Hi all.

I have 2 pups at the moment, a 10 month old and a 12 week old. It's the little 'un I'm looking for advice for.

A bit of contect:
Duggy is a 12 week old lab, he's a happy, confidant little hooligan but he gets a strop on when I leave the room. As the older dog is still very much a pup herself, we have stairgates at the kitchen and livingroom doors, the dogs are kept seperate most of them time, apart from strictly supervised, mini play session/training sessions (the 10 month old is incredibly rough in play, which the pup loves, but I worry about him sustaining an accidental injury).
The pup stays in the room I'm in, if I leave the room - even if other people are still in it, he will run to the stair gate and bark & bark & bark. This morning I was in the bathroom, pup was happily playing in my sons bedroom with his girl friend (18yr old), when pup realised I was not in the same room, he came and sat outside the bathroom door, crying for me.

If pup is completely flat out asleep, he'll may stirr but not mind me leaving the room, but if he's just having a 'cat nap' (lol), he'll wake and bark up a storm.

I had to leave him on his own when I whent shopping the other day, he was left in the kitchen and I set up a video camera. I left some things to keep him occupied (food in a dispensing ball etc.). I was out for 1 hr 10 mins, when I played the video back, he played with the toys I had left, then whined a tiny bit for a few minutes, then whent to sleep. The vidoe only ran for 1 hour, but once he went to sleep he stayed there, for the duration of the video - he seems to be able to settle if he thinks he is on his own, but not if he is seperated from me in the house.

He's quite a barky little thing anyway, he barks if he wants a treat, attention, to get to the other dog, barks at the cat, he's basically found his voice and is using it at every opportunity!
Some of this is age and will get better with time and as he learns some impulse control, some of it will be helped with training.

The thing I am at a loss with is the barking when I leave the room. I can stay looking at him the other side of the stairgate and he still keeps on barking.

I was thinking of standing by the gate (same side as him) and giving a him a treat when I open it (while he is quiet), progressing to when I step through it, then next step shutting it etc...BUt I don't want to inadvertantly teach him any more unwanted behaviours.

I do have a crate for him, but I do not want to train him to be left in that, the crate will be gone shortly, it was used more as a saftey thing to introduce him to the other dog (that has a high prey drive), he currently only uses it when he wants to chew on something in private (carrot he's stolen from other dog, my slipper )

Thanks in advance!

PS. I was a very active member of these boards, untill a few years ago. I've had some health problems and it's effectd my memory and congnitive funtion. I am better than I was, but even though I can now string typed sentances together again, they may not always make complete sense or be spelled right, so sorry in advance for this. I also can not, for the life of me, remember how I trained Buster (my last dog) to be happy to be seperated from me

WOW!!!
I've just been doing some 'stairgate training' with Duggy. He was laying in the kitchen, ready to go to sleep, so I stepped out over the gate and immediately stepped back in. I've repeatedly done this, sometimes opening the gate to walk through, for about 5 minutes. Duggy was watching me and eventually got out of his bed and laid by the gate to watch. So I stopped leaving the room (as he was not completely settled).

I've just left him in the kitchen on his own while I've gone to shut the back door and he sat SILENTLY behind the gate waiting for me. Granted, I was only about 10 seconds, but that is allready massive progress.
I know what I need to do now and will be working on this in little segments through out the day.

Still would be hugely gratefull of any tips or pointers as to what I am doing wrong or what I could do to help.

Hi Kerry

I remember you well.    It's really nice to see you around again.  I remember Buster too and the laughs I had when I heard of his antics. 

I am sorry to hear of your bad luck and really hope that things improve for you.  I can recall how you gave such great advice on training and how much it helped people.  I know that you will, step by step, get your youngster used to absences. 

You were an example of the training that puts CM to shame.  You trained a humungous dog who was stronger than you so I know that you will get there.  I wish you very good luck.

Jean   xx

I was going to suggest you did exactly what you have done, so good for you in doing it anyway and it looks like it's working.
He's obviously very attached you as pups often get more attached to one person when they are so young, mother substitute I assume. He will get better at you not being with him all the time, but I suspect you will have company every time you go to the loo as I did

As Jodi says it sounds like you are doing exactly the right things and that your approach is already working.  Hooray!

I think you just need to build up the time you leave him very gradually - even just a few seconds at a time.  Waiting until you know he is due for  a sleep should help.  Going back to him and praising him for being quiet is good - even if you have to wait for just a small gap in the barking before you return to him.

If you clicker train, clicking for quiet can work well too.

We find leaving ours with a  stuffed Kong brilliant, too - after all, the way to a Labrador's heart is definitely through his stomach and it's hard to bark when you have your chops busily working on a lump of rubber!

  Good luck.

Hi Jean,

Thank you so much for the kind words. I'm glad you are still on the forum, it's good to be back

Kerry xx

> I suspect you will have company every time you go to the loo as I did

Hmmm, Im begining to think that all puppies are toilet pervs   I've just got used to being able to go to the loo without Lexi being in there with me (she even jumped into the bath me with me!), now Duggy has to be in to bathroom too

Thanks Blay.

> If you clicker train, clicking for quiet can work well too.

I am actually trying clicker training. I'm not 100% confidant on it, but I'm using to great effect so far, but have only used it for obedience type things (sit, down, roll-over, stay, touch a target), I've not thought of using it for general behaviour type stuff. I know timing is vital, how would I click for quiet - do I wait for him to bark, then when he stops barking, click? (sorry if it's a stupid question, I'm not as on-the-ball as I used to be )

I knew labs were foodies, but WOW!!!! I underestimated their food drive massively! I'm very impressed with the nurse at our vets, it was her that gave me the idea of using the kong stuff & paste (I'm using Primula, squeezy cheese), to keep Dug entertained. Up untill then, I had been putting kibble in, which he gets out in seconds. The nurse used it to keep Dug occupied while she gave him his jab (he never flinched - too busy eating).

It's not a stupid question at all!  There are some good training tips on line which explain things a lot better than I can. 

The brilliant Kikopup has a video on clicking for quiet - easy to find if you Google it.

Also Pippa Mattinson's step by step guide on the labradorsite.com is very clear.  Look for the heading "Click for Quiet".  She does refer to cages for this exercise but it may still be of interest to you.  (I've tried putting in links to these without success - sorry, but you should be able to look them up quickly if you wish).

Yes, Kongs are great and having a greedy puppy makes training so much easier!

I put various fillings in mine and find that if I then freeze them they take ages for pup to eat.

In addition to the usual pastes, I use cooked mashed sweet potato, grated carrot, tinned pumpkin and sometimes I soak and mash a portion of kibble and freeze that in the Kong.

It's good to have a supply of Kongs in the freezer.  It does mean you have to buy quite a few Kongs but I think it is worth it to know you always have one or two ready to use.  They keep our little lad happy and occupied for a nice long time and they are VERY useful in an emergency such as if you have to leave pup alone unexpectedly.

Dug sounds lovely!

Thanks Blay.

I've found the link for the click for quiet - perfect! Easy to follow steps, broken down so even a clicker noob, like me, can follow The lab site has some other great training resources too, loads on there for me to read, thanks.

I've never frozen anything in a kong before, so your recipes are really helpful. I only have one kong and one similar thingy at the moment, will have to get some more.

I'd googled a few times for help with puppy barking when left, all the info I was coming across kept saying to leave the pup to bark and don't give it any attention. While I can see how that could, in part, work, it doesn't help if pup likes the sound of his own voice, as the barking itself then becomes the reward. I'm so glad I finally remembered this forum.

Thanks again for your help

You are very welcome.

Yes, Pippa M.'s Lab site is great.  I really like her approach and the way she writes her training advice is brilliantly clear.  Unfortunately, quite a lot of gundog training is still quite old fashioned so it's great to see  genuinely "force-free' methods being promoted - including clicker training for all things gundog being used very successfully.

(I have just remembered your posts about introducing dear Buster to your rescued rabbits - what a boy!)

I hope Dug enjoys his Kongs.  XX

> I do have a crate for him, but I do not want to train him to be left in that, the crate will be gone shortly, it was used more as a saftey thing to introduce him to the other dog (that has a high prey drive), he currently only uses it when he wants to chew on something in private (carrot he's stolen from other dog, my slipper )

Out of curiosity, those owners who have no crates in the house - what do you use instead to give your dog that "private" den-like place which dogs tend to enjoy as in the example above (they tend to enjoy it throughout their lives not only as puppies)? I'm thinking particularly multi-dog households.

I hadn't used a crate before until we got the dog we have now, it's not used anymore either and her bed is in the diner part of the kitchen/diner in a corner.
I had two dogs together prior to this one, one had her bed in more or less the same place as the dog has now and the other one slept in our bedroom at night, both of chose to do this, one liked to be alone, the other wanted to be near me. They also had beds in the living room which in our house is upstairs and tended to be used only in the evening. Basically the dogs chose where they wanted to be by lying down always in the same place, so a bed was put there.

In our house too we have a number of beds/mattresses for them to lounge, plus they are allowed on furniture of course They regularly spend time in their crates nonetheless. We have a garage which is part of the house and was converted to be the dogs' bedroom, that's where their crates are. It seems to me that the dogs realise that each "owns" their own crate (we have one cheeky sweetheart who on occasions would visit her housemates' crates in their absence and pee there - when she feels like it!) With other beds in the house, they use whichever is empty. Once one of the dogs hurt her tail and felt a bit sorry for herself returning from the vet, she waited for dinner with everyone else in the kitchen but immediately after eating she went to sleep in her crate while the others stayed with us in the sitting room. She could have gone to the other reception room and lie on the sofa or dog mattress that is there, if all she wanted was to be alone. But it appear that she wanted more, she wanted to be in her "den".

I don't know if there's been some research as to whether dogs need "dens", but in my experience it feels like they do, they do appear to appreciate crates as more special than ordinary beds.

I wonder if that varies with breed as well as some breeds are more aloof then others.
My GR wants to be with me as much as possible, preferably snuggled up on the sofa with me, but she gets too hot and has to get off much to her annoyance. She rarely goes anywhere away from me, if I'm not there, then hubby gets her company or she waits patiently in the hall. My first GR in particular was the same, she would be waiting on the driveway for me to drive in with the car, never tried to follow the car, always waited.

Nice to see you back ML, always thought of you as one very sensible dog person. Looks like you're on track again. Hope your health will continue to improve.

Out of curiosity, those owners who have no crates in the house - what do you use instead to give your dog that "private" den-like place which dogs tend to enjoy as in the example above (they tend to enjoy it throughout their lives not only as puppies)? I'm thinking particularly multi-dog households.

Can't see why any dog would need a den unless very nervous or a bitch with pups. I used to have cages down for my Papillons during the day but all they did was pee in them. After years moved them up onto tables so they have clean beds at night. I've never used cages for large dogs. All my dogs would rather sleep on the furniture or ideally on our laps -that includes the Malinois, they really are lapdogs despite their size. Windowsills are favourite spots for all of them as well (both breeds). Oh and coffee tables!!

> Can't see why any dog would need a den unless very nervous or a bitch with pups.

Due to the dog's inherent instincts. While its been a very long time since dogs became domesticated, research shows that in many respects dogs have retained the instincts and inclinations of their wild ancestors. One of those inclinations is appreciation of a den-like place to rest, recover and raise their young.

> I wonder if that varies with breed as well as some breeds are more aloof then others.

Its probably true, in some breeds the instincts could be stronger than in others I guess. It is also possible that if a dog doesn't have the crate/den in the house or is not used to it, it would seek the next best "safe" place to settle (which could well be next to its owner - this would probably explain why bitches sometimes want to give birth on their owners' bed!)

> Out of curiosity, those owners who have no crates in the house - what do you use instead to give your dog that "private" den-like place which dogs tend to enjoy as in the example above (they tend to enjoy it throughout their lives not only as puppies)? I'm thinking particularly multi-dog households.

I don't, to be honest.  My house is not that big so creating den space for 7 dogs is not doable here.  But there are various beds in various locations and if one of the dogs wants to be left alone they will move locations.  When they're on the sofa they tend to have a little zone around them anyway through a mutual understanding of who likes a bit of space and who's not bothered so that often acts as a quiet place for them.

Ren however does have a crate for when I go out, and she will go there if she wants quiet time, or sometimes out into the hallway (as we're in the lounge most of the time when I'm at home so the hallway is quiet).

Thanks Goldmali.