Hello to all.

A small update for those who know me first... the boys are 20 months and 7 months old now. The youngster passed his puppy and foundation obedience certificates with flying colours and as a people centred and food driven sort is an absolute joy to work with. The older boy has grown and filled out into a stunning boy and has mastered several little household tasks that help me and my autistic son out around the home.

It is however my older boy who brings me here to ask about suprelorin. Many of you gave advice a long time ago when, as hormones first kicked in at 6 months, he first ran off and ignored recall and ended up in a nasty incident with another owner who stuck his face with a chain.  Thereafter we used a long line for a year. Training has continued and unhappy incidents along with them. He is never aggressive, but he rushes off after any and every dog and though he approaches bowing and wagging he is too fast and too keen and he scares other dogs at times.

He has been off the long line for a few months and my technique has been to watch all the time and recall and leash him as soon as I see anyone on the horizon. I was hoping that preventing him from getting the "reward" for running off (of getting to interact/play with other dogs) while working on his training, I would hopefully eliminate the problem. However I feel now we are just going around in circles. Yesterday I lost him for about 5 minutes (as in he was out of sight) the first time since he was off the long line and though I didn't witness the encounter I heard the owner of the other dog he'd decided to go after roaring at him so I know he made an unwelcome advance. I've now made an appointment with the vet to discuss suprelorin.

It isn't just this selectively ignoring the recall that concerns me. He is also distracted around other dogs (such as in obedience class) to the point that you cant work him at all - he quickly accepts he isn't allowed to go and jump all over others, but then sits panting, looking frantic, won't even sniff a treat let alone accept one. I have tried only feeding him during training - he can be vomiting bile with emptiness and still won't take a treat if there are other dogs. So it's very hard to work on reducing his sensitivity as literally if there are no dogs visible he is rock solid and brilliantly obedient. If there are any dogs visible, ever a quarter of a mile away, he is deaf and blind but for them. Once he is caught again after running off you have to keep him leashed as he stares intently after them for 5 minutes and will go after them if released for another 5 or 10.

I don't think it's my training. I have inadvertently trained 3 other unrelated dogs to come to my whistle by working on his recall when out with them. My younger dog is rock solid even though early puberty is in full swing (it's too early to really tell obviously). My trainer has said I should have him more focussed on me but I have tried everything - he's so distracted that short of putting on a fur suit soaked in in-season bitch wee I don't know what else to try!

Advice is welcome, and more information will be forthcoming if you need it. My main idea for suprelorin is a) it may allow him to become less distracted enough that training is more possible and b) it will give him time to further mature. I'm not planning on breeding him ever (you will remember I was undecided- this has decided me!) But I don't take chopping bits of him off lightly. The vet we are seeing on Monday is brilliant - very experienced, very pragmatic and has cared for both my dog and his parents since they (the parents) were pups.

Sorry to break into two posts but i wanted to give more info.

He is distracted at home - if I go out and leave both boys with a stuffed kong the pup settles down to enjoy his, the older boy spends his whole time looking out the window and I come home to find it untouched. He eats his meals well, is raw fed and in (according to the vet) beautiful condition.

When we meet up with others to walk (there are "dog fields" near us which are private and enclosed and we sometimes club together with other owners of friendly dogs and share the cost to hire the field) he relentlessly humps any new dogs. If prevented he accepts it while on lead and as soon as released goes back to humping. He tries this with every dog regardless of age, sex and whether neutered or not. If the other dog actually snaps at him he stops, anything short of that and he continues. It's as if he doesn't know what else to do with an unfamiliar dog but attempt to hump it. He does not hump dogs he's familiar with or his brother and he does not snap at dogs that try to hump him.

He stopped marking indoors (I did post about it once) after being caught in the act and told off a few times, but on walks he marks every 5 yards and even if you walk him for an hour will still do a big wee at the front gate because he's held it to mark so much that his bladder is still half full.

He follows his brother, licking at his man parts and sniffing him a LOT. Again he will come off if told but goes back to it after a few minutes. This only really began with the puppy's puberty - he has been lifting a leg for about a month - and he does have a bit of a leaky prepuce which I'm sure has an effect.

He is more aloof since puberty but still loving. His brother is very affectionate so the differemce is noticeable but I don't feel he is ignorant of us. He remains extremely patient and kind with the children. He will work using hand signals for my non verbal child. He is very keen to train when not distracted by other dogs amd enjoys his daily training sessions with me. When there aren't other dogs about his impulse control is excellent.

I have read a lot about suprelorin and feel it is a decent thing to try. I have read some terrible experiences but all bar one with fear aggressive dogs. He isn't overtly aggressive at all (though certainly trying to hump strange dogs is certainly received as aggression by some, but I mean he never snaps or growls at others except mouthing and growling when in play with a known playmate who is also growling and mouthing him), and I would say very confident. I am aware initially the testosterone will surge and that it will take 6 to 8 weeks to see the effect. I realise it may change his coat.

I feel mostly that I need to find a way to keep him safe. I have no idea what the owner yesterday did - I couldn't see them. But my dog had come off his already when I caught him, i heard the man shouting and I would guess he was at least kicked because he isn't easily dissuaded (he simply ignores the humans unless they physically catch him or hurt him). I don't let him off near any roads but if I lost him and the other owner went through a gate he would happily run into traffic to get to another dog. We've been lucky that he's not been attacked by another dog. I don't want him to end up on lead at all times, he's a big young dog who loves to run and play. But I'm a bit stumped now.

I don't know if I'll neuter. It would depend on whether the implant helps as I'd hope, whether training undertaken while under the influence of it sticks when it wears off, whether he is actually a happier, calmer dog without his hormones driving him.

But at the moment I feel although it has been on less than 10 occasions, I am that owner with the dog who is jumping all over your dog and won't go away. Despite 18 months of positive training efforts. Despite all the research and reading I've done. Despite all the work. And I'm simply not willing to be that owner. Its common, but to me it's untenable. A friend suggested a GPS tracker yesterday. I just think if I KNOW a GPS tracker might be helpful then I have no business letting him off at all.

I had a similar problem with one of mine when he reached puberty and unfortunately we met an in season bitch, twice in one week on two separate walks. Same bitch, both popular dog walking areas! He then got the idea that every dog he could see in the distance would smell as nice so took off after them all. I got him the suprelorin implant while of course reinforcing training.

The implant worked well in some ways, he became much less interested in smells and strange dogs in the distance and this let me continue to have him off lead and work on his recall, which is now still perfect even though the implant wore off 2 years ago.

For this particular dog though, on the whole, I wish I hadn't done it, and I'm very very grateful I didn't have him neutered. He needs his testosterone, being of a sensitive sighthound breed anyway he became quite spooky. He also became attractive to other male dogs, this coupled with his spookiness was a bit of a nightmare and he was subjected to unwanted attention, luckily he's a very sweet boy and simply hid behind me, I think a lot of dogs in the same situation could become snappy.

Also of course his testicles shrunk, and while I had allowed for this for 6 months over the winter the effects lasted almost two years, he got several 2nd places where he could have done better and I have show reports commenting on his small testicles!

When it finally wore off he went back to being confident and happy, but older and much better behaved. It's hard to know how quickly his behaviour may have improved without the implant but I don't think I would use it again.

I have used Suprelorin in a similar but not identical situation.  My older entire male started becoming a "sex-pest" around the time the younger one (also entire) reached puberty, and after various attempts at training I had the implant done.  It lasted (for him) for 9 months.  The first month was ghastly, a previously gentle dog became quite aggressive around the youngster although he no longer pestered him, and separation was necessary.  After that it was bliss, back to his normal lovely self, not pestering the younger dog, less distracted on walks and staying near me when off-lead whatever the enticing smells.  At the end of the 9 months, although still gentle and non-aggressive he reverted to the more slightly aloof dog, more distracted when in-season females were around and inclined to make his own decisions about which way to go.

However, later events have made me wonder if I was right.  The problem actually originated with my youngster, who had several urinary tract infections and was then diagnosed as having struvite crystals in his urine, both of which make him smell like a female ready to mate. No infection or crystals, no pestering.  The presence of crystals in the urinary tract cause irritation and my youngster humps (not other dogs, but his cushion bed) to try to relieve it; again, no crystals, no humping.

From this (very limited! ) experience, I would suggest getting both your boys' urine tested for the presence of infection and/or crystals as a cause for humping.  You are unlikely to get very far with other owners in suggesting similar causes for unwanted humping of their dogs (although if you are on good enough terms with any you might suggest it).

If you can rule out such causes, or you find and resolve them but don't see an improvement in his behaviour, I would suggest trying the Suprelorin - be prepared for possible aggression (although not everyone who has had the implant has found it) - the duration is limited and you will then have information to let you judge what to do next.

Thank you chaumsong. Can I ask how old he was when you had the implant put in?

Also do you think the implant wore off at 6 months but the testicles took longer to recover? Or that it lasted longer? I have read it can last 18 months or even indefinitely in toy breads and only 4 or 5 months in giants. My boy is a largish standard poodle but lean, around 28kg.

And thank you merrypaws!

I will be taking the younger boy in anyway for something else so I'll have the urine angle checked. I'm less inclined to think it's that because the older boy humps EVERY unfamiliar dog but nothing inanimate and no people. They can't all have these crystals, and if he did I feel he would hump more indiscriminately. The licking at his brother is fairly new and I'm sure related to the younger dogs puberty, as it began when I also began to notice the drippy prepuce. The youngster humps the older playfully for a few seconds at a time when they are playing but not obsessively, never unfamiliar dogs or objects or people.

Have you considered teaching him to relax? I would possibly remove him from group training classes and work on him 121 and maybe get someone in on teaching him to relax and not be so alert and frustrated.

Suprelorin may or may not work for this depending on whether it's his hormones which are causing the issues.

> I'm less inclined to think it's that because the older boy humps EVERY unfamiliar dog but nothing inanimate and no people. They can't all have these crystals, and if he did I feel he would hump more indiscriminately.

Nevertheless I would have your older boy tested too, he may have an irritation which he tries to remove by humping, and his canine mind tells him to hump other dogs, as "irritant removers" rather than as sexual partners, and "nothing else will do" (my humper only humps one of the beds, nothing else, and then only when he has a flare-up). 

Anyway, very best of luck;  it certainly sounds as though your elder boy is - this aside - turning out very well.

Hi Suejaw, yes I have taught him relax. Very handy for grooming with him being a poodle. He can do it really well in several settings and not at all with a strange dog visible. It's so difficult to desensitise him because the second he notices the other dog (we started with the other dog 700 yards away on a disused golf course) I cease to exist. He can even "relax" a bit on the table with blaster on the back of his shoulders (he's really not a huge fan of the blaster!), but not near a potential dog to investigate.

I will definitely mention the urine possibility to the vet for both boys, I just doubt it's the issue but it's a stone to turn certainly.

Oh and no, he's not in group training at the moment because I'd begun to feel it was unkind. He does have at least one session 1 2 1 with me every day, more sometimes (I do have the pup to train and 3 kids, amd the house and all the autism so more is hard to manage, but I managed to make one session before dinner fit into the daily routine so it's rarely missed).

I would suggest for now that you keep him on a long line. If he runs up to the wrong dog it could end up as a situation you would rather not have. One of my rescue dogs was brilliant with all dogs until another dog kept jumping on him, he was on lead and the other dog was off lead. He now won't tolerate another dog entering his space and will react to them. It has made walking really, really difficult and what used to be a real pleasure has now become an ordeal at times.

If your dog meets another dog that really tells him off he might feel he needs to retaliate and that could well cause problems in the future. Not only problems for him but it also causes problems for other owners - such as myself. I have spent huge amounts of time getting my reactive dog to ignore other dogs and it takes just one unfortunate encounter to set his training back a long way and I am fast becoming very disenchanted with other owners who let their dogs run up to others even when you call out to them to please not let it happen. I know you are a responsible owner and don't want your dog to be running up to others but it only takes one negative encounter for things to go pear shaped - my dog was jumped on three times by the other dog who took no notice of him telling it to back off and that was all it took to change his previously happy disposition into a fearful one.

I know you are trying to resolve the situation and wish you well with it but in the meantime you need to keep your dog, and others, safe.

Oh he will be on lead until I have taken definitive action. Or off lead in the paid-for private dog park with only his brother or known pals. No worries there.

Ooh I've just found TWO new local dogruns to try and booked one. The one I usually use is down hill of an old quarry and the silt mud is a pain in the bum in a poodle coat.

Silver lining.

> Can I ask how old he was when you had the implant put in?

About 16 months

> Also do you think the implant wore off at 6 months but the testicles took longer to recover? Or that it lasted longer?

It definitely lasted almost 2 years, there was a marked change in his bravery levels at the same time as his testicles went back to their normal size.

> I have read it can last 18 months or even indefinitely in toy breads and only 4 or 5 months in giants.

That makes sense, he's around 18kg. If my vet had told me that I probably wouldn't have went ahead, she simply said it lasts 6 months!

We're just back from the vet. He agreed with me that at the point where he is frantic around other dogs and wandering on walks action is appropriate and the 6 month suprelorin implant was given. Got the crates and gates ready so if need be they can be separated while it starts to work.

Good luck.  Hope you find it helpful.  Let us know how it goes.

I'm starting this to keep a record of this experience so that, whatever happens, others looking for advice as I was can read it when making their own decision.

Dog is a male standard poodle, 20 months old, 26.2kg, 27" at the shoulder.

Given the 6 month suprelorin implant today 27/11/17, mainly to see if it curbs his wandering habit and reduces frantic interactions with other dogs which are playful on his part but far too full on and tending to humping. A decision will be made on castration in the future, based on how he responds to suprelorin and how he matures during the period it's active.

Vet inserted the implant behind the shoulder blades. Area was not shaved or prepared particularly that I saw (though I was holding his head so it could have been stabbed and is have missed it). Dog didn't flinch, his breathing altered for one breath as the (huge!) needle went it, but that was all.

He's been acting normally since, lots of sniffing and overexcitement on walk and ridiculous flaunting and bouncing at the sight of a distant dog.

He is less playful with his 7mo brother than he has been, but this has been a trend on going for several weeks now. Pup is now in puberty and I think older dog is trying to tell him the same puppyish behaviour won't be tolerated. At the moment he just doesn't react to the pup. I'm keeping them separated (by gate or crate) whenever I'm not physically there in the room with them just in case the initial hormone surge frays tempers.

I wish you good luck but this is a training issue, IMO - and not likely to result in huge improvement with Suprelorin.

Very best wishes for a successful outcome.

> Vet inserted the implant behind the shoulder blades. Area was not shaved or prepared particularly that I saw (though I was holding his head so it could have been stabbed and is have missed it). Dog didn't flinch, his breathing altered for one breath as the (huge!) needle went it, but that was all.
>

The experience with my dog was similar - rather like the insertion of a microchip - and no distress to the dog.

Can I ask onetwothreefour what helps you to kniw if it is hormonal or behavioural and also how you would approach retraining a recall? I feel I really have done due diligence with his training and this is the only situation I can't crack so I'm always interested to hear new things to try.

Well, you'll soon know 100% for sure (in a few weeks)...

I said that based on what you said in the other thread about his behaviour.  None of it seemed to me to be stemming from testosterone, and it seemed instead just exuberant adolescent/young dog behaviour - which needs training, to address.  (I'm a trainer and behaviourist.)

To train a recall, you first need to ensure you have excellent food motivation.  That means teaching a dog to work for food, so they value it - including meals.  It means assessing whether you are feeding something extra tasty twice a day as 'normal' food (raw or wet food) - if you are, you are giving the dog amazing food, for free, twice a day - so it's not surprising he doesn't want to work for a lesser amount of less tasty treats.  I  suggest feeding a high quality kibble and training at home with your dog's meals.  Don't use the kibble for recalls though - that always gets something better.

Assuming you've fixed the food motivation, I'd then suggest using extra amazing food for recalls.  Owners often think they are using 'amazing' food but it turns out they are using hotdogs or something.  Extra amazing, is stinky and squishy.  It means sardines, mackerel, gourmet wet dog food, pate.... delivered with a plastic toddler spoon...

Then it means progressively drilling the recall, over and over.  Starting out at home, 20-30x a day for a week.  Then still at home practising away from a food distraction (someone waving food around the dog's nose to distract the dog, but not letting them eat it).  Then out on walks using a 10m long line and calling the dog between two people.  Then still out on walks with the long-line trailing and timing recalls for moments when you know the dog will respond well and getting 10 reps of that, each walk.  You can't do this with two dogs - you need to train one dog at a time.  Then increasing what you expect the dog to recall back away from, as the dog shows you they are successful.

Unfortunately that describes what I did until he was 14 months old, which was when I moved him completely onto a raw diet. His brother arrived here when he was 15 months. I do still work him alone every day, as well as working him and the pup together and the pup alone.

From his first day here I have blown the whistle when putting his food down, starting with every meals and moving to only extra special foods. I have practiced recall every day with exceptions only when I'm ill or it's Christmas day or something. I have taught him relax. I have taught him the on/off game. I have enlisted willing helpers with distractor dogs who are completely disinterested in other dogs to walk past or rather walk miles away where they are barely visible.

His recall is completely solid except from away from dogs. I can and do/have called him off food, leaves, running cats, running people, disinterested sheep, a running rabbit (only twice) and a deer (only once).

He was never particularly food motivated though and this is obviously a huge problem. The first four months on the long line he was on orijen kibble at home and bits of raw or partially baked liver (i do one of those tesrs where you offer them two things at a time to develop a hierarchy every few months) for recall and he STILL ran to the end of his line and ignored me if there was another dog visible. My trainers suggested not feeding for the entire day when he became excessively distracted in training club and he merely vomited bile in between attempts to get to or just whining/staring at the other dogs and moved his face away from treats held directly in front of his nose. I rode a stallion when I was a teenager and his deaf/blind/eyes only for the dog behaviour is exactly what he did around a likely looking mare. That's why I'm thinking it's hormonal.

Another factor is that his brother, who has always been much more food motivated and cuddly than him, has a brilliant recall. Today in the dog run the next two dogs in arrived early. My dogs ran to the fence to investigate. I said their names (they were about 50m away) and the pup came immediately and sat for me to put his lead on (he had realised that I put the lead on at the end of the fun so I'm putting it on for every recall right now) and get a treat. My older boy didn't even look at me.

I really hope the implant helps or he'll need a brain transplant.

While I'm all for training in as positive way as possible, what do you do in situations where the dog ignores you as you describe above? The dog needs to understand that coming back to you is 1) fab (he gets a treat or fav toy) and 2) not optional.

I wish I knew Gundogs. I had started making dark jokes about shock collars but they ARE only jokes. Even if one decided to go down that route I don't know how you would make the dog associate the discomfort with ignoring you and not associate it with the other dog - could make a dog dog-aggressive.

The biggest frustration to me is that it is ONLY other dogs. You can sit a raw steak down in front of him and call him and he'll come. You can have someone run across a field flapping his favourite toys and call him and he'll come. The problem always is that food/I am second. After dogs. Before sheep and toys and cats and cars and postman and and and. But after dogs.

He wasn't always like this. In fact until 5 months he was motivated by food for everything, although it had to be decent food. He's never worked for kibble or even shop bought training treats except for very high end types. In fact if I had to trace it back it was after meeting an in season bitch that he began to change.

>Unfortunately that describes what I did until he was 14 months old, which was when I moved him completely onto a raw diet.

I would not have moved a dog showing any recall problems onto a raw diet.  It means you are feeding twice a day, a delicious food, for free.  Why would a dog want to come back for anything less?  The reinforcement hierarchy is screwed up... Many dogs can eat raw or wet food and still maintain excellent food motivation.  Many cannot...

>From his first day here I have blown the whistle when putting his food down, starting with every meals and moving to only extra special foods.

I would not have reinforced a recall with his regular food.  A recall should always mean something amazing - BETTER than what he usually gets a lot of, twice a day. 

I also would not have given him his entire meal in one go like that.  I'd have made him work for every piece of kibble (or every few pieces) as we practised general training until his meal had run out.  If he wandered off or lost interest at any point, I'd have thrown it back in the bag and stopped training and given no more food until the next meal time.

>His recall is completely solid except from away from dogs. I can and do/have called him off food, leaves, running cats, running people, disinterested sheep, a running rabbit (only twice) and a deer (only once).

What is he like at training clubs and do you still attend group training with other dogs with him?

>He was never particularly food motivated though and this is obviously a huge problem.

Yes, this is the underlying problem.  Nothing will be addressed unless you have control over motivators.  Not all dogs are toy motivated, because they don't need to play to survive.  But all dogs ARE food motivated - or they would die.  If your dog isn't food motivated, you haven't let him reach the point of being hungry enough to value food and/or you are feeding him very tasty food for free now - with the raw - which is only going to make things worse. 

I've never owned a dog that's not food motivated.  From the second they come into our house, they work/train for all their meals and all food they get.  If they won't work for it, they don't get it.  When they're retired, they get tasty wet food, lots of it, for free, without having to do anything for it - and because of their earlier years of learning to value food, their food motivation is maintained.

>bits of raw or partially baked liver

Liver isn't always the most amazing thing for all dogs.  Whilst dogs to vary in their preferences when it comes to food, generally speaking there are some rules of thumb.  Which are:  Wet, squishy, smelly food works best.  Oily fish (mackerel, sardine) works well.  Pate works well.  Gourmet dog food works well.  And then making sure you never get stuck on one thing but cycle through different things, so they never know what they're going to get.  If you keep using the same thing, they will stop responding and get bored of it. 

>I rode a stallion when I was a teenager and his deaf/blind/eyes only for the dog behaviour is exactly what he did around a likely looking mare. That's why I'm thinking it's hormonal.

But the difference (unless I've missed something) is that this isn't happening only around female dogs in season, or only male dogs (competition) - but all dogs.  If he is equally distracted by ALL dogs, that's not something related to hormones. 

Hormones don't generally result in a dog wanting to pursue every dog they see, that's a training problem.  It often happens when young puppies and dogs have been allowed excess rough play with other dogs in puppyhood and this has imprinted as being a truly amazing thing, better than anything you can provide.  Equally, it can sometimes happen when a dog has been deprived of contact with any other dogs and so is desperate for it - but that is less common.  Far more common is (not saying this is you) an owner who thinks that 'walking the dog' involves going out and hoping to run into other dogs for their dog to tear around and run amok with, all the time 'enjoying' watching them play like this, then grabbing them and putting the lead on.  The dog learns that other dogs are the meaning of life...

I didn't reinforce the recall with normal food. I taught it with all food. Then moved to only amazing food once he understood that the whistle meant there was going to be food.

I no longer attend group training with him. At group training he was initially frantic to try to sniff then hump other dogs, then once he has been told he's not allowed to, he is utterly unfocused and looks frustrated/stressed - panting heavily, whining. He will still work, but he won't take or even sniff the treats and ignored his toys so he works unrewarded. He will recall in group training but not finish nicely as he's generally too distracted.

Liver, at the time, was what came out top when I tried him with multiple treats to develop a hierarchy. Hes never been keen on fish.

You are probably right that I have never let him be hungry enough. As it is he is very lean. The very bottom end of good condition. I wasn't willing to let a growing pup fall into poor condition. He's around 3, falling towards a 2 when he was growing fast. His mother is similar, his father and brother are more solid.

A likely looking mare, to the stallion j rode, was ANY non stallion with a headcollar or bridle on. Because he'd learned that people brought him mares with headcollar or bridle on.

He has been allowed to play with other dogs. He also used to play fetch and hide and seek with me on walks. He still likes hide and seek but would far rather sniff than fetch.

Hi poodlenoodle.
I have read your previous posts with interest – always thought your poodle sounds lovely and have been interested in the assistance training you are doing with him. We have also been through some similar experiences with our dog. As a puppy he was friendly but quite submissive around other dogs. Then from a year old his confidence seemed to grow (and his solid recall decline). He is also a dog I can recall easily from distractions such as livestock, squirrels, cats etc. Yet when another dog approached he started to run towards them. Next came the humping. I have to say, this was not as frequent as you seem to be experiencing with your dog and was always directed towards neutered males (he has never shown any interest in any female dogs we have met that have been in heat – luckily!). There was never any aggression shown by my dog when he humped other dogs and I now believe that the behaviour was the result of over-excitement and adolescence. There was one dog where we walked that he was totally obsessed with. It was a nightmare when we met them as my dog would continuously lick and hump this dog and ignore any attempts at recall. I found that walking our dog started to become quite a stressful experience:  having to quickly put him back on the lead when ever we saw another dog approaching and having that sinking feeling if a saw any chocolate Labradors, as these seemed to be the breed he was most keen to hump! We then experienced a couple of nasty incidents where he was attacked while on the lead by other entire males.  Thankfully, he was never seriously hurt, but I found myself avoiding all unknown dogs.  In the end I began to think about having him castrated, but first looked into trying Suprelorin or Tardak. In the end we opted for the latter. After the injection, I decided that I would have to let him off lead and mix with unfamiliar dogs or I would never know what the effects of the Tardak were. It had been several months since he had been allowed to do this and I was rather amazed to see that he wasn’t really interested in other dogs – even chocolate Labs! A quick meet and greet when other dogs approach and off he went (and he didn’t run up to other dogs either). I don’t think I really put this change in behaviour down to the Tardak – the injection only lasts for about 6 weeks anyway. Instead, I just think he had grown up (he is now two and a half years old).  Interestingly, the Tardak had no effect on his obsession with that other dog – if anything I think he became worse! There is definitely an issue with this dog as he seems to attract unwanted attention from all the other dogs – even the females try to hump him. But in the last month my dog has even lost interest in humping this dog too! Good luck with the Suprelorin -  I will be interested to hear how it goes. I just want to let you know there is hope – he may well just grow out of this behaviour and then you can feel rather smug as he walks obediently past the dogs that he once used to hump! By the way, I would highly recommend the following books: ‘Total Recall’ by Pippa Mattinson and ‘Control Unleased’ by Leslie McDevitt.

Thanks Cal! I think I partly need to get over my self pity. Basically dogs that are less food motivated than most can be a pain in the bum to train and I have one! I feel resentful when I see dogs I know have never been in a training class in their lives and whose owners take an extremely hands off attitude come when called no bother and annoyed that I have tried so hard and still found myself here.

I already have total recall. Will put the other one on the Christmas list.

I do think maturity will make a huge difference to this, and hopefully suprelorin will help meantime. Currently we are at the dog run and they're having a great time breaking the ice on the boggy bits to get properly coated!

I totally understand, it must make training much harder and there is nothing wrong with a bit of self-pity when needed!  Having a Flatcoat we don’t have an issue with him being food motivated - hence why our kitchen has to look like Fort Knox! Speaking to quite a few dog owners where we walk, I think most have experienced similar problems over recall when their dogs were younger, but all have good recall now. Personally, from reading your previous posts I think you are doing a great job with the training!

Excuse me that this may sounds as though I am speaking out of turn; I do sometimes find it difficult to get the correct tone in writing!
It does sounds as though you have put so much fantastic effort into this dog, but it looks to me as though he is rude and disrespectful.
I train gundogs and ignoring the recall is cardinal sin number 1.
Dogs need to believe that you are the source of all things wonderful and want to come whizzing back, but they also need to understand that the recall is not optional. Ever.
I personally do not agree with shock collars (I know you said you were joking) except where there is a risk of loss of life eg if there was a chance that your dog could run across a road and kill a family in a car.
In the example you gave above, when your dog was in the run, you called it and it ignored you, what did you do? If there are no repercussions of ignoring you, then why would he bother coming?

With my currently available resources I stopped calling him. Because that is the only thing I can actually do. On the long line I jerked him sharply towards me - the reason I stopped using the long line is because he became good at recall on it. But it is difficult to use in an actual interaction because other people don't want to be wound up in yards of long line with theor dogs. So there is a limit to it's usefulness in training.

He has been disrespectful in other behaviours - he was barking at the window. I tried calling him down and treating him and after a few days he began barking at nothing in order to prompt a treat. So I switched tactics. Now if he barks he is told "off" once, quietly, and if he doesn't stop I throw a shoe at his head. He stops!

He's a poodle, very bright, and at adaptive learning.

What do you do if a distant gundog of refuses recall? A trainer i knew as a teen (owned the stallion) had a rule that if the dog came to him it got a treat, if he went to it it got smacked. If a young dog ignored his recall he went in and thrashed it. But he did have at least two who he had to give away as they simply evaded him as nauseum.

Hi Gundogs
I am interested to know what ‘repercussions for ignoring you’ you would use for your dogs and how you prevent these being negatively associated with recall?

All dogs are different and there is certainly not one method for training all dogs, or indeed that work for all people.
The training needs be tailored to the dog in front of you.

I'm sorry, I don't know how to quote from previous posts but;

"What do you do if a distant gundog of refuses recall?"
It would not be put in this situation. Young dogs are trained to have a reliable recall before they can ever physically bumble away from their person. Also at this age, pups generally want to be with the person more than anything. Importantly, as the pup gets older (and braver and faster) it is never given a recall if it is out of range (ie where you can get to it). If a recall was ignored, a young dog may be given a second chance in the first instance (making squeaky noises, doing cartwheels anything to get his attention). If it was ignoring when you know that it definately understands the recall whistle, then usually it does not take any more than stomping up to the dog making unhappy noises. Once you have his attention, you can then recall and be super pleased with him that he came. I would not ever advise smaking or thrashing any dog, throwing shoes at it or anything similar. The dog has to trust you and this behaviour makes not sense to him.

If an older dog ever did ignore the recall at a distance, it would be all the way back to basics.

I think the shoe must make sense to him actually because if I take my shoe off at any other time he doesn't even look at me but if I do it when he's barking then he immediately stops. I think he understands it is a repercussion of my displeasure.

Just had an interesting chat with someone I know who is having an autism dog through one of the official avenues. She says they told her the dog must be neutered because, aside from the unwanted bitching behaviours, as "parents helper" some decide they have the same status/decision making responsibilities as mum and dad and get ignorant.

Also if you never give a dog which is out of range a recall, how do you get them back? Or do you recall them whenever they get 20 feet away?

I also have gundogs and compete with them and I sort of agree with gundogs comment... Maybe I wouldn't phrase it as 'respect', but that attitude towards the problem (ie - I simply would never accept it and could not envisage it being an ongoing issue), I can totally relate to.

For me, a dog would simply never be off a long-line if they did not have 100% recall whilst on it.  Think of a recall as being like a brake in a car.  You would not get in a car without brakes.  So you should not let a dog off a long line unless you pretty much know the dog will always come back when called. 

If you sometimes put the line on and other times not, the dog learns the meaning of the long line:  That when it is on, they have to come back and can't reach the other dogs.  And when it is off, they can do what they want.  They only learn that because they have been given a chance to learn it by you sometimes putting it on and not at other times.

If I had a dog which did not recall away from other dogs, there's no way there would be a risk (or hardly ever) of my dog getting tangled up with others - because I would be keeping a distance from others, not letting the dog play with other dogs until in connection with me first (which may take some months to establish), and not putting them in that situation where they will fail.

The thing I find a bit frustrating, poodlenoodle, is you trying to say this:

"I've done everything - EVERYTHING - it is possible for anyone to do.  Nothing works at all.  Therefore it is somehow innately my dog, in some way.  And I can't do anything about it." 

I just don't buy it.  Because I know people I respect who've owned, gosh, upwards of 20 dogs of various breeds and - being good trainers - they have reliable recalls on all those dogs.  It's not a coincidence... It's down to training.  With all due respect, I DON'T think you've either 1) tried everything or 2) applied it in the way it should be applied to be successful...

His recall was rock solid on the long line. I waited until we'd had 4 months with no incidents of him ignoring me before I stopped using it (yes I used it EVERY TIME when I was using it). Last Thursday was the first incident since coming off the long line 2 months ago. That's why I feel I'm going around in circles. Each thing we try seems to work and seems to have cracked it and then I find myself back at square one. It is disheartening.

I appreciate that you don't believe me. I suspected it from your first short post because I've encountered it before. From the opposite end I am kind of sick of trainers telling me of course they can solve the problem and then telling me the very basic training techniques on how to teach a recall that I had learned before he was even in his mother's womb. And when I say, yes, thanks, this isn't new info to me they get annoyed and say well I might have done it but I obviously didn't do it right because results are the only proof. Unfortunately life isn't so straightforward. I'm happy for you and your 20 dogs but it is fairly meaningless. Perhaps he is a one in 21 type of dog?

If you want to see the dog in question working there is an Instagram account for the two of them. On there you can see my dog working for my almost nonverbal child and see that despite this issue I am not a completely hopeless case it's called fonziandroo

I am going to go against the grain here and say that there are some dogs in the world who simply cannot go off lead because their recall is not reliable in certain circumstances.  This may be temporary, or it may be permanent.  From your description of him around other dogs in the class, I'm also going to agree that the suprelorin may help.  Some dogs are so over-sexualised that they become utterly obsessed with others, very sniffy and licky and sometimes humpy, and castration helps.  Not always, but it might.

I am going to disagree about the feeding thing.  Some dogs are NOT food motivated outside, and it doesn't matter what is done re. meals, general diet etc.  I walk a springer and he does not give one sh1t about anything I have to offer outside.  Not one.  He will NEVER go off the lead, and after a year, his lead walking is still a work in progress because I have nothing to offer that will motivate him to do anything but sniff obsessively.  I believe castration would help him as he is the same with other dogs, but because he is super nervous as well and very overweight, I've told the owner to get the weight off him then think about what she wants to do because there is that risk that it could make the nervousness worse (which for him would be awful).

I also used to work with and sometimes walk a springador, and he never had and never will have a reliable recall.  His owner was not the right sort of person for him at all but I got the best response out of him that anyone ever did - he was far more reliable for me but he found other dogs simply too tempting and beating them up (his idea of play) far to enticing for me to ever get a reliable recall.  He also didn't care about consequence.

And as a last example; I knew someone with a doberman who was not food motivated AT ALL.  Ever.  Anywhere.  He would literally starve himself and had to be force-fed (and she did test that), and there was nothing wrong with him.  He just wasn't interested, and was hard to train.  And as soon as he was neutered, he got an appetite and became fully motivated like any other dog.

Remember as well PN that he is still young - some dogs take quite a while to mature and that maturity can make all the difference.

Thank you Nikita.

I don't really believe it is all my fault, and despite onetwothreefour thinking I'm saying "there's nothing I can do" on the contrary, i have done lots, and this is just the next thing I'm doing. I'm just a bit annoyed at the de ja vu feeling of it having not stuck yet again. Once the implant has kicked in it will be back on the long line and Michael Finnegan begin again for us (dog runs only until then to avoid any untoward incidents while he might be even more testosteroney). But it was great to hear of actual other dogs who have presented the same or similar issues to their trainers.

I really agree that youth and immaturity are playing a role. I also think his rudeness is teenaged ignorance too. Interestingly he has NEVER ignored my son but ignores my husband quite a lot. Pity my son cant call him on a field or blow the whistle well! Perhaps his sense of duty to the boy would bring him back where his sense of devotion to me does not!

I don't think he is a dog who will never have a solid recall. I think he is a dog who is slightly harder to teach a solid recall to and who doesn't therefore have one YET.

Glad you've said all this Nikita as I had a GR like this and feel that some dogs find a certain activity much more exciting then coming back to the owner.

I've not had too much trouble instilling a good recall in the dogs I've owned and particularly with goldens as they are generally keen to please and very food motivated, apart from this one.

Despite adoring her grub once outside then something else took over her mind. She lived to sniff and hunt rabbits in particular but any small furry would do. It didn't matter what treats I had nothing would bring her back except exhaustion. She spent most of her life on a long lead when out on walks, we would practice recalls often and I would try and hold her attention on me as much as possible, then I would let her off lead again. For a few days she would behave well, then something would catch her attention and she would be off hunting once more, it was an activity that was far more rewarding then any tasty treat I could come up with even if she had not been fed for 24 hours. I met someone once who had the same problem with her dog and we found that the dogs from the same breeder, so maybe a character quirk. Eventually she went stone deaf and it was totally unsafe to even consider letting her off the lead ever again unless in a totally safe environment as she was hopeless finding her way back and relied on hearing me calling and whistling to find us again.

The golden I have now is a normal think with her stomach type and if she knows I have fishy treats with me will remain glued to my side, but she doesn't go far from me on a walk anyway and recalls immediately. One thing I did teach this and the last dog was to get used to only being so far in front of me, so if she is drifting a little too far forward for my comfort then I call her to wait until I catch up to the comfort zone. She now checks in constantly to make sure I'm still there (and haven't gone and hidden to keep her on her toes) and to make sure she is still within the 'comfort zone'.

I think it is quite a common issue in GRs - one of my friends I met through training hers for the same issue, and I'm working with another now.  I've heard of it quite a lot too.  Interesting that you say about the breeding as that first dog comes from a litter who are all the same, apparently.  All thieving sods who love nothing better than to bog off on a walk!

And another example... another friend-through-training with a 15 month old lurcher.  That dog I doubt will ever be safe off lead, but we're still working on it.  It's prey drive for him, although he is a tad giddy with dogs - he comes round for playdates every week or two to teach him how to play a bit more sensibly, and to work on his focus with other dogs around him.  That bit is coming along nicely, and he wasn't very interested in the chickens last time (I forgot to shut them away, although they have a very sturdy run so they are safe from him), but animals out and about are a whole other thing.

PN - I think with your boy's responsiveness otherwise, he should come to have a decent recall in time.  Just not yet, as you say.  The teenage months for some dogs can be absolutely horrendous!  And some dogs can take a heck of a long time to achieve a good recall.

I always feel bad after I've criticised him. He just opened the bathroom door and lifted the loo lid for my son, while I was on here complaining about him (my husband was running a bath for my son but as my son directed the dog to help my husband was unaware he needed it until the dog barged in ahead of my son and nosed the lid up). I should add that my son is capable of opening doors and lifting loo seat lids, he just didn't want to put the sock he was clapping on or his tablet computer down!

I would never have thought GR's would not be massively food motivated! I realised when I was reeling over it that it's because I don't know much about GR's and as they look so like labs I'd assumed they had a similar Dyson approach to eating that most labs do.

Oh, they do, love there food, not had one that didn't, but this particular one wanted to go off hunting more then coming back to me for a treat. Most unusual.

Dogs wanting to go off hunting can most definitely be trained to have reliable recalls and I've worked with many dogs previously more interested in hunting than in food - and fixed them.  Gundogs are bred to have an interest in hunting - we need it.  But we need it to work for us, it's useless if they want to ignore us and hunt for themselves.

It takes more than most pet owners are prepared to do, sadly - which is why there are so many springers given up to rescues.  It involves gradually working through increasing levels of environmental distraction, it involves stopping 'walking the dog' (which caused the problem in the first place) and much more. 

Please, just because you yourselves haven't managed to train something, don't assume that therefore nobody could train it... and offer it up as 'proof'....

There are almost no limits to what it is possible to train a dog to do.  Science (learning theory) tells us that:

1.  If the motivation is sufficient and
2.  The dog understands what to do, to earn it, then:
3.  The behaviour will result.

Assuming the dog understands what is required from the recall phrase (which, even with generalisation and proofing, I'm thinking he does in this instance), then it's a motivation problem...

Just out of interest onetwothreefour did you change your account name last year? Your style is extremely familiar but your name is not...?

>Assuming the dog understands what is required from the recall phrase (which, even with generalisation and proofing, I'm thinking he does in this instance), then it's a motivation problem...

Good grief! Yes. Very very obviously. My entire thread has mentioned repeatedly that he is more motivated by other dogs than food!

The hope is that if the implant causes the motivation of other dogs to fall that the motivation of food will become sufficient motivation to set his recall.

I don't doubt that if the motivation were sufficient food would work without the implant, but I am not comfortable going to the place where motivation is sufficient for this particular dog. I have been to where I am comfortable and keeping a dog in a state of hunger so he is vomiting bile multiple times a day or going days without food or falling into poor condition, all so he can come when called amd keep his balls, is beyond it. So yes, as a mere pet owner I am not willing to do what it would take. Though the devil will be skating past your window on his way to work the day MY dog goes to a rescue.

Never trained any type of dog other than sheepdogs, however sheepdogs work channels the prey drive used by "hunting" dogs to do gain the result required.

Poodles are of course a"hunting"breed being water fowl retrievers originally in Germany, but your dog isn't hunting he's being a young(in my view)typical dog who had yet to learn what behaviours are acceptable to humans & other dogs.

I have a bitch bred from the best of working lines whose non working roll is to discipline uncouth young male dogs in a very unsubtle way. She's not "dominant"in anyway with other dogs, but simply does not allow any unwanted advances & uses her working strengths(strong eye & body language) as well as a canine version of a full silent snarl(that she reserves solely for this behaviour & never offers it at any other time)

Obviously your older young dog has probably never met a bitch like her at close quarters otherwise he would be more reluctant to approach other dogs uninvited. I wouldn't have expected him to have.

It's much easier to train a recall with purpose bred "hunting"dogs whose parents were selected for their ability to obey as well as other wanted features.

Poodles(especially Standards) seem to have a bred in streak of "who me" reaction to training & behaviours that surfaces from time to time especially when young. You cannot compare their training needs & wants to purpose bred "hunting" breeds.

I hope curbing his testosterone production works for you & that he means you can get his focus back on you in the presence of those oh so attractive other dogs. I'm just glad I have my canine"schoolmistress"to help me

Thanks Tommee.

We do know one bitch exactly as you describe! A beautiful brindled lurcher which is walked on the same disused golf course we walk on. The first few times we met her I got talking to her owner. He suggested we let them play together and i mentioned my boys tendencies and he said, "oh, no worries, she'll sort him out, just watch". We let them off and immediately he ran up to her she snarled and when he continued to come closer she chased him snapping and snarling, making a lot of noise but no actual contact. He ran, and bouncy as he is she could run faster. Once she'd chased him a few yards she stopped, he turned and looked at her with deeper respect and, still several yards away, bowed and scampered to invite a chase. The two of them played very happily for twenty minutes and though she growled a few more times when he got over boisterous, he never actually got to licking or trying to hump at all. Ever since he has been able to play with her and her daughter no problem and actually now I think of it, he is generally a bit more respectful with whippets and greyhounds than other kinds of dog (that is, he only gets to humping after playing for a while instead of almost immediately), but unfortunately he is too daft to have generalised the experience to all of dog kind.

I wish owners of such bitches ran finishing schools for twits like mine!

Hello
I had a very similar issue with my boy, he ran to every dog and would sniff intently every inch of the dog  and for ages. Eventually he would follow us though. He never wanted to play just sniff like crazy. Very young entire males he would want to attack instantly and old males or ones on a lead. 90% of the time he just sniffed dogs but would see them in the distance and just go. If no other dogs were around his recall was lovely. He is 4 1/2 and this had become more of a problem over the last 8 months (wanting to attack young males).

I came on here for advice and was advised it was all behavioural and it was suggested a behaviourist was needed, vet recommended the same to start with. I did this and paid £185 for 4 hrs, mainly talking about my dog and what he is like, a few training exercises shown using clicker and treat and then a walk in a park where there were lots of dogs so I could try the training. I was given about 3 sheets of A4 paper full of advice on training and food (most I knew already esp about food) then she sent a report basically just repeating what I had told her about my dog and what she had advised. There is free on going follow up if I want it but its phone or email, more one to one will be charged.
I found myself being bogged down by it all and all the training I needed to do, too much to take in one session, I did implement some of it such as the leave it command which worked brilliantly in the house and when no dogs around on walks but as soon as other dogs came into sight it was very hard.

So in the end I went with my gut of him being too full on with testosterone and had the 6 mth implant done of superlorin. 8 weeks on and things are so much better, he is more responsive on walks to us, won't go charging up to every dog he see's and if they are close he is happy just doing a quick sniff hello and then coming away when asked. It has made walks so much better and relaxed. He's had one time of meeting a friends entire 11mth old boy, big and bouncy and my dog did get a little puffed up and growled at him. We had him on a lead so we distracted him with food and after a short while when he became comfortable with other dog he was let off the lead and they just ran around together with no further problems.

It did take a good 6 weeks for the superlorin to kick in so be patient but I hope it works for you as it did for our dog. Not planning to show him again until next spring/summer so the shrinking testicles won't be an issue and having him being good out on walks is far more important than showing.