Nope, not changed a name or whatever.  I used to be on here a very long time ago as onetwothree(!) so I guess I did add a 'four' (!) - only really old-timers would remember me from then. 

I think I've said pretty much all I have to say on the recall subject.  It's all a bit moot now anyway, as you've done the Suprelorin - so time will tell if it will help or not....

Thanks for adding your experience Lorripop. I'm glad things are less stressful now.

My boy seems fairly normal so far (only four days in). He's perhaps a tiny more sniffy - this morning he was sniffing so intently he only spotted a passing yorkie because it barked at him, but whatever he was sniffing must have been lively as he was positively salivating/nose dripping over it.

Did you find the behaviours you were worried about worsened with the initial surge?

I have read all this with interest.pleaeed Nikita came in with her examples to show.all is not always black and white . to poodlenoodle given the challenges u must face on a daily bases having read your posts since he was a pup I for.what it's worth think u have done an amazing job.i am sure none of us  can  of us do everything correctly all.the time but it sounds like u have done a dam good job. Am pleased he is on full raw and I would not consider changing that to kibble so u can train with higher value food . His health is important as well

I have read all this with interest.pleaeed Nikita came in with her examples to show.all is not always black and white . to poodlenoodle given the challenges u must face on a daily bases having read your posts since he was a pup I for.what it's worth think u have done an amazing job.i am sure none of us  can  of us do everything correctly all.the time but it sounds like u have done a dam good job. Am pleased he is on full raw and I would not consider changing that to kibble so u can train with higher value food . His health is important as well

I agree about feeding raw. I wouldn't put my dogs onto kibble just so they can have raw food as a high value treat. My dogs have been fed raw for years and years - one dog is a complete food orientated dog, one dog just can't be bothered with food (eats about every third day but has done this for years and is absolutely fine with his unusual eating habits) and my latest rescue dog who isn't particularly motivated by food at all.

My foody dog will work for anything that is edible - he teleports food and will eat anything at all. My rescue boy is totally motivated by a tuggy with a ball on the end of it and this is what he works for - total focus and commitment for his toy which is a great reward for him so I have to disagree that food is the only reward to get a great recall. My dogs work in agility and the majority of handlers use toys not food for rewards.

Incidentally my dogs don't get their dinners "for free" They come when called, sit and wait, in their own respective places and are then released to eat their food - so they are all "working" for their dinners. Something I do to make reward treats more interesting is to store several cloves of garlic in the treat pot - the smell makes even the most mundane of treats really appealing; unless you are my GR who has never, ever found any food anything other than positively wonderful

The best reward to me is the one your dog most wants to earn - be it food, praise, toys or whatever. Have a look at the Premack Principle for dog training and see if this would work for you. The link is just to explain the principle and how it can be used in training a recall - I couldn't find the one I usually use but this explains it  https://louisesdogblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/the-premack-principle-and-the-recall/

>I have to disagree that food is the only reward to get a great recall.

Er, I definitely didn't say that food is the only reward that can get a good recall.

However, if you have a dog which isn't food or toy motivated, you can create food motivation a lot more easily than you can create toy motivation....

>They come when called, sit and wait, in their own respective places and are then released to eat their food - so they are all "working" for their dinners.

Not really.  They do one simple 'cheap' behaviour (sitting and waiting) for a huge massive reward (all their food in one go).  I don't call that 'working' for their dinner...

>I wouldn't put my dogs onto kibble just so they can have raw food as a high value treat.

That is completely up to you and your choice.

>one dog just can't be bothered with food

There might be a correlation, between your previous statement and this one.

I teach classes every week and have taught hundreds - actually, thousands - of dogs over the last 15 years.  Raw food has become increasingly more popular over this time, and I've seen a big correlation between dogs that are raw fed and dogs that are not food motivated.  Not only that, but I've FIXED the 'lack of food motivation' issue in many dogs coming to my class, by recommending they switch to kibble - and the dogs' recalls have gone from very dodgy to 100% reliable away from other dogs in class.  Not all raw fed dogs lack food motivation - some maintain it just great.  If you think feeding raw is a higher priority than food motivation, I can't argue with that - it's your choice.

I remember now why I stopped participating in this site.... It's because it takes me ages to type stuff out, and I do it for free, and everyone thinks they know better.... Whereas I can spend that time teaching my own clients, who are paying me money, and will listen and apply what I say without debating it for 550 pages...   No brainer really.

Hope all your recall problems are fixed soon and bye....

> Please, just because you yourselves haven't managed to train something, don't assume that therefore nobody could train it... and offer it up as 'proof'....

And just because you have managed to train many dogs to recall despite prey drive etc, does not mean every dog can be.  There are always exceptions.

Or as one trainer put it (I can never remember who): any dog can be trained to do anything, but not necessarily within the lifetime of that dog.

Of course, I haven't said that this particular dog cannot be trained to - the opposite, actually - just that it may take quite a while to achieve.  Some dogs do.

> Not only that, but I've FIXED the 'lack of food motivation' issue in many dogs coming to my class, by recommending they switch to kibble - and the dogs' recalls have gone from very dodgy to 100% reliable away from other dogs in class. 

I'm curious as to how you would approach this issue if the dog in question could not switch to kibble.  I'm not trying to cause an argument - I'm genuinely curious.  I have two dogs here for whom I cannot find a kibble that works for them that I can afford, due to multiple food allergies.  I've had no issues with motivation as I engage well with them and use high value treats that they love, but I do wonder how you would deal with such a situation.

> However, if you have a dog which isn't food or toy motivated, you can create food motivation a lot more easily than you can create toy motivation....

In some dogs yes but not all. My latest rescue is most certainly more toy motivated than food motivated. He has a very strong prey drive and this was used to help with his toy motivation.

> Not really.  They do one simple 'cheap' behaviour (sitting and waiting) for a huge massive reward (all their food in one go).  I don't call that 'working' for their dinner...

You are making assumptions. Sitting and waiting from a goodly distance away - a different room, the end of the garden, in one of the cabins in the garden - out of sight and maintaining that position for anything from 1- 15 minutes isn't a "cheap" behaviour in my book. It's a chain of behaviours, a send away, a down or sit at a distance, working out of sight, staying in a requested position and then an instant recall that ends with a jackpot reward I class as working for their food. Sometimes the food is scattered and they have to search for it - I class that as working for their food.

>> I wouldn't put my dogs onto kibble just so they can have raw food as a high value treat.<br />That is completely up to you and your choice.

Yes it is - and I choose to feed raw food :-)

> one dog just can't be bothered with food<br />There might be a correlation, between your previous statement and this one.

Nope - he just isn't a dog that needs to eat each and every day. He maintains great weight and condition, is fit and active and has managed to get to 11 years of age on his own particular eating cycle. Rather like myself - I don't eat every day and that is just how I am and have been for more years than I care to remember.

Not having all my dogs motivated by food isn't a problem for me :-) In fact for agility it is a blessing - my foody dog would find treats dropped by other handlers when he first started agility and was  self rewarding unrequired behaviours. My dog who is totally toy motivated will ignore even the tastiest of treats that have been accidentally dropped. Both dogs have a great leave command but food treats are hard to spot in the sand of an indoor riding school and my foody boy would change course to head for a dropped treat - he would leave the treat when asked to but by that time he was already taking a line that wasn't the optimum one I wanted him to take.

What floats one dog's boat doesn't necessarily float another's.  I have always found finding the greatest motivator for each individual dog has  worked for me. Being flexible in one's approach and adjusting accordingly to suit the individual is my personal way of doing things and so far over the decades, it has worked.

and I do it for free .... wow perhaps a good choice to leave.  everyone on here does it for free just look at the brilliant people here who are happy to give there time without another thought. agree with nikita not all dogs could eat kibble anyway I have two that couldn't unless I wanted them to suffer for the benefit of a recall.
as for dogs that arnt motivated due to raw feeding , that's odd because I belong to raw groups I see dogs every day who are now more food motivated and not just for their dinners but working for their treats none of which are kibble

It's an interesting idea though, I must say - that dogs would have the cognitive ability to not want to bother to work for food on walks because they have amazing food at mealtimes.  Their mealtime food really shouldn't make a difference though, unless the difference lays in how satisfied they are in terms of hunger and nutrition rather than the value of the food itself.  So it would be interesting to see statistics on the difference (although of course this is not at all something easily quantifiable so that will remain wishful thinking). 

I can honestly say that switching all 7 of my dogs to raw back in May has had no negative effect on their food motivation levels (and mine don't have to work for their meals at all).  If anything that motivation has increased, because they are healthier and, perhaps, a little hungrier, because they don't need as much bulk to meet their nutritional requirements.  A large part though will be because I've had to drastically change my treats, due to the allergies, so they are now even higher value (were high value before but even better now) so my group may not be the best example to look at!

One more addition to the poodle recall issue - it may be entirely possible that in a different home, with a different person or indeed, with onetwothreefour directly training him with his/her gundog experience, PN's dog could have an amazing recall.  Very possible.  Dogs can behave completely differently in different places and for different people.  However he is where he is and in that situation, I think recall will be possible but with a lot more time and maturity (and possibly with the help of the suprelorin).  There are lots of variables.

>I remember now why I stopped participating in this site.... It's because it takes me ages to type stuff out, and I do it for free, and everyone thinks they know better.... Whereas I can spend that time teaching my own clients, who are paying me money, and will listen and apply what I say without debating it for 550 pages...   No brainer really.

Presumably when you are charging people you actually listen to what they are telling you and try to offer advice tailored to their actual lives? You are completely correct that your advice will work in the broad sense but seem unwilling to see that you are offering advice I have either already tried or can't/won't follow for the reasons outlined. The trainer trains the owner, the owner trains the dog. Even if you believe all dogs are carbon copies who will be "fixed" with enough pressure applied in the right place, you must realise humans are not? Dogs and people are dynamic creatures, a large part of who they are is related to the families they live in. For better or worse my dog is mine. I'm sure if he was yours he could have a perfect recall. But he doesn't live with your family but with mine.

I know that you don't believe I've made the efforts I've made. I assume you didn't actually look at the Instagram account. If you did you will have seen the short clip of my son signalling my dog into a down and my dog dropping into a down and being rewarded.

My son cannot understand most human language. And he certainly cannot say "down". The hand signals he knows are makaton signs, not obedience signals. And he has a significant learning impairment so it's not as if you can explain it to him once and he'll get it, even if he could understand what you were saying. It took me maybe 3 days to teach the dog to down on that hamd signal. It took me four months to teach my son just the signal. Over and over, day after day, my hand holding his, saying the word in his ear as the dog obeyed and using his hand to pass the treat over. He cannot understand enough for me to explain clarity of signalling to him. But luckily for this dog I don't have to - watch the clip, you will see my dog looking from hand to hand, trying to work out what my son is asking him. He tries SO hard to work for my son. In fact the signals for "open the door" or "lift the loo lid for me" they worked out together, and are both my son pointing at the door handle or the loo and making a noise which he means to be, but isn't, "open now". But the dog has grasped that the "open now" noise means "do what you can with this thing I'm pointing at". He was not treated for doing so because my son wasn't trying to train the dog, he was trying to get in the bathroom for a wee when I wasn't immediately available. What is the dogs motivation to do these things in the absence of treats? You tell me.

As a trainer I'm sure you spend lots of time telling people to use ONE word. Say it ONCE amd CLEARLY. Use the hand signal clearly and try to keep still otherwise, all to give the dog a chance to understand what is wanted. Then treat IMMEDIATELY so the dog knows it has done what was wanted. My son cannot have that explained to him and cannot do it anyway since near constant movement and frequent vocalizations are part of his autism (you can see him go immediately back to clapping on a sock and jumping as soon as he's dropped the treat for the dog). You cannot explain to him the importance of immediately treating (i find the seconds between the down and the treat agony to watch even now and the clip is fairly old). And yet somehow i have brought them together. It wasn't luck. And it definitely wasn't experience as he's the first dog I've owned as an adult. It is because I have painstakingly researched and taken advice including from the good people on here who have always been quick to offer it. I waited 15 months on a waiting list for a pup from the litter of parents with the right temperaments. I did months of research on training classes near me and found an excellent club. I did 7 months of formal training classes and club and only stopped when he became too distracted to work successfully and have continued to train him daily at home and out and about.

Yes. Perfect recall has defeated me so far. He has run off and got into or caused minor bother perhaps 6 or 7 times in his life. But actually I have worked incredibly hard with this dog and continue to do so, and don't think that this one issue, against the backdrop of his other achievements, warrants me being spoken to as if I'm a hopeless idiot and a liar simply because you didn't have any new advice to offer me.

Poodlenoodle
I have utmost admiration for you. Please never doubt yourself. You are a shining light in an increasingly dark world
Jan

p.s.I Have a six year old BC with the same selective recall issue.Like good wine, he is improving with age.

Poodlenoodle - I always read your posts with great interest.  I am full of admiration for what you achieve in your immensely busy (and, no doubt, challenging) family life.  Your descriptions of how you work with your son to help him work with your older poodle are inspiring - and what a clever and lovely dog he obviously is.

What shines through in all your posts is your dedication to doing the very best for and with your human and canine family.  It is always clear that you do an enormous amount of research, planning and practical training to achieve a happy, obedient dog who loves working to help your son.

At 20 months your boy is still very young.  I think, as he matures, you may well achieve that elusive "perfect recall" and it will be interesting to see if the Suprelorin helps.  You are such a responsible owner - I wish all owners who have dogs with unreliable recalls were the same!

I have struggled with the recall with a number of my dogs at various stages of their lives and to varying degrees.  They have all been different but in each case we've cracked it eventually with a lot of care and hard work.

With my newest puppy (seven months old now) I have managed so far to avoid a few of the traps I fell into previously.  So far, so good.  His recall is brilliant at the moment.  No failures yet but I realise that it could still go squiffy if I am not careful.

I know you have Pippa Mattinson's "Total Recall" .  I found this enormously helpful - also Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleased" as someone else has mentioned.  However,  I used Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleased - The Puppy Programme" with my current puppy and found it excellent.  It's not just for puppies as it's also very good for 'going back to basics' if you hit a problem with an older dog.  One of the things I like best about the McDevitt stuff is that she emphasises the importance of recognising dogs as individuals and that they are all different - just like families!

Best of luck with your lad.  I hope you will find the time (!) to continue to post to let us know how things go ...

Blay and Jan what kind words! Thank you! I actually feel I'm just blundering along at life lot but hoping that planning for success will help. The help I've found here has been amazing over the years since I first came asking for advice.

I'll definitely get the control unleashed, as I am planning on going right back to basics in a few weeks when the implant has had time to work. I actually think total recall is very good, it's just that of all motivations the appearance of unknown dogs is the hardest for me to control.

I'm certain I made some mistakes with my older boy. For instance when I first saw how much he loved to play with other dogs I should have quickly used that as a reward for coming when called! Alas I left that too long and he learned for himself that I can actually be ignored. Not a problem I have with my puppy as the second thing I taught him after "come" was the release command "go play"! He loves treats best of all but has also quickly realised that the faster he comes the faster he is given a treat and released for more fun.

I'm off for a walk on the field now, my poor older boy will need to stay on lead but I have roast chicken and German sausage for good boys so that's hopefully some compensation for him. I'll work on his come-front (hoping to eventually get to rally o with them) as he tends to be squinty when distracted. I definitely think testosterone is playing a role here as his impulse control is declining by the day - he jumped up on me today! Not done that since he was 5 months old!

Just a thought, but have you had a break from training lately?  Perhaps that is part of the problem - you have worked so hard with him but maybe it's all getting a bit too much and both of you just need to decompress for a few days or weeks.  Still reward the good stuff, still practice what he knows but without the added pressure of trying to improve stuff, just for a little bit.  Just play and enjoy each other, within the restrictions of what he can't yet do.

Are there any fields near you to hire so he could have some safe off lead time?

Nikita we might be psychically linked!

On the field this afternoon my plans to work on his come front went out the window as with his current testosterone levels he literally couldn't even manage to look at me. He was at the end of the lead sniffing, watching the others run about and constantly scanning the land. A piece of roast chicken which he was going wild over when i was prepping it, was taken after insistent proffers (to try and get his attention) and immediately SPAT OUT.

So I think that's it for him. He can wait for his dinners and have basic manners and help my son put but he's getting 3 weeks off any learning/polishing until his hormones have calmed down. Maybe like a ypung horse he needs some "turning away" to consolidate it all.

His brother has EXACTLY the recall I want. He can be dashing about with another dog, splashing about in the river, sniffing a really good smell or cocking his leg but if I call his name or blow the whistle he practically does a headstand to turn and dash back to me. So at least I know what I'm aiming for.

They're no different to us, sometimes a holiday from work is needed!

The "holiday" from training idea is really interesting.  It also reminded me that when my older boy had a poorly ear for a while we didn't do any "proper" training.  When we resumed he did brilliantly and I remember thinking that the break had done him a lot of good.

I also think that however kindly and positively we train our dogs we can sometimes inadvertently put a bit too much pressure on them.  I found this with retrieving work.  My lad is keen to please and a sensitive chap and at one stage I think I was pushing him on a bit too fast.  I backed right off, went back to lots of fun games and NO retrieving.   When we restarted he was a different dog.  Much more relaxed, happy and enjoying every minute of the training.  Lesson learned - for me!

(Also the other day he suddenly offered me a "High Five".  I must have just unconsciously put my hand in the relevant position.  I hadn't practised this little trick with him for about two years - but he remembered.  Amazing)

Tiny update for merrypaws - both urine samples were dipped and clear and vet declined to culture in the absence of other symptoms (he didn't regard the frequency of humping as symptomatic but said he will culture if it continues beyond the implants effect).

> I also think that however kindly and positively we train our dogs we can sometimes inadvertently put a bit too much pressure on them.

Definitely.  I usually see that more when dealing with reactive/anxious/aggressive dogs - many owners want their dogs to eventually be good all-rounders and able to go anywhere, meet any dog/human etc and in having that goal, unconsciously put pressure on both themselves and the dog and it blocks progress.  When we drop those goals, the pressure is lifted and often the dog then progresses much faster.  In those cases, breaks from working on the issue are absolutely essential to make that progress and I believe the same is true of any training.  Having a break often allows the dog's brain to process what's been taught as well, improving learning, much as if we are struggling with a problem and we walk away for a little bit, the solution can suddenly pop into our heads when we then go back to it.  We need that processing time, just as dogs do, and some more often or in longer chunks than others.

Hi Poodlenoodle, I'm glad the samples were clear.  From my experience, the unwanted interest didn't occur once the suprelorin was effective, likewise no interest in in-season bitches. We only found the struvite because of repeated utis, but the most recent flare-up was not associated with infection and it was only the behaviour of my other dog which revealed it.

I've been following with interest the lively discussion your posts have stimulated.  Thank you for starting it.

Well a one week update.

Dog is 26kg (loss of 200g but I weighed him at a different time of day so not hugely accurate). He does feel a bit bonier but he goes through phases of getting rather railing like so it might not be related.

One week in I note a definite change in certain behaviour. He sniffs us when we come in as if we'd been cuddling a bitch in heat. On walks he is entirely distracted, tries to drag us to sniff, marks every few feet, salivates heavily at particularly interesting smells and whenever he isn't sniffing is constantly scanning the horizons. He hasn't been off lead except in dog runs since he ran off so I've no idea how bad his recall is right now but given how unresponsive he is on the lead I'd be scared to even try the long line as I don't think he'd be able to spare a single thought for me and would easily pull me off my feet if he got any speed up.

He is still playing with his brother but is making more serious noises (similar to those he makes when playing with his same-age lab friend). Not sure if this is because HE is more testosteroney or because the pup is as he is now 8 months old and definitely pubescent. The pup is unafraid and enjoying the slightly rougher games but I am stopping them after a few minutes to stop things getting out of hand.

We've had no aggression of any sort, just the sniffing, marking and massive excitement at any passing dog (including those just visible on the hill beside the house a half a mile away!). I'm keeping them seperate using crates whenever im not here, but so far so amicable.

Around the house, if anything he is a bit cuddlier than usual. He's normally quite aloof. But that could just be seeking reassurance because he feels a bit weird.

Week 2 update. More of the same but MORE. Deaf on walks, especially at the start. Couldn't stop sniffing to eat a liver treat on his off lead walk today (in a dog run). A bit more humping this week and gave his brother a real telling off on Thursday for humping HIM - it sounded awful to me but the pup just gave high pitched barking yelps and rolled over which instantly defused the situation, and 10 seconds later tried again! (I prevented THAT!). Constant sniffing all the time of us and any guests. Has taken to vaguely harassing my daughters if allowed (which he isn't) following them around sniffing where he's not welcome. Not as interested in the males of the household and wouldn't dare with me!

He's still great with my son and mostly obedient with a slight downturn in impulse control.

SUPRELORIN implant
Can anyone out there who has used this implant for their bitch reply with advice/experience after reading my case history.
I own PRT's and decided to try Suprelorin for my young 6 month old bitch as soon as she showed signs of her first season.
She then had two further implants at 6 month intervals and May 2017 I did not have another one for her and let nature take its course.
Blood test were done in June 2017 for my benefit to see her bloods are normal and ensure she is healthy for a litter. As many bitches look healthy but could have underlying problems, so it good she's healthy all over etc.
It is now December 2017( 7 months past when an implant was due ) and she still has had no season. My vet said 'let nature take its course' and he advised no need to worry till about February 2018.
Can anyone advise of their experience as a breeder.
I admit I'll not use this drug again as the waiting process is causing more problems than the benefits of the reasons why I used it in the first place.
Thanks in advance all.

Er... Suprelorin is for male dogs....

Hi, most people think its for dogs and not bitches. However, whilst mainly used for dogs it is used for other species also. My vet researched  all before taking this on. It's used in the USA alot, but I need other breeders take or experience whatever breed.

I've not heard of suprelorin being used for bitches, however from my experience with my dog it can take as long as 2 years to clear their system. My boy only had one implant and it took almost 2 years for his testicles to return to normal size. A friend used it for her lab boy and it lasted pretty much exactly 6 months so I guess it may depend on dog size and weight amongst other things. My boy weighs around 18kg.

Suprelorin is only licensed for male dogs and male ferrets, and should not be used before the dog is mature eg usually around 18 months of age. There are two different strengths, one lasting 6 months the other 12. To treat a 6 months old bitch goes against everything it is for. At the very least your vet should have had you sign to agree to off label use. I think it's unlikely that you will find somebody else having used it on a bitch.

I’ve heard of suprelorin being used in bitches for incontinence as well as neutered dogs. My friend uses it on her castrated male. But not heard of it used to prevent seasons/promote infertility in bitches.

It is likely to last much longer than the stated six months, as in male dogs of smaller sizes. It’s stated that it shouldn’t be used on animals you wish to breed from in the future as there are no guarantees of future fertility.

As mentioned above, it should not have been used on an immature animal. Who knows what the long term effects will be. You are very unlikely to find an answer to your question, because even if you find someone who has used it for infertility in bitches, it does not mean your bitch will progress in the same way. Most males regain fertility, but some don’t.

As Goldmali says, Suprelorin is most definitely for male dogs.  The Noah Compendium data sheet, which contains the way it is licensed to be used, can be found here:  http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-460773  for the 6 month version and here: http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-460786 for the 12 month version. 

"For the induction of temporary infertility in healthy, entire, sexually mature male dogs for up to at least 12 months and ferrets for up to 4 years."  "Target species
Dogs (male)." 

No mention of it being licensed for use on bitches at all, and I've never heard of it being used in this way. 

As Goldmali says, it is not recommended that it's used in pre-pubertal dogs (even entire males):  "The use of Suprelorin in pre-pubertal dogs has not been investigated. It is therefore recommended that dogs should be allowed to reach puberty before treatment with the veterinary medicinal product is initiated."

And it should not be used for animals intended for breeding purposes as it's not been tested in this way:  "The ability of dogs to sire offspring following their return to normal plasma testosterone levels, after the administration of the veterinary medicinal product, has not been investigated."

All this information is on the data sheet linked to above, publicly accessible...

I have never heard of it being used on a bitch, ever.

PS:  Far from it being 'used a lot in the USA", Suprelorin is not licensed for use in the USA at all (on male dogs or any dog):  http://www.acc-d.org/available-products/suprelorin-male-dogs  "Developed by Peptech Animal Health, which was later purchased by Virbac Animal Health, Suprelorin is approved for male dog contraception in Australia, New Zealand (4.7mg dose only), and the European Union."  It is licensed to be used on ferrets in the USA:  https://us.virbac.com/product/hormone/suprelorin-f-implant 

I suspect you are talking about another drug that has been given to your bitch - but any hormonal drug given to a 6 month old bitch, doesn't sound like a good idea to be honest...

This was already checked via Vet University and manufacturers scientists before using via my vet and it can and does get used on bitches. I just want to hear from those who have used it or had used on their bitches. I know not very many exist but the Vet University advised there are a number of vets in UK who prescribe for bitches.
This is just to get further info off others and their experiences. My bitch could take upto 2 years the wind down off this drug, but is could of been just 6 months in the same way.

would it have been this deslorelin  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19754533 rather than superlorin  ?

Sounds like it, furriefriends

https://1drv.ms/i/s!ApnOzVLq7ASkj0BbKZ-ZsKrwCRgU
See above OneDrive attachment. Lets me put this to bed.
I have done all the research, enquiries and vets, universities and off prescription research etc before using.
It is Suprelorin 4.7 dose for 6 months duration each implant.
Please, I only want breeders who have used this and their experiences if there is anyone out there.
I wont reply to others, but by all means continue the discussion.

I doubt you will find any"breeders"who have used Superlorin(the drug BTW is Deslorelin Acetate not Superlorin which is the commercial name for the drug) in this way here in the UK.

There has been some research done on  use in prepubescent females that has been published
, however it was NOT done to develop it for use in BREEDING bitches but with a view for use in population control in the rescue population.

Ditto, I've never heard of it being used on a bitch and very much doubt you're going to find anyone who has.

I went to a repro seminar a few years back and the specialist said it can be used in bitches too.

Maybe speak to agelika the repro specialist in cambridge as she was the one doing the talk. Its not common for it to be used in bitches in the uk so thats what i would do in this case.

> I only want breeders who have used this and their experiences if there is anyone out there.

I think you will not find breeders using such a product, as experience in the past has shown that interfering with a bitches reproductive cycle can have negative effects on potential future fertility.

Those not wishing to breed will simply most often opt for a spay as in the UK this does not have a negative effect in most breeds on showing or competing in other canine sports.

In those breeds where detrimental effects to coat occur after spaying most exhibitors simple deal with having an entire bitch.

Pet owners are encouraged to spay my the veterinary profession ASAP, often before puberty, though some are now accepting the negative effects of pre-pubertal neutering.

Thank you Suejaw for the heads up.
Will research the specialist concerned and contact if I can.

http://www.vetrepro.co.uk

Thank you. I found her and have sent an email.
Thank you very much for your help. I will pass this info to my vet also for reference.

Great news!

That was an interesting side conversation. I have no experience in female dogs but I do know that very similar medications are used in human prepubescent transgender children to block puberty so the child has the chance to grow and mature without going through their biological puberty (which is a major trigger for suicide in many young transgender people and which necessitates more significant surgery if they decide to have gender reassignment). Many then go on to have reassignment surgery while under the influence but if discontinued instead, normal puberty occurs. I would guess your bitch will recover her hormones on a similar timeline to other dogs of her size/weight.

A four week update here...

He is still ignorant off lead (still only in dog runs for this) but slightly less so - his brother comes immediately when called, he comes within 5 or 10 seconds. But a good smell still has him "too busy". He is no longer licking his brothers privates or frantically sniffing crotches, which he was at the peak of the "surge". He is still desperate to get to and sniff any other dogs.

At the very peak of the hormone surge we had a disaster. My hung over (after a vanishingly rare night out) husband and I took them to walk and I put him on his long line which husband was holding. We got to our normal field and a dog walker I hate was there with eleven dogs off lead and running about. I set about calling the pup and getting his lead back on him, meanwhile my husband called the older dog in and he came mostly back but then changed his mind as one of the 11 was dashing and barking at us. He ran and my husband stood staring dumbly after him until he ran out of lead. 26kg of dog going at about 40mph pulled him 10 feet through the air and tore the tendon of the fingertip of his right pinkie finger. He had surgery to repair it on the 21st of december and is in several dozen stitches and plaster now. Christmas was fun with me having to help him shower, take meds, and cut his food as well as looking after crazy kids and doing all the Christmas work.

Oh, no ... so sorry to hear about your husband's injury, Poodlenoodle.

As if you didn't have enough on your many plates already.

Given the circumstances I guess his injury could easily have been even worse.

I hope he recovers as swiftly as possible.  Maybe no more long lines for a while?  (Husband, not Poodle!)

I hope your New Year is more peaceful.  XX

A 6? week update now.

I am definitely seeing some hormone related changes. Incessant marking has become 2 or 3 big wees on each walk. His testicles have begun to shrink and he is slightly more puppyish than he was (playful and less aloof).

The long line is off the table unless I am out with only him in the fields. I am currently in training for a marathon distance walk in aid if my son's special needs school so there have been more street walks of late.

I let him off lead on Sunday for the first time out of a dog run since the incident which sparked all this happening in November. He and his brother and a Labrador friend chased madly around with a Y shaped stick for about ten minutes. He ignored recall until we called the other dogs in. As soon as there was nobody to play chase with he eagerly recalled at the first ask wriggling with joy and was immediately jackpotted with a large handful of chopped hamburger.

So work to be done but I am ready to do it. I've been looking for ways to make onetwothreefours advice somehow fit our life/feeding/dogs since we all see/agree it is a good principle. I am not switching him to kibble but I have begun to handfeed one meal. Tonight both dogs got 1.5 lamb hearts which they earned (seprately) by learning to stand their forepaws up onto a step stool and getting off it again. They each got a duck neck to round the meal out (dog had his while pup was having his hearts, poor pup had to wait in his crate while dog had hearts but waiting is good for him). Unfortunately with my husband still in plaster I can't really hand feed in the mornings as I have all the kids to dress and feed and get to school but once he is healed (in March according to physio!) hopefully.

Door opening poodles are handy with temporarily disabled husbands!

Another update. Almost 3 months in now.

He is 26kg still. Testes have now shrunk to around half their original size.

Behaviour wise some changes are subtle and others significant. He remains very excited to greet and play with other dogs. But he is much quicker to calm down when told it's not playtime. Previously he would be staring after a dog for hundreds of yards after passing it, now he gets ten feet away and gets on with his life. He is much more puppyish in his play behaviours. No humping at all, although he will still put a paw across a playmates back to induce a chase, if the other dog tells him off he quickly switches to bowing instead of being a nuisance. He is cuddlier again too, as he was as a puppy. He became very aloof in puberty but it's only now I see it really.

Recall, the issue which began all this, is a work in progress but much much improved. Today he was able to be unleashed with his brother and 2 other known friendly dogs in an old golf course (so quite enclosed but huge and public) and came back every time I whistled. I don't know if he'd come off a strange (exciting) dog but I am working hard to set him up for success just now. Lots of other dogs came past and each time i was able to leash mine before they ran off to nosey at them.

All in all I'm pleased with how things are going and am planning to get him a 12 month implant when the 6 month one wears off to give him plenty of time for good habits to solidify. Permanent castration remains a decision we can't decide on.

Wow cant believe its 3 months Thanks for the update, pleased its proving to be a positive outcome

Thanks for the update. I have been following this thread as I have considered this for one of my boys.

"Permanent castration remains a decision we can't decide on."

Can I ask why you are undecided? Have you noted any negative affects of the Suprelorin?

Gundogs the only thing I have found as a downside is that it has changed his coat a bit. He was in a nice 6 inches of coat and I have recently had to take him down to 10mm with only long poms, tail and mane. I do his grooming so he was brushed out fully every 3 or 4 days (brushed every day but a different part each day) and groomed (bath, blast, blow out and shave/ scissor trim) every 2 to 3 weeks and he was more mat than dog despite that! But it's possible that this was a one off effect (an acceleration of the typical "coat change" of puberty) which a longer period on the implant should clarify.

As a couple hubby and I struggle to do anything "final" anyway, in all spheres of life. At the moment I think I would happily castrate as I think he has had the benefit of keeping his balls longer than the typical 6 months many vets advise, but equally if someone could tell me at age 3, entire, he would retain all of his good qualities and training and not go back to the frantic hormonal stuff of puberty then I probably wouldn't bother castrating. Time will hopefully help to crystallize our thoughts.