This article here http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/what-you-your-dog-attacked-347288 is about as useless as it could possibly be in giving the answer to this question. "Stay calm", "stay safe", "get all the details" and similar suggestions the article offers - yes of course, while your dog is being mauled by another dog in front of your eyes.

There is no law that protects dogs in such situations, the law only protects humans. As such there is no legal incentive for dog owners to ensure that dogs they let off the lead or allow to escape from their gardens are safe around other dogs. An many owners do precisely this, they don't care or are stupid enough to think "it'll be allright he's just a puppy".

So my question is what could we do to protect our own on-lead dogs in the case of an attack by an off-lead dog. I'm not talking about prevention, such as don't go to dog parks etc, these attacks could happen in the most remote of places. (And some posts on this forum actually suggest some people believe its OK to let their aggressive dogs off lead in such places because "nobody walks there"!) I'd like to discuss what to do once the attack actually occurred, and the offending dog is in the process of mauling shaking etc your dog, and every second counts.

Some suggestions I find searching the forums are to use airspray (eg pet corrector), water spray, firmly shout at the other dog. However if you have ever witnessed a real attack as opposed to a mere scuffle you'd know any of these the attacking dog won't even register. Mace, pepper sprays are illegal in the UK. As far as I can see hairsprays are not? (It is illegal to carry any item with intention to harm another person even in self-defence, but I can't find anything which says the same regarding intention to use the item on property in self-defence, and dogs are property.) But would hairspray be effective if sprayed right in the attacking dog's eyes, would it cause immediate pain/sting that would shock the dog sufficiently causing it to let go? If not, what would be more effective solution?

I will be honest, I do not care about the health of the attacking dog when it is the health and life of my dog that are being endangered. Geez I don't even care about my health such as being bitten.... I just want to end the attack and if there is a way that will end it one second earlier and kill the attacking dog, I would choose it over the way that will end it one second later leaving the attacking dog happy and healthy.

To me the situation is no different whether it is your small child being attacked by another dog, or your dog. Both are equally dear to you, both can be severely injured or killed in the process of the attack, and both can be psychologically traumatised for the rest of their lives. In eyes of the law children are people, and dogs' are property. But legally you are entitled to damage another person's property (the attacking dog) in order to defend your child as well as in order to protect your property (your dog).

So what would you do to protect your child/dog in such situation?

    
   

(Please do move this in Controversial if necessary)

> There is no law that protects dogs in such situations, the law only protects humans.

Not true.  The DDA can be used for dog-on-dog attacks, it just isn't for the most part.  But a dog can still be considered dangerously out of control if it attacks another animal rather than a human, and the owner can still be brought to task over it.

Councils also have the ability to apply what are essentially ASBOs for dog ownership - I'm not sure what they're being called currently as the names are about to change or have just changed.  My friend took some notes for me at a DogLaw seminar at the weekend (I should have been there in person but had a dog emergency here) and the gist of it is that councils have more power than the police using those things and ultimately can remove a dog if necessary.

As far as the attack side goes, it's hard to know what to do for the best.  The worst thing to do is try and grab anywhere near the head - that will get you bitten.  You can try wheelbarrowing the attacking dog backwards - grab the back legs, lift and walk - that may stop them but at the least, it'll make it a lot harder for them and may give your dog a chance to escape.

If the attacking dog has simply clamped on and won't let go, then by far the most effective thing is to choke them.  The msot effective way to do that in a fight situation is to get a lead round their neck, thread end through handle like a noose and tighten.  They WILL let go.  It may take a little while but it works.  And then you have them on lead and can pull them away.  Twisting the collar can work but not as well, it's harder to keep it tight enough and when the dog does let go, you've then got it by the collar and are in a risky position yourself again.

Sprays are generally not recommended - it's incredibly hard to hit the target with two fighting dogs as their movement is incredibly quick, particularly of the head, and you can easily get both dogs, rendering your own less able to defend itself or flee.

Fact is though in the panic of a serious attack, you do anything you can - the above two things may not work then and you just have to split the dogs as best you can, even if it means trying to knock out the attacker.  I wouldn't hesitate to use a lead as a whip into the attacker's face to get them off if need be.  I have managed to split a fighting pair of large dogs (akita attacked GSD) but in that instance, I was in a secure paddock and had large poles to hand so I was able to get between them with those then keep the GSD behind me, and the akita back with a pole while I backed the GSD towards the gate and safety.  If he'd been trying to go back at her, or if not in that situation where I had the immediate ability to separate the GSD, I'd have really been in trouble.

> And some posts on this forum actually suggest some people believe its OK to let their aggressive dogs off lead in such places because "nobody walks there"!

I do take my reactive dog to quiet farmers fields, because she NEEDS off lead exercise and she cannot cope with dogs or people.  Some people do walk there though, but I do not allow my dogs to approach strange dogs at any time and when she's present, we are nowhere near.  And I mean nowhere near - I only walk her in open areas where I can see people coming from a long way away and we do not go within around 600ft of any dog or person, preferably much further.  Not for anything she might do, I must add - but because other people tend to not have sufficient control over their dogs so to keep them safe and out of temptation of running over, I keep her far away.  Experience tells me that if anything is likely to happen, its because of them running up uninvited, not her.

>I will be honest, I do not care about the health of the attacking dog when it is the health and life of my dog that are being endangered.

Too right!  I would kill the offending dog if I had to.

Going back about 18 years, my lab-cross was in my garden, all of a sudden the neighbours dog jumped out of his garden into mine, grabbed my dog around the throat and would not let go, he kept moving trying to pull my dog to the ground and trying to shake him. My dog didn't fight back, he just stood still. If my dog had been a small dog, he would have been ragged to death.

The owner of the attacking dog was a drug dealer, the dog looked like a pitbull, the owner was not about and a friend of his (who had let the dog out of the house) was just stood like a useless drip. I was yelling for help and a little crowd of people had gathered the other side of my fence, but not 1 person came to help me.
I thought my dog was going to be killed, so I grabbed the attacking dog to pin it in place & restrain it (to also stop it's motion from tearing my dogs neck off) and punched it in the forehead as hard as I could, over and over again. It eventually loosened it's grip enough for me to pull it off and the man that had let the dog out quickly dragged it back indoors.
Oh my word, the air was blue from my mouth I was soooooo cross. Thankfully, my dog was just left with 4 puncture wounds, no tears or rips, so just a clean up and anti-biotics.

If your dog gets attacked, don't rely on anybody helping you, most people just freeze. If you are going to be physical to an attacking dog, you better mean business and be prepared for the dog to turn on you. Make sure you can restrain it before you hit it and hit it with all of your might, because a dog agitated enough to be attacking is not going to feel much pain.

Sadly, I've learnt form experience that you do not pull off an attacking dog unless you are sure it has no grip on the other dog. I had a different dog of mine, attack a friends dog, my dog clamped around its neck, several of us just pulled him off, my dogs grip was tight and it resulted in massive damage to my friends dog, who ended up in the vets for a week before they knew he would recover :( (ETA, this dog of mine was a mongrel, looked like lab x greyhound, lab height, so not a huge dog)

To be honest I'd do whatever it took to save my dog.

Restraint would be important to prevent the attacking dog going back in again and to reduce the amount to pulling and ragging. If it's got a good grip and won't let go you could use something as a break stick or if your worried you could even buy one and Carrie with u,  prices seem to vaire from £5 to £20+. It's used behind the dogs molars to leaver the jaws open. I'd guess it would require some skill if the dog tries to go for the person breaking them up.

> If it's got a good grip and won't let go you could use something as a break stick or if your worried you could even buy one and Carrie with u,  prices seem to vaire from �5 to �20+. It's used behind the dogs molars to leaver the jaws open. I'd guess it would require some skill if the dog tries to go for the person breaking them up.

Yes the stick is 100% reliable tool to make the dog to let go. In the old days of dog fighting this is what handlers used to break up the dogs. It actually operates not as a lever (no stick would be strong enough to prise a pitbull jaws, ok maybe one made of adamantium!) but to induce a gagging reflex. The handler would slide the stick towards the root of the dog's tongue and press there inducing an involuntary gag at which point the dog would loosen its grip.

It does require some skill/practice, the handler would hold the dog by the scruff of its neck and position himself behind the dog and over the dog's body, with handler's legs on each side of the dog slightly squeezing it in the loin region (i.e. locking the dog's hindquarters so that it can't turn or move much forward/backward). This position helps to ensure safety though it might not be easy or even possible to maintain it with very large breeds/crosses.

But the main disadvantage of the stick method is time - its use requires a gap present between the dog's top and bottom jaws which is not always there depending on what part of the body the dog's got a grip of. If it's a fold of the skin, or the dog crushed the tissues etc there will be no gap to navigate the stick through. So the handlers would sometimes have to wait holding both dogs steady until one/both re-adjusts its grip (which the dog would do in an attempt to grab more tissue/get a better grip, once it senses the opponent easing the struggle).

Otherwise it is a good method and almost any stick/small branch that's lying around can be used in an emergency, it just needs to be thin enough to slide between the jaws inside the dog's mouth and once there a light pressure at the back of the tongue is all that's needed to cause the gagging reflex.

This stresses me out.

We’ve been approached numerous times while I call to the owner to handle their dog. Firmly and asking them to recall.
Because my chi is reactive to strange dogs. So I have to warn them.
My Lhasa had her tail grabbed from behind and almost swung round by a mental lab cross a guy has here had I not grabbed it by it’s scruff and pinned it down I don’t know what would have happened to her. She is a timid little thing too and too old for it now.

Some people don’t care though.
I’ve had to resort to walking each of mine separately now so I can focus on the one in hand and keep them out of harms way.
We live near a field where we walk and people just leave their dogs to go on their own,

My Akita will be walked the same. But how would you deal with that? I can’t lift him out the way like I can with my small dogs and I know he will protect if he thinks I/we are in danger as it’s in their blood.
Don’t want to get the breed a bad name but sure as hell if one comes over barking and baring teeth they better have good vet insurance

I've had more hassle off small dogs, chihuahuas, shih tzus and Lhasas. Specifically their owners thinking it's funny because they're small, aggressive and prepared to tackle the four, on lead big dogs. Fortunately three don't take any notice, but my boy is now terribly scared of little yappy dogs (he's been attacked) and will react so I generally cross over and distract him until the dog has moved on. After nearly two years he's much much better but I have to be vigilant at all times.

Such a shame.
It’s never funny no matter the size of the dog.
Everyone who I know compares all small dogs to being yappy or nippy , that’s annoying as mine aren’t but I did put my two little ones in their place from the beginning.
Starting by not spoiling them and keeping the reminder that regardless of their size, they’re still dogs.
There is another specific small breed that I hate that near me there is two (wont name) but I was nipped after asking the owner if they were friendly and being told yes. Confirmed my stance with that one

If one knows that their dog is going to attack another dog or retaliate then walk somewhere away from other dogs or muzzle them.

> My Akita will be walked the same. But how would you deal with that? I can’t lift him out the way like I can with my small dogs and I know he will protect if he thinks I/we are in danger as it’s in their blood.

I'd be doing my best to avoid it in the first place.  If you know that field is a likely place for such an experience then as much as it's frustrating when it's on your doorstep, I would avoid walking there or at the very least, only walk at empty/very quiet times.  I have a field a minute's drive away that I don't use for a few reasons, including avoiding other dogs, and it is incredibly annoying but my dogs' safety comes first.  I have to trundle to the other side of town to take them somewhere more suitable.

I am in a similar position to nikita  and to avoid any potential problems I too drive 15 mins away to a secure fieled where we can all relax in safety .  Having experienced some issues in the past avoidance and safety are my primary concerns . I also owned a breed that can be protective and the last thing I wanted was to allow him to be in a position where he felt he needed to protect and at 45 kg I certainly couldn't pick him up

I'd have to agree re using a suitable place to exercise your dogs, away from potential attacks.    Once, walking past the dog's house in the small hamlet we lived in at the time, with half a dozen of our hounds, coming back from being out across the local fields, the resident white Boxer there literally crashed through the weak fencing and before either of us could react had grabbed one of our biggest males by the throat.  Thankfully before he managed to kill my hound (and his eyes had started to bulge), the dog's owner rushed out, having heard the commotion and got his dog off.   We all made it down the last few steps home where I checked my hound and didn't find any bad damage.   Clearly he, and I, was traumatised though.   It all happened so fast.    The owner had shouted 'if you report this, I'll kill you'.   Hum.  My husband phoned the police because the man was known to them and had uttered a threat.  They gave us an incident number.   We later had his wife on the doorstep full of apologies, asking if we and our hound were ok.   And saying she wanted to castrate her husband!!    Thankfully nothing more happened and I think the dog was probably destroyed as we never saw him again.  But it was a really nasty incident for sure. 

Just to add the police are taking note of dog on dog attacks these days - far more than used to be the case, so if your dog is attacked make sure you know who owns the attacking dog, if possible.

Just to add the police are taking note of dog on dog attacks these days

That cannot apply everywhere throughout UK, it might apply to some boroughs/townships & not others, I'm in a zero tolerance area but zero tolerance does not apply to all London areas even then in some *MET areas what are known as 'misdemeanour offences' are ignored on the basis the police are there for dealing with crime not misdemeanours.

*Excludes City of London police
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> Just to add the police are taking note of dog on dog attacks these days - far more than used to be the case, so if your dog is attacked make sure you know who owns the attacking dog, if possible.

Not sure to what extent this is true - just have a look at the constant flow of "petitions" from devastated owners calling for changes in the law that would protect their dogs from other dogs attacks.....

At the moment there is no such law - guide dogs and similar are protected by the Dangerous Dogs Act, but in order to bring justice to the "ordinary" dog their owner would need to prove either:

- that the attacking dog posed a risk to humans at the time of the attack, or
- that the attacking dog's owner intended their dog to injury the other dog, or was reckless about such injury.

In none of the above can be proved, the only thing the injured dog owner can do is sue the attacking dog owner privately for damages, which correspondingly demands significant expense and effort.

https://sites.google.com/site/fidointheuk/controlling-a-dog-in-public/reporting-a-dog-attack

It seems a lot would depend on how busy the police are otherwise!!   Not unsurprisingly really.   There is another article if you search, from the Nottinghamshire Police on the subject.

Given what the police arnt being  able to attend and deal with anymore dog on dog attacks could be very far down the list .unless the owner could claim to be in fear of being hurt themselves. It's possible.then that the police may be able to investigate or if a human were injured . Dog warden maybe interested and decided if to involve the police or a civil action maybe

> https://sites.google.com/site/fidointheuk/controlling-a-dog-in-public/reporting-a-dog-attack
>It seems a lot would depend on how busy the police are otherwise!!   Not unsurprisingly really.   There is another article if you search, from the Nottinghamshire Police on the subject.

The linked website gives incorrect advice. They say "the police may pursue your case under Section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 (DDA) and a court could judge that a dog is dangerously out of control if ... a dog injures another animal."

This is wrong because according to the Act, a dangerously out of control dog means "there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person or assistance dog". When the dog actually injures the person/assistance dog, the offence becomes aggravated.

As you can see none of this applies to "other animals", and neither it applies to "ordinary" dogs. Police can only enforce laws which exist.

> The DDA can be used for dog-on-dog attacks, it just isn't for the most part. But a dog can still be considered dangerously out of control if it attacks another animal rather than a human, and the owner can still be brought to task over it.

This is incorrect, see above.

Out of interest, I've just googled to ask what the Devon/Cornwall Police's attitude re dog on dog attacks ...

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/what-you-your-dog-attacked-347288

Also -
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/what-your-dog-attacked-another-344951

Yep, both articles say the following:

> If your dog is attacked by another dog then it usually becomes a police matter. ... The police are responsible for investigating attacks by dogs on people and serious dog on dog attacks under the Dangerous Dogs legislation.

Now if you look closer, the first article continues:

>  Under the law, if certain conditions are fulfilled, the person in charge of the dog may be summoned before a court...

And looking at the second article, all three examples it mentions involved an attack on a human.

This is the “condition”, what makes a dog-on-dog attack “serious”. The police are responsible to investigate dog-on-dog attacks because of the possibility that a in the course of such attack a human or an assistance dog may have been endangered/hurt. If this didn’t happen however, there is nothing they can do under the DDA.

Out of interest, I've just googled to ask what the Devon/Cornwall Police's attitude re dog on dog attacks ...
https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/what-you-your-dog-attacked-347288
Also -
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/what-your-dog-attacked-another-344951

I'm lost MamaBas...the links only lead to news reports by the two west country internet media sites which give an additional free plug to RSPCA on both sites
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Euro - sorry if the links don't work for you - they are working fine, for me, this am. 

they are working fine, for me, this am

Yes they worked properly for me, but, they just  took me to dog on dog attacks in west country, the links are to 2 west country media outlets which published the reports!...'Plymouth Herald' & 'West Country Live'.....those are the 2 links!

there is nothing they can do under the DDA

The DDA is not the only law covering all dogs, there some 19th century laws still active....... 'Having and Unmuzzled Ferocious Dog At large in a a Public Place'..... and..... 'Having a Dangerous Dog At large in a Public Place'..... the latter covers virtually anything you can think of, both 19th century acts which have never been repealed.
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I posted the 2 links as I needed to know how the police might look at such events down here, locally -  they do address what can/should happen re the police being involved in dog on dog attacks IN MY AREA.   Is all.  

dog attacks IN MY AREA

Oh, OK I understand that now.
There is another potential criminal charge I've thought of which is 'Criminal Damage' due to fact that in law a dog is
property, an owner can also ask the court for damages which the court might be able to take out of benefits if a defendant is on them.
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> The DDA is not the only law covering all dogs, there some 19th century laws still active....... 'Having and Unmuzzled Ferocious Dog At large in a a Public Place'..... and..... 'Having a Dangerous Dog At large in a Public Place'..... the latter covers virtually anything you can think of, both 19th century acts which have never been repealed.

>There is another potential criminal charge I've thought of which is 'Criminal Damage' due to fact that in law a dog is property

The only 19th century offence I could find is s28 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847, suffering to be at large any unmuzzled ferocious dog (if you let me know the name of the Act for the second offence you mention I'll look it up). S28 however doesn't criminalise dog on dog attacks unless the owner intentionally urges the dog to attack. Similarly the Criminal Damage act requires intention or recklessness on the part of the owner. That's why I said earlier that while guide dogs and similar are protected by the Dangerous Dogs Act, in order to bring justice to the "ordinary" dog their owner would need to show either:

- that the attacking dog posed a risk to humans at the time of the attack, or
- that the attacking dog's owner intended their dog to injury the other dog, or was reckless about such injuring.

suffering to be at large any unmuzzled ferocious dog

I think thats the wording of one of them but I also thought it said 'in a public place'

(if you let me know the name of the Act for the second offence you mention I'll look it up).

I think that one was similar to the first and read - 'Having (or allowing) a dangerous dog to be at large in a public place', words quite close to that..........are you looking up in Hansard?
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