http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5112185/Im-devastated-sorry-says-owner-dogs.html

just how could you save your dog in this situation? warning video in above is horrific

I'm sorry. I realise this is a very good question but I don't think providing a link with a horrific video is reasonable. I have stopped looking at the daily mail website because it repeatedly has auto rolling videos - dogs being boiled alive for example.

I don't think you would have much hope with those dogs in question. 2 massive bull breeds v's a Beagle. The owner of the bull breeds couldn't do much. Wasn't one reported to be a Dogo too?
The chances are as an unknown human you'd get badly bitten as well

I didnt watch the video, reading the article was quite enough.

One each you and the owner grab a dog and stick something up it's bum (your thumb, most likely) to make it release the other dog then drag it away by the hind legs and pray it doesn't manage to get a hold of you.

Realistically you can't do anything without risking your own life and if the owner can't control them you have little hope. I do know one person who's mini schnau was saved from a pit bull attack by a passing workman who kicked the pit in the face with a steel capped boot and broke it's jaw. An inch to the left and he'd have kicked the schnau however so very lucky rather than wise.

To be honest if I see one of the bull breeds in the distance with half it's ears missing in the style of the white dog on the article I immediately turn and walk the other way. The mentality of those who favour that look usually goes hand in hand with these sorts of incidents.

Garbo go into the settings of your phone/tablet/computer and turn autoplay off. It will save you from having to watch such awful things.

But don't go back to reading the daily fail because it is dross

In this spersific case I don't think anything could have saved the dog once the attack started. Those were two large powerful dogs, the bully kutta breed has been used for dog fighting for a while now in some places do to there strength.
It would have come down to prevention. Reading both accounts from the walker and owner the beagle ran off up to the two big dogs without the walker noticing while they had 5 dogs with them (didn't say if all 5 off lead or not). Owner didn't see the beagle coming and it tried to get the big dogs ball and one went for it, the other joined in and it all went to hell from there.

Lesson to be learnt is if you letting your dog off lead keep an eye on it and your surroundings to prevent it running up to unknown dogs and so you see approaching dogs before they reach you.

I'm not reading or looking.  Just to say years ago now, we lived near a family in the small hamlet, who had a white Boxer and a meaner dog would be hard to find.  One morning, coming back down the lane with our small pack (Bassets) all on leads, this creature managed to bash his way out of their crumbling fence and attacked our biggest male.   He got him by the throat and I honestly thought he was a gonna.   Thank goodness the dog's owner, hearing the noise, came running out and grabbed his dog just in time.   We were only steps away from home so with very shakey legs (me) we got home and I examined my hound but could find no serious puncture marks, just as load of slobber.   Next the wife came to the door full of apologies, unlike her husband who said 'if we reported him/his dog, he'd kill my husband'.   At which point we called the police.  He was known to them and as this was a direct threat, the case was logged.   We later saw the police up the lane outside his house.   We heard no more.   But it shook me up good, even if my boy seemed not to be traumatised. 

I can only sympathise with the owner of the Beagle but again I've not read or looked at this article and don't hole that newspaper in high regard!

> <br />just how could you save your dog in this situation?

Firstly, I avoid loose bull-breed type dogs that I don't know like the plague, especially if they have no collar on like the dogs in the video (seems rather irresponsible to me).

Secondly, those dogs would have had 4 broken legs each, it can't take much to snap those legs in half with some serious downward kicks with your heel to the front legs, especially if you straddle the dog first to keep it in place, and the rear legs weak point is the knees, so kicks from the side to the knees should blow the knees out of action, rendering the rear legs crippled. They would not have been able to away, even if I had to endure some bites myself.

The owners attempts to get his dogs off looked feeble, and why was somebody stood around filming??? The more people in there trying to sort it out, the more likely they would have been to save the dog.

Standing around filming????? All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing........

Sickening. Poor little beagle.

Last year a man bent down to lift his own dog up during and attack and the attacking dog tore his throat out with one bite. He is dead. Good luck straddling the things and breaking their legs, I certainly wouldn't risk my life to say my dog. My child, yes. But not my dog.

> Last year a man bent down to lift his own dog up during and attack and the attacking dog tore his throat out with one bite. He is dead. Good luck straddling the things and breaking their legs, I certainly wouldn't risk my life to say my dog. My child, yes. But not my dog.

Thanks for the good luck, but I have found grabbing a dog to restrain it and punching the living daylights out of its fore-head has worked for me before to save my dog (and attacking dog was about the same size as those responsible for killing this beagle, in fact it looked very similar to the white one).  I'd up the anti and go for crippling one if I felt I needed to, and be confidant that I could keep my throat out of the way.
Straddling a dog would leave ones hands free for self defence/attacking by hand/further restraint. I have used straddling to great effect to stop my 80kg Mastiff from mating with a loose in-season bitch that was persistently flagging underneath him and weaving through his legs, all though he was heavier and stronger than me, you suddenly have much more control if you are over their shoulders with all your own body weight bearing down (you also can get them in a neck lock with your thighs or knees, if you need to control the head)

You NEVER pick up a dog (or child/person/cat/any living being) that is being attacked, even if you are not concerned for your own safety, an attacking dog will most likely jump and grab, causing even more damage to the victim. You also never pick up a dog that is just being approached by another dog (unless you are 100% certain of the approaching dogs behaviour in that exact situation), it can easily trigger a prey-drive or at least a grab response.

I would risk my life to save my dog, they depend on me for every aspect of their life, I would not let them down when they needed me the most. But, each to their own.

> Last year a man bent down to lift his own dog up during and attack and the attacking dog tore his throat out with one bite. He is dead. Good luck straddling the things and breaking their legs, I certainly wouldn't risk my life to say my dog. My child, yes. But not my dog.

Just curious, if, heaven forbid, your dog attacked another dog or a person or animal, would you intervene or keep out of it for fear of getting injured yourself?

If my dog was attacking I would intervene because I have the best chance of getting control of him. The owner typically does.

Are you a 55kg woman?

> <br />Are you a 55kg woman?

No, 60kg, why?

ETA, I am a woman.

I just think many 55kg women would struggle to punch hard enough to put an attacking dog off.

Have you ever been badly attacked by a dog mastiff lover? My dad was once. It was a failed police dog (they didn't know until afterwards why it was failed). He stood up in his own kitchen and it took exception to that and bit him four times, once in each hand and forearm. He had nearly 50 stitches and two crushed bones in his left hand (it bit with decreasing force each time). The whole attack took about 5 seconds from the dog standing up to it retiring to it's corner whimpering. My dad did nothing but stand utterly stunned as it happened, there had been no warning at all (it had been failed for choosing it's own targets and biting them without warning). He always told us that though prior to that he alwats thought he'd know how to react, in the moment he simply froze.

I think ideas about what to do are great but realistically none of us know how we'd react unless it happens to us. The one time things got nasty with my dog, with a mastiff as it happens, I picked my son up (he is profoundly autistic) and didn't intervene. Eventually the gormless teenager "in charge" of it put a lead on it and moved away (mine was on lead throughout) but given the choice of reliving that day I would have done the same and protected my child.

> Have you ever been badly attacked by a dog mastiff lover?

I have not been physically attacked by a dog that actually managed to hurt me but have kicked away a dog that tried to go for my leg, if that counts (does it count if you stop them from getting you?).
I have broken up dog fights (the topic of the thread), including a very serious fight in which one dog ended up in intensive care for over a week.
I tend to react in situations, not freeze, always have done, especially when it comes to the topic of the thread, I have always got stuck in and never froze or stood idly by, so I am not talking about what I think I may do if the situation arose, I am talking about what I have actually done - whatever I needed to in order to stop the fight.

It counts because you know what you'd do if you are attacked but not I suppose if you were already injured.

I don't generally freeze but some people do. It's just whatever your nervous system does at the time really I suppose. When I was breastfeeding (my children, not my dog I hasten to add!) I found I was much more calm and active in a crisis. I would have murdered a dog threatening them without my heart rate rising. I still feel the same about my son (no longer breastfed, he's nearly 5) - I would absolutely kill to protect him. But not my dogs. But then maybe I would in the moment?

I think basically that it is good to know what could be done in these situations, but still hard to really plan because some people will think and react very quickly and with great success and others won't.

> When I was breastfeeding (my children, not my dog I hasten to add!)

> I would have murdered a dog threatening them without my heart rate rising

Women have been known to preform astounding feats to save their children - don't mess with a mum!!!

> still hard to really plan because some people will think and react very quickly and with great success and others won't.

It is hard to plan, because you can not plan for every possible situation, but I always feel better with a loose plan in my head even knowing that even the best made plans can go out the window at the critical moment. Everybody does react differently, and one can't prepare for simply how shocking a dog fight sounds, so the first time you hear that, it will trigger you into action or nail you to the spot.

Avoid , avoid avoid, that is the best thing we can all do, be aware of dog behaviour and avoid any situation or dog that we don't feel comfortable around. Far better to never have to deal with aggressive dogs. I often turn-tail and leave the field I am in if I don't like the look of a loose dog (or the owners look like thugs). I even avoid leashed dogs on footpaths if I think there could be a chance of them being a bit dubious. So, all though it may sound like I am a savage lol, I am only aggresive when I really need to be and will do all in my power to avoid getting into any bother x

Haha I like a savage woman (I'm one too when pushed and I must have nearly 40kg on you so when I get annoyed people get out my way).

I too avoid as much as possible and particularly thuggish types. I also carry a special handful of treats to throw at potentially bolshy dogs before they get to attacking. And i generally think a thumb in the eye would dissuade a dog. But I'm still not sure in the moment if I'd do the right thing, or indeed anything. Even in my plans i dont think id have the guts to straddle a huge attacking dog though.

The one time my dog was attacked the attacking dog did not see the other four one being any elderly g.s.d. and the three other corgis, owner was miles away and across a stream the dog had crossed to get at the dog walking ahead of me, needless to say when the pack ran forward barking it changed its mind normally if I see anyone on a walk with or without a dog I put mine on the lead, this day I was not expecting it to swim the stream

On most of my walks that is what's likely to happen too.  In fact it's certain - when I'm walking Ren, Linc and Willow have already proven that they will do their utmost to move dogs away from her.  In the other group, Paige will physically drag an attacking dog off one of my others (happened once with a foster).

What worries me is when I'm walking little dogs.  A few years back when I still worked for the loony woman I used to work for, I was walking a few small dogs at the field near me with a helper.  There was a guy there with a muzzled GSD.  He saw us, put it on lead and moved out of sight - and took the lead off.  Needless to say, the dog ran straight at us and attacked the obese, wonky, knackered oldie that was with me.  If not for that muzzle, I think the GSD would have done serious damage.  All I could do was shout at it and try to whack it round the head but it ran off.  The guy was an idiot - apparently the dog had been attacked as a puppy and reactive since, and he was trying to get it used to other dogs.  By letting it off lead near them in a muzzle!  Needless to say he got an earful from me and I've never seen him since.

More recently another GSD ran at us with less than pleasant intentions and zero control from the owner, but fortunately the timing was as good as it could have been then - I'd just got the three I was walking (two JRTs and Linc) out of the car so I just popped them all straight back in and it gave up right away.  Linc would have seen it off that day (it was big, but he's bigger) but without him, I don't want to think about the possible outcome.  But I can't usually have him with me when I walk them, so it is a worry.  Mostly people walking there are fine and the dogs are well trained, it's just that one but I haven't seen it off the lead again and I know when it's usually walked there.

Express
The following day Deebo and Loki were seized by police under the Dangerous Dog Act for assessment - and Mr Baxter said whatever the outcome, he won’t see his dogs again.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/883585/dog-attack-killed-Beagle-Chester-park-Eccles-pets-dangerous-dogs-Greater-Manchester

Daily Star
Deebo and Loki were seized by police under the Dangerous Dog Act for assessment and Mr Baxter has admitted he won’t see his dogs again.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/662239/Dog-Attack-Manchester-Chester-Beagle-Video-Pictures-Paul-Baxter-Deebo-Loki-Gary-Jennifer

> I certainly wouldn't risk my life to say my dog. My child, yes. But not my dog.

To me there is no difference in this regard between my child and my dog. I'd step in front of moving traffic to save either of them (I have done...), just as I'd step in front of the attacking dog. It is almost as if there was not much room for thinking or deciding, but close to instinctive to do what is necessary to protect someone you care about.

To the OP question, at the moment it seems to me a small hairspray can is likely to be the most effective solution, in the worst case scenarios. Those situations where there is no help from others and its just you, your dog being attacked, and the most important thing becomes to stop the attack. Positioning yourself over the attacking dog, grabbing it firmly by the scruff to steady the head and spraying the hairspray closely in the eyes.

I haven't tried this so its just a theory, but I had experience with fighting dogs and other methods of breaking up. Many of such methods require skill, strength, and often take longer time, which means significantly less number of people would be able to successfully use them. Hairspray method appears easier in comparison. The main objection against this method is accidentally spraying your own dog, that is why grabbing the scruffs and holding the can right to the attacking dog's eyes would be necessary.

Also, I think we are probably moving towards a "better future" at least from the point of view of safety!

I'm not sure if there has already been research looking at whether the now widespread use of dashcams resulted in better driving behaviour on roads, due to the fact that many people have realised anyone around them on the road could now be a "policeman", by capturing their dangerous driving manoeuvre and forwarding the footage to the police who then successfully prosecute. 

Everyone has phones and takes videos now, which also means that things people were getting away with before are not so much easy to get away with now, due to this evidence. And even further recently I've met walkers who had mini action cameras on them that are able to continuously record for two-three hours. The idea of these is to capture the walk, beautiful scenery etc, but the other advantage is of course continuous footage of what is going on! And once this footage is used as evidence in courts, and uncontrolled dogs are removed from their owners because of this footage, the next idiot owner is likely to think twice before letting their dog off the lead.

> It is almost as if there was not much room for thinking or deciding, but close to instinctive to do what is necessary to protect someone you care about.

This is the main factor really, what actually happens in the moment.

The one time my dog was attacked (actually just told off loudly although he was only 5 months old and had done nothing and was on lead and the other dog ran up to snarl and snap) i picked my son up and stepped back to protect him while shouting at the other dogs owner to get it on a lead. My son is severely autistic and non verbal. If I am hurt he cannot say his name or address. He cannot run for help or tell a paramedic who he is. If i am not able to keep ahold of his reons/harness he may in fear run blindly into traffic or towards the attacking dog. I carry notices in my car detailing his condition as though he is 5 if we were in an accident and I were incapacitated he is as helpless as a new born. He is much more helpless than my dog who at least has SOME self preserving danger awareness and a set of big teeth.

If I'm on my own with the dogs I'd be MUCH more likely to risk myself but if my son is there he's my main priority at all times.

Well that's fair enough.  I would risk myself to a degree, but I do have to keep in mind that my dogs only have me - there is no OH to look after them if anything major happens to me, only the dog sitter IF she's available.

> that is why grabbing the scruffs and holding the can right to the attacking dog's eyes would be necessary.

Indeed.  Very difficult to get the right dog in a fight scenario but, grabbing the attacker's scruff also puts you at massive risk of being injured yourself (same as grabbing the collar, reflex reaction can cause a redirected bite).  It's a difficult one.

> Very difficult to get the right dog in a fight scenario but, grabbing the attacker's scruff also puts you at massive risk of being injured yourself (same as grabbing the collar, reflex reaction can cause a redirected bite).  It's a difficult one.

Grabbing the attacking dog anywhere puts the person at risk of being injured, including grabbing it by the hind legs (for the wheelbarrow manoeuvre). If that is the person's worry, he/she should not be attempting to break up the dogs.

As I said above my personal feelings in these situations are all focused on saving my dog, not on worries about being bitten...

From someone who has had 2 bad dog experiences, I’d just like to say that you don’t know how you’d react in that situation until you’re in it but also each one is different

When my dog was 9 months old, he was pinned to my leg by a much bigger dog which lunged and pulled out his owners hand. I froze still in shock while the other owner wailed around on the floor playing victim. Luckily my boy was unharmed and we just walked off but given that was at a dog handling workshop I was more annoyed that the other owner didn’t bother to ask how me and my dog were!

The second time was horrific. My boy gave a very low calming signal to say he wasn’t happy (as he always had being a friendly boy, just by turning his head away) and we both went to move on as I picked up on it. Sadly we weren’t quick enough and the staffy locked into his chest and dragged him back round, and he was on his hind legs screaming. It happened fast but to me it felt like an eternity hearing my baby boy screaming! At first I was screaming for help but the other owner did nothing and I didn’t give it another thought but to punch the attacking dog on the nose, with so much force I fell through with it. I didn’t care if I got hurt, I just wanted it to get off my dog - to me he is my child and I was willing to get injured to free him. I’ve since been told the best way is to pull the attacking dog back by it’s hind legs or to choke it but in that moment I just wanted it to stop

Me and my dog are still both traumatised by it. I’ve worked so hard to get to where we are now that he can pass another dog without reacting but he still doesn’t want dogs close to him and will still panic if he sees another staffy given what he’s been through

2 different experiences and 2 different reactions from the same person. I just thank my lucky stars that he’s so well coated because I still believe that helped save him

> Grabbing the attacking dog anywhere puts the person at risk of being injured, including grabbing it by the hind legs (for the wheelbarrow manoeuvre). If that is the person's worry, he/she should not be attempting to break up the dogs.

As I said above my personal feelings in these situations are all focused on saving my dog, not on worries about being bitten...

I was just pointing it out for anyone reading.  What you say is true, grabbing them anywhere is risky but around the head/neck area is higher risk for redirection IME.  But as you say, to get spray into the right place, it's a risk you might have to take and in that situation the spray may be a higher priority depending on the severity of the attack.