Hi. I have a medium sized gundog bitch which was scanned at 4 weeks and 6 weeks, both times the vet said that she could definitely see 2 but hard to tell if there were more as they were moving about. My question is could she be hiding some high in her rib cage? Im quite sure i felt movement next to her heart ?? She doesn't look huge but ribs look extremely distended. I'm not sure you can upload pics here and if so how is it done? TIA

I think some scanners are better than others. A friend's bitch was recently scanned with one pup and had 7!

I think it is so unreliable as to be useless to scan to determine number of puppies.  Scanning to see if she is pregnant (at all) is fine, but counting pups is really so rough as to be not very useful.

As said, for the most part all a scan will usually show is a pregnancy, or not at the time of the scan - and even then not always

I think all you can go with is the fact she's pregnant - at the moment!

X-ray is far more reliable in terms of numbers, but I've never had that done (either) until past the due date.

I wouldn't x-ray due to radiation exposure.  They don't x-ray pregnant humans... :)

As said, I'd not, and never did, x-ray until AFTER the due date, if needed.   None of our puppies/mum has suffered as the result.

Can I ask a really silly question ? If your bitch is pregnant is it important to know how many ? If so why ?  Oris it  just curiosity ? Not aimed at the op but to anyone as I see this very often . As said we don't x-ray human mother's unless an emergency when pregnant due to possible risks so why for a dog if there are no problems ?

It's not a silly question at all.  If there were a perfect and safe method for determining how many puppies there are, it means that during whelping you would know for sure when the bitch had finished.  You would know if she was just taking a break and there are more to come.  And you would know if one is left in there and maybe a C-section is needed to get it out.  (Rather than pup dying in there and coming out later, dead.) 

I've spoken with many experienced breeders in the US who have previously used x-rays and saw a lot more cancer in those pups when older and adult, compared to before they were x-raying.  It might be anecdotal but it's strong enough evidence for me and I respect the source of the info. 

Personally, I don't scan or x-ray because I don't want to take my bitch to a vet's during pregnancy unless essential (due to disease risk) and also because of the stress for the bitch involved in both - stress has an impact on unborn puppies and stress hormones go through the pups as well as the mum - they all share the same blood supply.  If I had a mobile scanner near me who would come to my house to scan and who was reliable, I would totally use that service - but sadly I don't.

thank you  for your answer very full and informative. It makes perfect sense

> <br />Personally, I don't scan or x-ray because I don't want to take my bitch to a vet's during pregnancy unless essential (due to disease risk) and also because of the stress for the bitch involved in both - stress has an impact on unborn puppies and stress hormones go through the pups as well as the mum - they all share the same blood supply

I absolutely agree with this which is why I never bothered with scanning.    It's an interesting comment about cancer and those bitches who'd been scanned during pregnancy.   Made me think BUT I know there was cancer in a certain bloodline in my breed which had nothing to do with x-raying.  Anecdotal, yes.

I do scan but for the sole reason, that if she isn't pregnant, then we can move on and not pander to any diva moments. If she is, then I can reduce rough play, stop working and adjust feeding accordingly.

However, I never have them scanned at the vet - unnecessary Shaving, no idea what they are doing, getting the bitch to lay down etc can be traumatic and stressful for both her and myself.

I rely on a mobile scanner who not only refuses to come out before 30 days (she says it's a waste of my money and her time) because it can be so hit and miss but also gives an indication of numbers. She never says... You'll have 9 or hmmm only 3.she simply says, I can see this many so give or take two more or two less.

She's friendly and efficient. I have also had her do fertility tests on my late boy and cytology for my girls any time I plan a breeding. After years of misses and heartache - not a single miss :)

Sorry for the late reply. I hadn't noticed anyone had written back to me. Thanks for the replys, ive decided not to push for an xray as Were on day 59 and i feel like she is to big to be carrying 2 pups but to small to be carrying many more. Her belly has dropped a little and her ribs aren't as big as they were but belly is rock solid! She's eating 4 times a day still  (lab problems

You can't really look at the size of a bitch and predict how many she will have - many bitches look very sleek and then pop out 13.  Others look huge and have a below average sized litter.  It's not possible to tell.

You can purchase a Doppler if you want (look on Amazon) and some ultrasound gel or aloe vera gel, and using the Doppler, you can count puppy heartbeats and try to estimate that way.  Some people get really good at that and very accurate.

I agree that the size of a bitch is totally irrelevant when it comes to puppy numbers.  I've had huge bitches that were carrying a lot of water and only carrying 2 pups.  Others that have been really small, and the pups moving down from under the ribcage at the last minute.

Thats really good to hear! I always thought you would be able to tell by the size of they're bellys. Well still no signs of Labour as of yet. As long as she holds off till the morning I'll be quite happy

Can anyone help please. Penny is on day 64 and started panting yesterday about 1pm. Took her temp and it was 38 she started really panting last night about 9pm and has done so all night amd day. She tried scratching on my couch (which i stopped). I took her temp this morning and it was 37.3 and still is, is that a drop? Ive since removed bedding from the whelping box and replaced it with newspaper but no further scratching. So my question is... is she in the first stages of Labor? And if so how long should i leave her without further progress?

When you say she is on day 64, does that mean day 64 from ovulation or from mating?  If from mating, it doesn't really tell us much because there is a relatively wide window regarding when ovulation could have been (both before and after that date).  If it's day 64 from ovulation, you should go to the vet if you get to day 65 and there are still no puppies.  You will only know ovulation if you did progesterone testing or cytology.  Otherwise you can't use this guideline at all.

You want to see her first VISIBLE contractions within 36hrs of the first step in her temperature drop.  I use F so not sure what C equates to, but if this morning was the first noticeable drop, then you want to see her first visible contractions within 36hrs of whenever you took her temp this morning.  So - by tomorrow evening, you want to see contractions.

The first stage stage of labour can last quite a long time - 6-36 hours - rarely as long as 48hrs.  Common in this time are panting and digging, restlessness, vacant staring (pain).  A clear vaginal discharge is normal.  If discharge is green, black or bloody, call the vet:  Green means a placenta has detached from uterine wall and pup will need to be born within a few hours to survive.  Black means a pup is decomposing.  That puppy can affect the rest of the puppies.  Do not leave your dog, escort her outside to toilet and supervise what comes out the other end...

As soon as you see visible abdominal contractions, you are out of stage 1 and into stage 2 labour.

Thank you i phoned the emergency vet and asked but they weren't much use. 36hrs from temperature drop! Ok i can do that. Her temperature has dropped 1 C since 12am yesterday although she has been panting pacing for a couple of days now. As far as food is concerned she's not off and i doubt she ever will be (greedy lab). Fingers crossed she hasn't long left poor girl. She is 64 days from mating. Pups are moving around happily at the moment xx

With the temp drop...

From a week before whelping, take temperature 4x/day.  Use a GOOD digital thermometer, not a cheapo one.  Use KY jelly on it (or similar non-petroleum).  Insert at least half way up the instrument to get an accurate reading.  Normal temp is 100.5F to 102.5F.  Most bitches in their last few weeks have temps around 100F but fluctuations from 99.5F to 100.5F are normal.  Temps will often be higher in the AM and drop as day goes on.  BUT - it's the significant and sustained drop you are looking for:  A large temperature drop that persists at least 8hrs - this will be 24-36hrs prior to whelping.  So - 2 consecutive readings with temp 99F or lower.  Some will go as low as 97F.

You will need to convert those to F...

Any news or pups yet?!

Hi. Sorry not been on. We've been very busy! Penny went into labour sat night and had her first pup 3am second 530 am an unexpected 3rd at 10am. After the 3rd pup it took 2 hours for the placenta to come away. All great or so we thought... dog was viciously panting and we could feel a mass in her tummy, emergency vet time as her temp was 38.9. Stupid vet gave her an indernal and palpated her to which she to felt the lump and decided to xray. Xray showed a big poo! They put hot water in her bottom and she passed it �300 later. They told me if any sign of her shaking or jurking to go back as it could be a calcium deficiency. Today came back from work and dogs still panting acting crazy took a temp at 39.5. Vets again my own this time and not emergency! Bloods showed calcium levels were perfect another scan showed no pups and another temp reading was 38.9. Got antibiotics to treat mistitis. So here we are at home pups are huge and perfect dog seems more settled and panting less but temps back up to 39.2. Whats going on with my bitch???

Yet again - vets don't know much about reproduction.  It is normal after whelping to have temps between 100.5 to 102.9F  (38-39.3C).  So there is nothing wrong with her temperature to have caused you to put her on ABs, it is perfect for a whelping bitch.  Panting heavily is very normal during whelping.

Panting can go on for a week or two.  The uterus is contracting back down and causing painful spasms - and the dog's way of coping with this is to dig.  Digging or weird behaviours can also be a sign of eclampsia, which is why it's best to give calcium after each pup is whelped and maintain the calcium a few days afterwards.  

There are way too many posters on this forum sadly at the moment who rush to vets at the first sign of anything wrong (rather than posting here and consulting experienced breeders), then end up having loads of invasive and harmful things done - like x-rays or unnecessary ABs, which don't just affect the mother but the nursing puppies too. 

The vast majority of vets are NOT repro specialists.  They do NOT see many pregnant dogs, or whelping dogs.  They know how to do c-sections but don't have much nuanced understanding of lesser things that are possible.  They don't know much about supplementation to prevent or avoid issues - they are only used to treating them when they occur.

Sorry mitritus not mistitus. Scan showed alot of stuff still to come out. Shes still not got a discharge either

> mitritus

Metritis ?  http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/reproductive/c_multi_metritis

I'd be a tad concerned about A/Bs unless this is what's going on - keep an eye on the puppies if she's on A/Bs.   Did your vet consider giving her a shot of oxytocin to clear out any birthing material/dead puppies?   I'd not want to see an elevated temperature much as panting can happen when nursing.

It's normal there is a lot of stuff to come out and it should come out over the next few weeks - either leaking out of her in the whelping box or when she pees outside you'll see dark stuff and clotty stuff come out.

Simona I have seen a freinds bitch with Metritis and she was very ill with no interest in the pups and had a foul smelling discharge so quite different to your girl.
I have a 3 week old litter of 3 puppies too which is a very small litter for my breed. Unlike previous litters ( not from this bitch she is 1st time mum) I seen very little discharge and none on vetbed at all which makes a nice change. My girls usually have it leaking out when they are resting and leave big black marks on the grass when they toilet and can have this for easily 8 weeks although much less by then. So I guess they are all different and some especially in small litter have very little if any discharge. I am sure the more bigger the litter the heavier abd longer the discharge lasts.

The heavy panting in the first week is totally normal as stated by previous posts.

Three pups are great as they have playmates but its such an easy, managable litter and you will really enjoy them once you get by the first few weeks and start to relax

Thanks for you reply. My girl wasn't to interested in her litter for the first 24hrs to, but since commencing the A/Bs seems so much better still panting digging ect but not so depressed, temps back to 38 and really looking after her babies now. I was Searching the internet for a couple of days looking at average puppy weight for labrador newborns and the highest i see recorded is 16oz. Does anyone else know of larger? Im only asking because Monday vet weighed them and i have 2 which were 21.5 oz and one at 500g, thats 600grams for the bigger ones. Im wondering if that maybe had an impact on my poor bitch. I'm definitely enjoying this small litter much easier to keep an eye on mum xx

is it mastitis ? .I would have thought early on  but  I can only go by humans as I don't breed

FWIW, our Basset newborn puppies weighed in at at least 16 oz and most were 18 oz.   There's not that much difference, body-wise, between a Basset and a Lab other than leg length

I have had pups anywhere from 6 ounces to 1lb 4oz,  where the book of the bitch chart of breed statistics shows 10 - 12oz being the average.

Most of mine have ranged 9 - 14oz, but over last few years most seem to be 14-16oz.

I have found birthweight no indicator of adult size.

In fact my bamg on standard size champion bitch was one of my biggest pups at birth and during puppyhood.

Pups in smaller litters tend to be born heavier.

My 3 were pretty large for breed. I do grams and average birthweight is 500g give or take. Ive had one as small as 190 gram which is smaller than any ive ever heard of in my breed and he is above average size as an adult. Previously the heaviest I have had was 620g andbit wasnt a huge litter.
This litter the weights were 720, 710 and 690. At 3 weeks they are over 3.5 kilo but like others have said it doesnt mean anything when it comes to adult size prediction.
What I have found with this 3 is their development has been slower. I have put that down to the fact they are not fighting for a teat so get as much milk as they want and they are not constantly climbing over littermates and were slower to walk.

What breed are yours lleonder if you dont mind me asking?