C

Just as an aside, I always spay my girls when the pups are abut 11 - 12 weeks of age.

AS they have a major post partum moult, and often do the same after spaying I get that out of coat thing out of the way in one go, so that they can return to the showring after 6 months, as with season pregnancy and puppy rearing you loose basically a year with a coated breed.

Thanks Brainless :) I don’t show her that much so not as worried on coat as much as her health. Useful to know you can spay that early though if you need to. :)

Let us know what happens Kaya, I'd be interested to hear about the pregnancy and whelping after the pyo.

As for progesterone testing, there is no absolute rule - it all depends on how CERTAIN you want to be not to miss.  Since you are in a situation where you only have this one chance, and you don't want to miss another cycle and risk pyo, I would really be leaving no stone unturned in terms of determining where she is in her cycle.

The earliest recommended day to start is typically Day 5, to be sure she is not going to be an early ovulator - some bitches do ovulate very early in a cycle.  So I would personally have already done the first progesterone test. 

After that, be led by the progesterone tests but, as you get closer - especially with Xmas and the bank holidays etc approaching - don't rely totally on them if your instincts and your girl are telling you otherwise.  (It is possible to be too late to the stud, by the time you get a test result back and have travelled there.)

Thank you onetwothreefour. I’m hoping it will all be okay. I think she may get sick of the vets triple checking for no pyo after mating and through but I really want to make absolutely sure. I was wondering re testing if I should have done it already. The vet was saying this Friday to get back Saturday as the earliest one but I think i’m Going to take her in this afternoon too just to make sure as that gives us an idea as well. Thank you again. Will keep you up to date (will probably have more questions along the way too :)). Thank you. C

The most reliable testing is the type where blood is taken and sent off to a lab - if your vet is doing in-house testing relying on looking at a colour chart, it's not reliable and I know many people who've had poor results using that.

If you're drawing blood to send off, it is best to do it first thing in the morning as it gives it the best chance to make the post that day and get to the lab ASAP and also it's best not to feed the dog before the test.  This is due to lipid levels in the blood occasionally having the potential to skew results.  (Most vets don't know this unless they are repro specialists.)

Have you thought about having her chv vaccinated as well?

Yes, I agree - the first progesterone test is a good time to do the first CHV herpes jab too.

Got her cytology done by experienced Vet and not in estrus on Thursday (she came into season the previous Thursday night), took progesterone test yesterday and results today are less than 0.6 is what the vet told me so in season but definately not ovulated yet, they suggest another cytology Boxing Day ( in 3 days) and restesting progesterone either Boxing Day or the day after, Would get the results the day after blood test done. Looks like she’s going to be later than normal.

Have asked about the CHV vaccine. They didn’t know about it so are looking it up and will have to order it in. When is best to do it bearing in mind she’s being a bit late with ovulation. :)

I would have it done now.

0.6 is very low, so you're not in a rush.

You can give the 1st herpes vaccination any time from the start of heat until 7-10 days after mating.  Personally, I prefer to give it before mating so I reduce the vaccines given during pregnancy.  (The 2nd dose still has to be given 1-2wks before whelping, but you can't get round that one.) 

Your vet will need to hurry if they want to get it in, in time for you - especially given Xmas and how sometimes availability can be scarce.

Results just came in today at 6.5 nmol/l from blood drawn yesterday. From what I can tell this equates to 2ng/l. I saw the chart that says : 7 -12 Nmol or 2.2 - 3.7ng minimum one day to ovulation. estimated breeding window 3 -5 days.

Does this mean breed within the next 3-5 days or she won’t be ready to start to breed until the next 3-5 days? I have to travel about 3hours to get to the stud dog and they have to get him ready and be around too. Testing lab have suggested retesting tomorrow to get results Friday but trying to work out if I should test again today for results tomorrow. She went from 3.6-6.5 from Tuesday to Wednesday.

Please :) also is there anything I should do re my girl in preparation (cleaning or anything). I don’t like to bathe her when she’s in season as I don’t trust not to get infection in while she’s open but will do if I need to. She’s having the CHV vaccine after mating probably now as couldn’t get it in before and she was wormed with Drontal yesterday (although was sick about 3.5hours after worming so hoping it worked).

Glad you've managed to get hold of the CHV vaccine.

There are different ways to play it, dependent on how much you want to test and what the stud owner is prepared to do. 

If I were you (which I'm not and you gotta make your own decisions!) I'd probably do a test first thing in the morning (Fri), and then go to the stud immediately after that and attempt a mating before getting the results.  Can you stay nearby the stud for a few days because 6 hrs total driving each day you attempt, is a long time?  Do you have 2 matings or just one?  All these are things that factor into the plan...

As I'm reading this at 1pm, I think you'll be too late to test today (Thurs) for result tomorrow (Fri) - because it may not get to the lab by tomorrow now (depends where you live - I have to test first thing in the morning for results next afternoon). 

And you've also got the New Year holidays etc coming up.  So I think I'd test Fri morning and get result Saturday - tell the vet to give consent on the paperwork for the lab to phone you directly with the results, to cut out the middle man.  (Is the lab open Saturday?)  Sunday is out, Monday is New Year's Day - so if you test Fri for result Saturday, that's going to be your last possible test (I think - unless she is really late).  If you haven't had a mating by Tuesday, then test again...

Smear came back with changes and they are suggesting mate tomorrow and Sunday so am in touch with the stud owner :) have got the vaccine on order and she should be having it tomorrow morning early (it comes in between 7-8am). Bloods from today should be back tomorrow morning too. Fingers crossed it all works out. Thank you so much everyone.

Cool.  If you want to be absolutely sure and leave no stone unturned, I'd still do a progesterone test tomorrow when you are there in the morning for the CHV jab. 

It is not unknown for bitches to 'hang' at a certain level and ovulate later than predicted.  Meanwhile, they will often accept the male (some bitches will mate throughout their season) - so you could go off and have 2 successful matings and then still fail if she ovulates late. 

So I'd get a progesterone done seeing you're at the vet anyway for the CHV and that will give you more information - do the matings as planned and when you get the progesterone result, you'll know if you've covered her or if you need to rush back...

Will do, thank you loads. :)

> they will often accept the male (some bitches will mate throughout their season) - so you could go off and have 2 successful matings and then still fail if she ovulates late.

Just had a litter on 17th December when bitch mated 10th to 16th October (2 year old maiden dog, proven bitch), so 5 days late to first mating, showing she didn't ovulate until probably 15th - 17th October, and conceived 48+ hours after that..

I didn't progesterone test, and had her stay with the stud.

Previous season (veteran male who had sired a  litter month earlier) the stud owner could not have her to stay and mating tried day 16, she would not have any of him, day 19 mating, but no pups.

Hi. Happy update :) we had a successful tie yesterday for about 15mins. Bloods taken yesterday looks like she ovulated yesterday so timing was right and experienced stud dog definitely thought she was ready and she didn’t object. We’re going to try again tomorrow just to make sure as this is her only chance for a litter. Fingers crossed. Thank you guys.

Hi Kaya - That sounds really promising. 

After ovulation, eggs take about 48hrs to be ripe and able to be fertilised and then typically remain so for a couple days.  So you need semen in there 48hrs after ovulation.  It typically lives at least 3 days in the bitch.

Good luck!

We got another tie over 20mins and solid so fingers crossed we get pups in about 9 weeks. She’ll be having scans to check both for puppies but also to double check no pyo is there. Very happy. Thank you everyone.