Now realistically I am a year away from dog three yet but anyone that knows me knows that i don't go into anything without adequate research and consideration.

I currently share my life with Logan, a lurcher and Maude, a Dobermann.
Whilst neither are worked and we don't do any dog sports or formal obedience, I hugely enjoy training and we're pretty active. I've been trying to find a local training club that is more than just puppy classes.
I work 30 hours a week across 6 days and my partner works around 30 hours but different shifts. It's pretty uncommon for the dogs to be alone for more than three hours at a time. A puppy can come to work with me.

I'm looking for a dog that will happily engage in training, will enjoy a good hour or two of walking and exercise a day (depending on what we're doing. If we've done a lot of training or something high impact like flirt pole, we usually do less). Very long walks on days off are far from unheard of. I like to be able to take my dogs with me anywhere they're welcome.
Evenings are dog time. We spend the evenings together either at home or once or twice a week at my local dog friendly pub. High energy is fine so long as I stand a chance of training in a decent off switch.

Here's the but....
I'm really keen to avoid another reactive dog. My dobermann is not good with strange dogs. She requires constant management. The work is paying off but I really don't want to have two reactive dogs and have taken precautions to avoid my lurcher picking up her habits.

I prefer my dogs on the larger size, no smaller than a border collie and don't dig rough coats or anything that requires a professional groomer on a regular basis.

Breeds I'm keen go look into further and hear first hand opinions of are:
Beaucerons
German shepherds (working)
Large munsterlanders
Picardys
Smooth faced pyrenean Shepherd
Belgian shepherds
Dutch shepherds
Tollers

I've very seriously looked into Australian shepherds and very nearly had a puppy 6 months ago after a long wait but the timing wasn't right and I had to pull out.
But I've got time so I may as well look into other breeds too.

If you have first hand experience of these breeds, please share your knowledge. If you have a breed suggestion, let me hear it.

Many thanks!

Kat

If your keen to not have a reactive dog I'd avoid the Belgians (my first much loved pedigree was a Groenendael).

Thanks brainless. I've not !et many dog neutral or friendly Belgians tbh so that comes as no surprise.

I was going to say that a Malinois sounds ideal for you (discounting the other 3 Belgians due to their coats) and although they certainly can be reactive, with proper socialisation and training  (more than for most breeds) and from suitable stable parents, there need never be a problem. I have 16. They mainly ignore other dogs as they are of no interest to them - their owner /s is their world. However, they copy older dogs they live with, so with already having a reactive dog that would be a big problem.

For non reactive I think the gundog breeds would be more likely to fit the bill. I have no personal experience of Munsterlanders but have owned Tollers for many years, they will take as much training or exercise you can give them but can also be couch potatoes when required. The only possible downside for you is that some Tollers can be much smaller than a border collie so you’d need to check lines carefully - although some are also much larger, there is huge variation.

Clearly at the end of the day, this decision has to be yours alone.   I would just say that my neighbour had 2 L.Munsterlanders and they were totally different - one came from a 'working' line and as soon as he was out of our small hamlet when walking (we'd 'sit' her lot when they went away), he was totally wired to watch for wild life.   On the other hand the other one could care less and was MUCH easier to live with.   In fact, very sadly the high prey drive one took off on her on a very hot day and was found, eventually, lying in a ditch.  He was sadly lost when he went into a state of permanent fitting - even after being taken to his vet.

Goldmali I had mostly discounted malinois as I worried they'd fail to thrive in a non working environment like mine. I've met a few pretty chilled out individuals as well as one of the typically described high intensity, over the top drive, batsh*t crazy individuals too. I would be concerned about Maude's bad habits being picked up though. She's miles better than she was but we still often walk her separately to avoid Logan picking up problems.

I did a stint as a groomer as maternity cover some years ago and have friends that are professional groomers thanks to that so I'm not anti taking a dog for a proper brush and blow out a few times a year. It's more dogs that require constant clipping like poodles that turn me off.

Munsterlanders float my boat but I've heard some concerning things about temperament which is off putting. Prey drive is something I've had to work hard to curb in my lurcher. They stop thinking sensibly when that drive kicks in and its terrifying. I feel awful for that Munster owner

Tollers are high on my list but I'd want to research pedigrees very thoroughly as we have a couple on the books at work that are very fearful and I can see the youngest becoming reactive. Obviously they aren't all going to be like this but it's something I have to think about.

With Munsterlanders you will need to research carefully over the temperament issue, but the breed club will be helpful over this as they are well aware of problems in some lines.
A friend has had them for years, her first a bitch was a bit iffy, but not too bad. The second, a dog, was very difficult and she spent a lot of time training and different activities such as scent classes to try and take his mind off other dogs and men, tbh he was not to be trusted with either and needed to be kept well away. She eventually rehomed him via the breed club to a family who had there own land where he spends his days in peace from the outside world.
She now has a young dog who she bought under advice from the breed club and he seems to be shaping up well although is a bit sharp and needs careful watching.

Have you not thought of a working golden?

I have a malinois and mine is a non-working environment and she is pretty relaxed in here, but does still require a ton of input.  Extremely easy to train, extremely intelligent, but I agree, I wouldn't put one with a reactive dog.  Not just the risk of learning it in a pup, but a huge issue I have here is that my mali finds my reactive collie hugely entertaining and gets very wound up by her - so if I do anything that sets the collie off, I usually have to manage the mali closely (e.g. leaving the house - mali in her cage first; DIY with power tools - both shut away).  A reactive mali like her is also very hard work so that's definitely something you want to avoid.

Dutch herders are very similar but considerably higher drive so I'd rule those out too.  I know a trainer/behaviourist with one who just last week told me emphatically not to get one because they are such hard work - difficult to get an off switch, constantly demanding things to do, have to be at the front of the queue for everything and so on.

From what I read of an online friend with tollers they would likely fit your needs well BUT only if you're comfortable with noise - they have a 'tollerscream' of excitement which is really quite something!   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0v2pjbgGK4

>>Tollers are high on my list but I'd want to research pedigrees very thoroughly as we have a couple on the books at work that are very fearful and I can see the youngest becoming reactive. Obviously they aren't all going to be like this but it's something I have to think about.

Fearfulness isn’t a typical trait in the breed, but we do have a number of ‘breeders’ who will breed from anything and everything as they know that they will be able to easily sell them due to rarity.

>>From what I read of an online friend with tollers they would likely fit your needs well BUT only if you're comfortable with noise - they have a 'tollerscream' of excitement which is really quite something!   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0v2pjbgGK4

That’s just part of their charm

It’s an excitement/frustration thing though - it comes out if you’re not throwing the ball fast enough etc. It’s just their way of communicating and thankfully isn’t constant!

If u are considering gundogs how about a flat coat ?  Trainable,  energetic but quite capable of dozing on the sofa.absoloutly love life and always smiling .size wise the dogs are quite abut bigger than the bitches but both she for your size requirements. Or as was said a working lines Goldie .

I can comment on two of the breeds on your list, as I have both Large Munsterlanders and NSDTRs.

The LMs are incredibly rewarding, but hard work. As a HPR breed they do it all, whether you want to work them or not, the natural instinct is never far away. They are the most loyal and loving dogs that you could wish to live with, but the early years can be hard work. I'm surprised that people have commented on temperament, the breed is often commented on by judges  as being such a lovely bred, milling around the ring together without any issues. 

The tollers are much calmer, but willing to take their turn in whatever you might want to do. They may be too small for you?

Both breeds haven't gone down the route of other gundog breeds, where there is a show/working split. Many of both will be out working for the season one day and in the show ring the next, this was a really important factor when we choose the breeds. As with all other breeds there will be different personalities in each litter, and a good breeder should be directing an owner to the most suitable puppy for them and their unique situation.

I would suggest that you contact the breed clubs for the breeds that you are interested in, ask for more details on the health and suitability for your own situation. It would probably be useful for you to go out and see these breeds on a normal walk, this is where the differences for the breeds would become more apparent.

Good luck.

Just to add flatcoats are dual.purpose as well they haven't gone down of the show) split either .often out working one day and a bath and groom and will be in the ring the next .

How about a smooth collie? I don't own one but have a friend who has two, and they seem pretty handy all round trainable dogs? Low maintenance on the grooming and the ones I've seen around don't seem reactive.

Working line golden! Generally predictable, stable, hardy dogs. Generally healthy. Happy to take as much as you want to give them one day and veg around the house the next.

There definitely are some very dodgy tempered LMs around unfortunately, but the good ones are very very good. Tollers generally well balanced, important to check out health with them.

I assume you're talking about the Picardy Spaniel. Not many in this country at the moment and the breed club people are doing some questionable things imo. I went to meet one with a view to having one but her temperament was poor. This doesn't speak for the breed as a whole. I've lived with reactive dogs for years so am in the same boat as you and this was a deal breaker for me.

Most Aussies I've met have been reactive (not all). Nice dos, great performance dogs if you get a nice one.

Belgians.... hit and miss. Some are a bit spooky, some are amazing, stable, smart dogs that I'm sure would fit your brief perfectly. Don't have much Mali experience, only met one lakinois who is a lovely and very talented working dog, know lots of nice groens but I think there's an epilepsy problem? I might be wrong but I know a few with it. So important to research. Tervs... met some really gorgeous tervs, bold, confident ones, but mostly not. Mostly aloof and nervy.

GSDs the same... get a good one and they're fab dogs, get a bad one and you'll be managing it for years.

My personal experience is with BCs, goldens and LMs, a good LM would suit, they are just harder to find than a good working golden.

Working line golden

Thanks very much guys!
As much as I like flat coats, the cancer risk is huge and I've seen and dealt with several that have died of cancer at under 7 years old. It's a big turn off for me.

Smooth collies are lovely dogs although the only two I've ever spent any time with were both reactive buggers haha!

As for goldens... this is going to sound awful but they just don't float my boat at all. I like them more than I like labs but they're really not a breed I've ever had much interest in tbh. Which is daft as on paper, they're a great fit.

If anyone knows of any good lines of LMs I'd be really interested to know.
I did contact the breed club about a year ago and was assured that temperament issues were rare which wasn't really what I wanted to know.... what I wanted was to know which lines consistently produced sound, stable dogs.

Tectona, my I ask for a bit more info regarding your concerns surrounding picardy spaniels?

Have you considered Italian Spinione or Bracco Italiano? Both large working breeds, and, from what I've researched and read from owners, are quite goofy with a great disposition and will take whatever you throw at them plus little grooming required.

Sorry about spelling - I HATE auto correct - I keep trying to correct but I think it's winning

I only met the one Picardy as I said but she wouldn't let my eldest LM anywhere near her lol. She was very nervous and snappy, but as I say, that's one individual. But she has been bred from. I don't really want to get into the breed club ethics publicly.

I've no idea if this is right or not, but a met a lady today walking a liver coloured flatcoat. She told me that the dog was nearly 11 years old and when I said that it was a good age for a flattie considering how prone they are to cancer, she told me that the liver coloured dogs seem less prone to cancer.
It there any truth in this?

Never heard that but might be worth contacting the fcr society and having a chat

I would think there is no truth to that at all.

['s more dogs that require constant clipping like poodles that turn me off./tt]

That’s a shame , because from the requirements you want out of a dog, my breed the Portuguese Water Dog, would fit your bill to a tee.
If you wanted to keep in a pet trim you would need to have them clipped about every six weeks, a longer natural coat needs weekly grooming.
But as a breed they will do and give you everything you want in a active dog, they thrive on work ( any kind)  if you have a 100% they will give you 110%.

If you like a challenge they will give you one as they can outsmart you in a blink of an eye, and frustrate the life out of you at the same time.  Lovely happy dogs that love their people and will  ( with a little encouragement ) give you their all.