Rather than hijack the other thread about vaccinations, I thought I would start a new one.
Vaccines and other chemicals concern me and as such, I try to give as few as possible. I have a biology degree and have studied vaccine in a lot of detail. I used to vaccinate annually, but, following research, I have made an educated, risk based decision not to vaccinate after puppy jabs and their first year booster. They are then titre tested 3 yearly and vaccinated accordingly (so far not needed). They will not be travelling abroad and will never be kenneled. They are however in contact with a lot of other dogs.

This was all fine, and I was confortable with the decision I had made until recently. Last week, a dog from one of the shoots I work our dogs on, died. The vet diagnosed leptospirosis. The same vet also said that he had had a case the week before with a dog on another shoot I work my dogs on. This has obviously made me question my decision about vaccinating. As I'm sure you'll know, lepto cannot be titre tested for and the vaccine is unlikely to last for a year. I'd like to take this oportunity to use you guys as a sounding board, and I would appreciate your opinions/experiences.

My thoughts so far
- studies to date have indicated more fatalities from the lepto 4 vaccine, than from leptospirosis. This however is very vague as 1) leptosirosis is difficult to diagnose (see below) and cases could be significantly under recorded 2) deaths from the vaccine are difficult to diagnose and could be under recorded.  In addition, pro-vaccine studies and anti-vaccine studies are generally rather biased!
- as per the above, clinical diagnosis of leptospirosis is very difficult. As such, can I be sure that the 2 dogs at our vets actually had leptospirosis? I am going in for a chat with them next week but not sure how much info they can/will share (due to confidentiality). I am not concerned about my vets trying to get me to vaccinate just to line their pockets as they do generally take a very common sense approach and I do trust them.
- in addition to the above, if the dogs did indeed die from leptospirosis, was it one of the 4 strains covered by the vaccine?
- the last dog I had vaccinated was quite poorly for a couple of days following the vaccine. This could have been any of the vaccines, not just lepto 4 as he had the full set.
- on the shoots, the dogs are packed in together in the back of vehicles with many other dogs. There are rats on the shoots and the dogs will drink from ratty puddles (not allowed, but they will have a lick before they are stopped), will lick their feet etc. We also have rats around the farm at home at this time of year (just after the harverst) so the dogs are likely to be exposed to rats at home as well as at work.

I will not forgive myself if I decide not to vaccinate and the dogs become ill, but neither will I if I vaccinate and they become ill.
At the moment, I am swaying towards vaccinating them, but would appreciate your thoughts.

I don't think I am going to.be of any help.reallu but I think your post is extremely well.written and agrees with my own understanding and thinking. The only thing I don't agree with is titre testing every three years .reason being that you cannot know if there are memory cells which can't be tested for .a low or zero titre does not necessarily mean no immunity .so once immunity is proven I don't titre or vaccinate
As for lepto which I also.dont do ,I think in your situation it's a very hard one .in theory your dogs could be more at risk due to their activities but also.there are many unknown  factors both in the diagnosis and the exact cause or which strain . I really don't envy your choice particularly as you know the dogs will not be covered for.part of.the year anyway and would u vaccinate with lepto every year if u choose to do so . I still wonder how common it really is and given we don't yet use a human vaccine as it is considered too dangerous.alsp what about natural immunity ? Is it possible for a dog to gain natural immunity ? I think my feeling is not to even in you position.at best you would.be theoretically covered for only 6 to 9 months . although if u vaccinated at the right point maybe u could.choose.the right time to.cover for.the working months ? A bit of no scientific idea I know

I would be asking the vet which serovar(s) the affected dogs had contracted. Diagnosis of Lepto is not difficult & can be done by testing
blood

The "old":-
Serovar Icterohaemorrhagiae (Weil’s disease)-from rats
Serovar Canicola-from other dogs

The"new":-
Serovar Bratislava
Serovar Grippotyphosa

The first 2 are "allegedly"covered by the old Lepto 2 & all 4 "allegedly by Lepto 4.

This is what I mean about it being difficult to diagnose, so 1) I don't know if it was a clincal diagnosis due to the difficulty and 2) if they would be able to share the information.

Info RE diagnosis:
The most commonly used diagnostic test for leptospirosis in dogs is the demonstration of antibodies in the microscopic agglutination test (MAT). Serial dilutions of patient sera are thereby incubated with a selection of pathogenic Leptospira serovars, and agglutination of the organisms is assessed by darkfield microscopy. Cross-reactivity among serovars only allows for a serogroup-specific diagnosis, and positive titres following vaccination, previous exposure and during chronic asymptomatic infection complicate the interpretation of the results [2]. Generally, the serovar that gives the highest titre is regarded as the infecting serogroup or serovar, although this diagnosis is, at best, presumptive [9]. Post-vaccination titres have been assessed in small groups of dogs following vaccination with bivalent and tetravalent vaccines [10, 11, 12]. These studies revealed that titres usually decline by 4 months after vaccination, although persistently high titres have been documented which have been explained by natural exposure to Leptospira field serovars [10]. PCR can be used as an alternative diagnostic method to detect leptospiral DNA in biological samples such as blood, urine or tissue. However, leptospires can only transiently be detected in the blood and urine of infected animals [13], and antibiotic therapy is thought to clear bacteraemia and leptospiruria [14]. The detection of the agents in biological samples by bacterial culture is a definitive proof of infection [2], but leptospires are fastidious organisms requiring special culture media, and they grow very slowly after 2 to up to 24 weeks in culture, making this diagnostic procedure impractical in a clinical setting.(Source:Clinical, serological and echocardiographic examination of healthy field dogs before and after vaccination with a commercial tetravalent leptospirosis vaccine
Spiri et al.  BMC Veterinary ResearchBMC series, May 2017)

Gundogs...

The only direct experience I have of lepto, is a friend whose fully vaccinated (including lepto) dog contracted lepto.  He spent 3 days at the vets and was then totally fine.  This was before lepto 4 existed, so it would have been lepto 2 that he was vaccinated with.  His vaccination was given only 6 months before, so it had not worn off.

Frankly, I think the risks outweigh the benefits when it comes to the lepto vaccine.  Even human sewer workers are not given the lepto vaccine, despite working in rat infested waters - because the risks outweigh the benefits. 

Diagnosed, lepto is treatable with antibiotics - it's not a death sentence as distemper or parvo can be. 

I currently do similar to you - give puppy jabs and then 1st year booster.  I don't titre test after that, because of the existence of memory cells which can't be measured in titre tests.  I've previously allowed lepto to be given in those shots, rather than have a big debate with the vet about it - but I won't any longer.

Now debating with myself about lepto when my dog is in for her boosters.

The vet has been using lepto 2, I presume he is using up his supply or maybe he's not keen on the 4, must ask.
Have had no problems with lepto 2 with any of my dogs so wouldn't be adverse to keeping with that one, but have have become increasingly aware that it doesn't guarantee the dog picking up on a strain of lepto as has been said above.
If I decide not to go ahead with the lepto vaccine next time and given that we live next to a small holding and have seen rats in the garden on occasions, what are the symptoms that I should look for if the dog does develop lepto

You'll know because the dog will be very ill...

We had a rat nest in our garden last summer, embarrassingly whilst we had pups - I had tried all kinds of humane methods and traps and nothing worked and I didn't want to use poison with pups around.  It was in a flower bed about 5 metres from the back door.  All dogs were fine, pups too.  Rats are everywhere and they don't all carry lepto...

(Rat nest dealt with using poison once pups had gone.)

Symptoms are unfortunately very vague and similar to other illnesses; lethargy, inappetance, -possible vomiting etc with symptoms varying from very mild to fatal.

Facebook Reply:

Rowena Summers says:  Very interesting debate. I've not vaccinated my dog for the last 3 years(he's now 7).I've not titre tested, either, and don't think I'll bother. He's not worked, or shown, and not likely to go into kennels.

Firstly, may I offer my condolences for the loss of your beloved dog.  The pain of losing a much loved pet is horrendous as we all know.

With regard to vaccines, I do vaccinate annually although recent research results largely advise against it.  I do understand the reasons for the recommendation but my concience won't allow me to stop unless there is absolute proof that it is not needed.
 
I am a retired nurse (human) and quite frankly, I dont think dog and man are that different in many ways so I try to look at the bigger picture.  In human species, vaccine has almost completely wiped out diseases such as polio, diptheria and TB.  Then people decided not to vaccinate and sure enough, these diseases are creeping back in and I suspect will reach epedemic proportions in a few more years.

I believe that the same will happen to our beautiful pets eventually as more and more people listen to "New Evidence" saying that we are "over vaccinating".  But surely, better to over vaccinate than to UNDER vaccinate and condemn our dogs to the effects of these nasty diseases?

My concience won't allow me to take that risk and when push comes to shove, we all have to live by our own conciences and do what we feel is the best for our dogs.  I try not to judge anyone deciding against vaccinations because everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for me, vaccination is imperative to the welfare of my dogs xx

But humans are not vaccinated annually?? 

No one is saying 'never vaccinate at all' - but yes, too much vaccination HAS been proven to be damaging and there is sufficient research out there now to prove that, across all mammalian species.

Facebook Replies:

Margaret Anne Cameron says:  My four get vaccinated and never had any problem and lived to 13 year old don't believe in not vaccinated I'm shock what people don't do it and take them to dog shows

Debbie Millard says: This is such a dilema. I wish the writer had expanded. For example, was the dog who died older, or did it have an underlying but perhaps undetected health issue? Perhaps, vaccs should be puppy- complete set, then 3/4/5 yearly boosters? I think that this warrants a clinical study.

Keith Martin says: My problem with not vaccinating is my dogs insurance clearly states on the policy that they must have yearly vaccinations.

--- Julie Botterill says: It's only an issue if you wish to claim for treatment for things that would normally be vaccinated against.
In the distant past I had 2 dogs who I claimed for all the time and they weren't vaccinated and the insurance never even asked.

--- Eileen Mary says:  Lol I wouldn't bet on that.... Insurance companies are always looking for ways to weasel out of paying up!

---- Julie Botterill says:  Eileen Mary maybe they've changed - I never had an issue - I used Pet Plan, E and L and Sainsburys back then. I had a shepherd and a Lab both with bad hips, shepherd also had back back and epilepsy and theLab was the unluckiest dog ever!!! I claimed a lot! Thankfully I've had healthy dogs since then!

----- Eileen Mary says: Julie Botterill.... I admit my experience with Insurance has been more with Cars than pets BUT sometimes the ******* they give you to try and avoid paying out is phenomenal!

Facebook Replies:

Julie Botterill says:  Eileen Mary I'm going back 20 years- things may be different now

-- Eileen Mary says:  My daughter had a car accident last Summer - an accident even caught on CCTV and the struggle to get the Insurance to pay out was horrendous! Then they deducted money for paint scratches - yet said service history was irrelevant! Just one long argument. ....

What is the facebook page? Do you have a link?

Regarding "I wish the writer had expanded. For example, was the dog who died older, or did it have an underlying but perhaps undetected health issue?"
I do not have too much more information other than the above, but the dog was an 18 month old lab. Apparently perfectly health until this.

None of my dogs' vaccinations are "up to date" (according to vets!) and we have claimed thousands on one of them.  She has had surgery at Fitzpatrick's which cost about £5K plus £1500 for an MRI (or however much it is!).  Insured with Direct Line - never asked about vaccinations when claiming.

I would feel very negligent if I didn't offer my dogs the protection available through vaccination but my vet does the one in three system: ie the entire spectrum on year one and then a lesser vaccine on years 2 & 3. Lepto has to be given at least once a year to afford protection. My vet started using lepto 4 about a year ago. My lot have all had it with no ill effects and if I see a rat, I feel more confident that they are covered. I always wait 16 months or so between vacs and fortunately do not have a vet who argues with this.

Vaccination does not protect dogs from diseases if it did then vaccinated dogs would not develop the diseases which they do, the"theory"is that the dog will not develop the the disease to the same extent as an unvaccinated dog, however as diseases mutate(which they do)any "alleged"protection deminishes. There is a strain of Parvo in some areas that to date has only affected vaccinated dogs ! Food for thought

Horses for courses, I would feel very negligent if I gave my dogs vaccines as recommended by the vets and they subsequently became ill - negligent because I'd just followed vet advice and hadn't independently researched the issue.

Good post midnightvelvet and in the main I agree with you, but with humans, we vaccinate as babies and around 5 years old and not again whereas with dogs advice by your vet has been to vaccinate annually.

I give my dogs the puppy course and for the last 2 they've not even had the first booster.  I haven't done my oldies for years now and thankfully no problems...

My personal feelings are, do as much research as you can and make your decision regarding annual vaccines, as in many things in life, you could be doing the right thing for your dog or possibly not.  Everything is a lottery...

>What is the facebook page? Do you have a link?

https://www.facebook.com/champdogs

Same with mine .only puppy vaccines and have had to claim thousands with no problems

both have serious on going allergies we have to manage but  the insurance companies just wouldn't pay if mine contacted and need treatment for a disease that could be vaccinated against


I wouldn't vaccinate anyway as the data sheets say only for health dogs.mine arnt healthy due to the allergies

> But surely, better to over vaccinate than to UNDER vaccinate and condemn our dogs to the effects of these nasty diseases?<br /><br />My concience won't allow me to take that risk and when push comes to shove, we all have to live by our own conciences and do what we feel is the best for our dogs.  I try not to judge anyone deciding against vaccinations because everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for me, vaccination is imperative to the welfare of my dogs

This is where I come from, in a nutshell.   Again, having now switched to 3 yearly boostering (Lepto apart), I then don't booster after around 7 years.   And again, again, what about Boarding Kennels who usually want proof of utd boostering?   Realising that no everybody uses a BK.

I think we have discussed our differing views on this before mamabas. To me the risks of over vaccinating are far higher than the risks of under vaccinating particularly as it has been proven  that once immunity has been conferred there is no need to continue to vaccinate so all you are doing in my opinion is adding to the health risks from the vaccines. I already struggle daily with the allergies  mine have and there is high possibility this was from the original puppy vaccines that unfortunately did affect them

lepto if you choose to give it is different because it is proven not to last like the core vaccines. as always this will be a contentious subject that we wont all agree on . Like you I am happy with my choice. Fortunately I don't use boarding kennels so haven't had to look for ones that will accept titres and I wont take mine aboard as I don't want to give rabies vaccine

You cannot "boost" immunity.  If a dog is already immune and you give them another vaccination, you're achieving absolutely nothing, and you're adding all the risks inherent in any vaccine - adverse reactions of various kinds, immune system issues, cancers etc. 

Whatever you believe the adverse reactions to be, there is no denying that adverse vaccine reactions exist - and you are risking those every time you vaccinate, and risking it for no gain whatsoever if the dog is already immune.  (As the vast majority of dogs are - titre testing thousands of dogs tells us that.)

The majority of boarding kennels now accept titre testing instead of vaccination.

My boy had his annual booster last week. Last year vet pursuaded me to have the new vaccination which we did... Roll on 12 months &  Vet advised they had reverted back to the older style vaccination due to reactions after having the newer jab... We took her advice and opted for the older style vaccination.  I'm bemused how 12 months can change vets guidelines. We must have had a lot of negative reactions at our vets for them to stop advising to have the newer jab?

Hi Furriefriends we are looking to take our boy to France next year rather than leave in kennels.  Is there a reason why you're anti the rabies vaccination?  Is there any reactions against this jab I need to read up on and debate? I have found great pet friendly gites and we will in a few years have a 6 month rental as our retirement  treat.
Anyone had negative reactions re jabs for abroad?

I don't vaccinate after puppy and the rabies is one that has a higher risk of side effects to some others .I appreciate people have different views on that as well . Also mine have serious allergies so arnt really candidate s for vaccines I don't need to have  .my thinking is it's something I dont need to do and i prefer not to take them abroad for a number of reasons amyway I appreciate many people like to take their dogs abroad and of course if I did I would have the necessary vaccines etc .
If u are planning on  retirement abroad then in your shoes I would build up his health as much as possible although he is a healthy dog anyway and bite the bullet.there is risk in anything. I  think u have to risk assess for your situation and make a choice for u.its how I would do .I am lucky in that mine don't have to go to kennels anyway as I have family that would take them .yet another factor to consider

I got a pet passport this year, and the rabies jab, as we were going to Ireland. I had heard that customs rarely bother to look at pet passports but I decided to bite the bullet and get all the proper documents. It would just be our luck to get stopped on the way back into the UK and run into problems.
The dog was fine after the jab and there's has been no problems from that, however it was all a complete and utter waste of money as we were just waved through customs when we came back not even bothering to look at our passports let alone the dogs.
France though will be a different kettle of fish

When we brought our three dogs back to the UK after living in Italy for 4 years we came back through France and the tunnel.  All documents were checked at the France end of the tunnel but no checks at all back in the UK.  Non of the dogs had reactions to the rabies jabs either before we went or before we returned. There are some quite strict rules about worming before you return to the UK.

Forgot to say that at the French end they also scanned each dogs microchip to make sure it tallied with the number on the passport!!

While we are in the EU the Pet Travel checks for. UK entry are carried out in France,  to make sure ( in theory)  that non conforming animals don't land here.

Yes, I was going to say - very normal for checks to be done in France - no point having animals travel to the UK and then have to be turned around and sent back again by checking in the UK - better to check before they travel...

Thanks everyone. We have a new dog sitter recommended to us for any short trips or a week away. I'm less keen now re Kennels especially with his skin condition being linked to anxiety issues.  Heat he dislikes a lot and scratches more I feel when stuck in kennels. I've left him little more last year 2x4 days as emergency hospital and operation and hubby couldn't lose more time at work. Hated leaving him but circumstances forced hand.
Found it harder in uk cottages in winter breaks to take him in cafes/restaurant on wet days or attractions. Even if take crate cottages don't like a dog left for a quick meal in village pub... We tend now to do 4 day breaks with him in Autumn/Winter... Summer I alternate UK or abroad.

This lady comes to our house we interview each other then we go to her house and meet her one dog she has. She also puppy walks for people who walk. I like the sound of this.

France trip ill definitely go through proper channels and jabs. I've never checked his microchip or the vet checked. Guess this be a good time check it's working ...

Update.

After weeks more research which left me more undecided than ever, I have decided to vaccinate using L4.
There have now been 7 'cases' of lepto in our area.
Unfortunatley it seems impossible to get the accurate information about these cases such as
- were the dogs vaccinated (I know 2 of them were not, but do not know about the others)
- how was lepto diagnosed (vets said blood test, which leaves me a little sceptical)
- which strain of lept was is.

I feel now that the risk of the dogs getting lepto has increased significantly enough for me to decide to risk the lepto vaccine.

You do realise that vaccinated or not does not affect whether or not a dog contracts Lepto ? The vaccine does NOT(& I must emphasise NOT)prevent a dog contracting Lepto, it allegedly lessens the symptoms of the strain if it is one of the 2/4 the vaccine "covers". If it is one of the other 200+ strains the vaccine will have no effect at all.

It is worth the risk the vaccine causing a reaction in your dog ?? Entirely up to you if course

There is a blood test that can be done to diagnose Lepto in dogs

On occasion, vets where we have lived would send an alert if there was a significant Lepto outbreak in the area.   And that's all I'm saying on the subject of vaccination

If it lessens the symptoms ie they don't died like the other 7 healthy fit working dogs, then that would do for me.

"There is a blood test that can be done to diagnose Lepto in dogs"

PCR can be used as an alternative diagnostic method to detect leptospiral DNA in biological samples such as blood, urine or tissue. However, leptospires can only transiently be detected in the blood and urine of infected animals [13], and antibiotic therapy is thought to clear bacteraemia and leptospiruria [14]. The detection of the agents in biological samples by bacterial culture is a definitive proof of infection [2], but leptospires are fastidious organisms requiring special culture media, and they grow very slowly after 2 to up to 24 weeks in culture, making this diagnostic procedure impractical in a clinical setting.(Source:Clinical, serological and echocardiographic examination of healthy field dogs before and after vaccination with a commercial tetravalent leptospirosis vaccine. Spiri et al.  BMC Veterinary ResearchBMC series, May 2017)

Please note I wrote"allegedly"I know of cases of Lepto vaccinated dogs that have the full blown Lepto & died. If the Lepto vaccinations are so"allegedly"effective why is there no human version ???? Sewerage workers run the risk on a daily basis yet no human vaccination has been developed. No matter what precautions are taken to prevent them getting Lepto( haz chem suits etc)  Lepto is still contracted in rare cases(actual Lepto infections are rare in humans as well as animals) & as in animals easily treatable.

I don't trawl the internet for pro or con Lepto vacation information & TBH I'm not interested in reading stuff copied & pasted from articles. I know what my vets over the years have experienced & epidemic Lepto outbreaks are not there. Unless dogs that have been accurately diagnosed have all lived within close proximity & been infected by the same vermin any occurrence is purely coincidental. Even when there has been flooding on a wide scale, here in the UK Lepto is rarely increased. I asked my vet when he called(social visit)re Lepto & he couldn't remember when he had last treated one & had to look up his records & it was in 1996 & the animal was a recently(within 2 months)Lepto vaccinated cat that had previously lived abroad where Lepto is more common !!  Wasn't a Serovar covered by UK vaccines anyway

Although I am not one who vaccinates against lepto and mine arnt in the field I  am pleased u have made your choice and obviously have done loads of research which I believe it what it's about. I hope all.goes well for ur and your dog

To be honest I was still not 100% happy with my decision, but it is done now.
Having 7 dogs die in 2 weeks on a shoot we work our dogs on can't be ignored.
These are areas where dogs are not walked, and based on a guess of around 40 dogs working on that ground, that's a fairly high percentage.

I'm confused first you state 7 dogs from shoots & now 7 dogs from a shoot have died from Lepto is that 8 to 14 dogs then in total that have died from the same Serovar of Lepto ? Or appear to have died from Lepto. A very high number to all die from the same cause when most vets don't see that many in a year & most treated successfully for Lepto yet these dogs all died near you despite treatment I presume. How many were non vaccinated within the 12 months prior to death ? After all vets & manufacturers both allege only 12 monthly boosters are required

Sorry, I didn't think it was too important; technically it's two shoots in the same area.

I have said before that I do not have this information

"Unfortunatley it seems impossible to get the accurate information about these cases such as
- were the dogs vaccinated (I know 2 of them were not, but do not know about the others)
- how was lepto diagnosed (vets said blood test, which leaves me a little sceptical)
- which strain of lept was is."

On the plus side, at least I am comfortable that my vets are not using it as a money making opportunity. They are only charging £10 for a pre vaccination health check and the both vaccines.


On the plus side, at least I am comfortable that my vets are not using it as a money making opportunity. They are only charging £10 for a pre vaccination health check and the both vaccines.



At a cost of £3 or less per vaccination still a margin of profit for the vet & of course encouraging clients to repeat treat their dogs.

Each to their own in respect of what you do with your dogs. Just curious about the numbers & cause

I have noticed on other posts that you are rather argumentative so I will refrain from replying.