When you're looking at finding a stud dog for your girl, how do you approach the owner? I know all of the breeders of my "rare" breed here in Oz (because there's so few of them), but I'm not sure how to ask if they have a male available at stud. Particularly as my girl has not been shown, and I don't ever intend to. I'm still not 100% decided if I will breed from her or not, but I want to know if there's a suitable male available if I decide to go ahead with qualifying as a breeder. (Because in Australia you have to qualify to be a registered breeder)

I'd be quite happy with a male that's also not been shown, or is unproven as a sire. I know I won't find anyone willing to breed a Grand Champion with my humble little girl (who will be 4yrs old at least by the time I get around to breeding from her), so as long as the stud is health-tested and has a good temperament...

Any advice on how you've approached stud dog owners would be very much appreciated :) I'm really not sure what to say!!

Do you have a breed club or something similar to Champdogs where studs and puppies are advertised?

Dogzonline lists a couple of studs - one is my girl's father and the other her grandfather So not really an option. There is another but he's not the colour I'm looking for, so I suppose he's a last resort...

> I'm still not 100% decided if I will breed from her or not, but I want to know if there's a suitable male available if I decide to go ahead...

> I'd be quite happy with a male that's also not been shown, or is unproven as a sire. I know I won't find anyone willing to breed a Grand Champion with my humble little girl ... so as long as the stud is health-tested and has a good temperament...

> I'm really not sure what to say!!

  
It sounds that you are not sure about the purpose of your breeding.

Once you do, you will know exactly which dog is most suitable for your bitch (plus second best perhaps, should the top choice not be available). Once you know this, you would be able to approach the owner and say "I would like to breed my girl to achieve xxxx and that is why I was hoping to use your dog."

You could speak to your girl's breeder to see if they could suggest a dog and perhaps put you in touch. If she is a good example of the breed the Champion you speak of could be an option .

> You could speak to your girl's breeder to see if they could suggest a dog and perhaps put you in touch.

No such luck Tried contacting them but they told me before I bought her they believe that once you've bought a puppy, it's yours & none of their business anymore.

> It sounds that you are not sure about the purpose of your breeding.

Thanks monkeyj, I will be sure to think about it a lot more :)

> Thanks monkeyj, I will be sure to think about it a lot more :)

This is usually a good idea when considering to introduce a bunch of puppies into the world.

What a shame. In my head any dog I have bred is "mine" and I offer any guidance I can.  You should do a bit of research into the optimum age for a first litter, in my breed I would say 2 or 3 years old and would not recommend a first litter at 4 or over.

It does seem a pity that her breeders have such a hands off attitude. This seems a bit unusual for breeders of a “rare breed” who I would normally expect to be very concerned about the future of their chosen rare breed.
Most ethical breeders would be very interested in whether a bitch they had bred was  then going on to be bred from herself.

As I gather that this isn't about what stud dog, but how to ask the breeder of your chosen stud dog?   Just call them and ask.  Say you'd love to use their dog and would they agree?   They'll probably ask to see her/her pedigree so they can see whether the breeding should 'nick' - something all stud dog owners should do.   I turned away more than I accepted, simply because if things do 'go wrong', it's ALWAYS said to be the fault of the stud dog - not the bitch    Much as of course it takes two to tango.    If two lines are put together for the first time, what might be the result will be an unknown and I'd imagine both of you would want to discuss what might happen.   And even if you have made your choice, it would help to talk to the breeder of your bitch who also has a vested interest in what happens within 'her' bloodline!

The owner of each is 50% responsible for their offspring, so don't be insulted if you are turned down.   Good breeders want to protect their lines, and their breed after all.

Add -  Looking at your further post .... "Tried contacting them but they told me before I bought her they believe that once you've bought a puppy, it's yours & none of their business anymore. "

That's not what I'd expect of a responsible breeder, of any breed.   And good breeders usually put endorsements on immature stock which would need to be lifted before any offspring could be registered.  Sad attitude on the part of her breeder.

>When you're looking at finding a stud dog for your girl, how do you approach the owner?

Well, it goes like this:  "I'd really like to know if you'd consider making X available at stud?  I have long admired him etc etc [insert reasons why you like this dog]."  Tis not difficult!!

>Particularly as my girl has not been shown, and I don't ever intend to.

Like someone else stated above, you need to think about WHY you are breeding.  There are reputable reasons to want to breed, and then there are just lots of breeders contributing to the surplus of puppies the world over.  A good breeder is breeding to better the breed (or at least, to maintain standards) - this may be physically or in terms of performance.  But if you are not assessing your bitch in any way (conformation or performance), and you are not experienced yourself in the breed to be able to have an objective perspective on her yourself, how do you know if breeding her is really bettering the breed?  I guess, if the breed is very numerically small or is endangered, then breeding whatever could be argued to be for the best of the breed - but if that's the case, then you really need to have read up on things like COI - because it's likely that, if there are not many dogs of the breed around, the risk of a COI being excessively high on a litter, is quite likely.  You also haven't mentioned doing any health-tests on your girl.... There is a lot more research and steps to go through before thinking about approaching stud dog owners, IMO.

>I'd be quite happy with a male that's also not been shown, or is unproven as a sire. I know I won't find anyone willing to breed a Grand Champion with my humble little girl

Why not?  All that's involved for a stud dog, is a quick jump on and humping and jump off.  Plenty of unqualified females in my breed are put to champions, and often produce nice litters if the breeding has been well thought out.  I've not heard of a stud dog owner turning a bitch away because she wasn't good enough for them... (assuming she's health tested and they seem compatible).  Assuming your bitch is fully health tested and the pedigrees compliment each other, with the COI not too high, I can't see why an outstanding stud dog owner won't let you use their dog.  You're paying the same as anyone else, and what's it to the stud dog...? 

Why combine everything I've said above for using an unqualified bitch, with the exact same points for a stud dog - it begs the question what you are breeding for, if you are considering breeding 2 totally unqualified dogs together...?

As for being unproven - if you are waiting until 4yo to try for a litter, you are only going to get one attempt.  So using an unproven stud dog is pretty risky really.  Using two first-timers together isn't recommended because neither are sure of what they're doing.  His sperm count may be low as there is no proof he has good swimmers.  It may work, but it also may not and you're not going to get a second chance next time round if she's 4yo.  If I were you, I'd use a very experienced stud...

>(who will be 4yrs old at least by the time I get around to breeding from her)

As others have said, 4yo is really the absolute max age you want a bitch to be for her first litter.  So you'd need to forget about the "at least" bit - you couldn't really do it much older.  And then you only get one chance.  Maybe two if she cycles frequently.

There are so many people to reply to, I figured it was easier to do one big reply - so here goes!

Age
Hazel turns three at Christmas. Breeder qualifying takes 6mths, so assuming I started training in October, I wouldn't be qualified until April. She comes into season twice a year, Jan/Feb & Jul/Aug, so would probably wait until the following Jan/Feb to breed, so she would have just turned four. I'm not sure how it works in the UK but in Oz registrations are accepted up to 8yrs old.

'Rare' breed
Someone mentioned if my breed is endangered then perhaps that is good enough reason to breed. In the past 5 years there have been between 7-24 registrations each year. Only a couple of other breeds in the Gundog group have less registrations. However, I don't believe I should breed from her just because of that.

Inbreeding
To combat inbreeding several dogs have been imported from overseas in recent years. I'm fortunate that my girl is out of an imported American stud, so a bit of fresh blood. However on the dam's side there is a lot of inbreeding. Hopefully in choosing a stud I find one who is not too closely related.

Breeder
Yes I agree, I don't like that my breeder pretty much left me to it. I would want to make sure I was available to offer advice & support to puppy buyers if I had a litter. I wouldn't buy from them again unless I had to. That said, they are very busy people with young children & they go around all the big shows, so I'm not surprised they haven't got back to me!

Endorsements
No endorsements on my dog. There aren't really any such things here.

Health testing
Thankfully my breed is a healthy one (compared to other gundogs like Labs or Cockers). I would have her hip- and elbow-scored before approaching any stud dog owners, and wouldn't go ahead with breeding unless she scored below the average. Stud dog would have to score below average too.

Assessment - conformation / performance
I'm not ashamed I haven't shown her. I'm really not impressed by the champions in her breed. I'd like to look into doing some gundog stuff with her though.

Hope that answers everything! Really appreciate all your advice.

>I'm not sure how it works in the UK but in Oz registrations are accepted up to 8yrs old.

It's not about the KC accepting registrations, Jessica - it's about the health of the bitch and not breeding her when it would endanger her life and that of her puppies'. 

Our KC will register puppies with a bitch up to 8yo, it is not about registrations.  However, responsible breeders will not breed from a bitch over the age of 4yo if it is her first litter - and responsible stud dog owners will not usually let their dogs be used on a first-time bitch over the age of 4yo.

If she's a gundog, could you do some competitions to assess her worth for breeding?

I've not heard of a stud dog owner turning a bitch away because she wasn't good enough for them... (assuming she's health tested and they seem compatible).

I have heard of it, many times, and done it. I wouldn't want my dogs to mate just any bitch. If the pups are rubbish in any way, the stud dog will get the blame. Plus I will have no control over who buys the pups and breeds from them, and can't imagine anything worse than my dogs ending up in the pedigrees of a lot of irresponsibly bred litters. Hence I will only accept bitches whose owners I already know, or are known to me/recommended to me. I would NEVER accept a pet bitch unless there was some specific reason for it -such as the breeder of the bitch needing something back from their lines. I've been there, done it, got the t-shirt, homed the rescues that resulted, and NEVER again will I allow a dog or bitch to be bred from that is just a pet. I now state that in my puppy contracts -I will not lift endorsements for a dog kept purely as a pet. I don't mind if it's shown or worked, but a pure pet to me is a big no. So I apply the same to my stud dogs. I get quite a lot of stud enquiries for one of my breeds (despite never having advertised them as available) and I always turn them down as it's invariably pet owners.

There are plenty of responsible stud dog owners who will not only look into you but also what time you have for the litter and whether the bitch is good enough plus also her pedigree and health results before making a decision and I know a few who do turn down a lot of people for various reasons.

> You should do a bit of research into the optimum age for a first litter, in my breed I would say 2 or 3 years old and would not recommend a first litter at 4 or over.

That was exactly my thoughts.  I know the OP's country will register a litter from an 8 year old bitch.  But I would expect it to be a bitch that had whelped while she was young.  4 years old for a first litter is too old for me.  (just from the worry of danger to my girl.)

> If she's a gundog, could you do some competitions to assess her worth for breeding?

Hopefully! I have to look into it a lot more though.

> I get quite a lot of stud enquiries for one of my breeds (despite never having advertised them as available) and I always turn them down as it's invariably pet owners.

I totally agree with all this post - only once did I let one of my males mate with what was essentially a 'pet' bitch and only then because she was bred much the same way as a dog we'd successfully used on his sister.   So I was reasonably sure (as much as anybody ever is really!) that the offspring would be good.  The bitch produced 10 super puppies.  However, rather annoyingly, one bitch was sold to somebody (unendorsed) who then used a stud dog from another kennel on her.  The owner of that stud dog took two males from that litter, one of which ended up being used a lot by her on her bitches - that rather meant she got my bloodlines 'through the backdoor'!   Thankfully the quality coming down from him was high but I'd still have preferred them to come to the source.   Stuff happens I'm afraid.

It can be hard to tell when a dog is entirely a "pet" and when not.  Just how many training classes or working events or shows do they need to enter, to no longer be considered a "pet"?  One?  One every month?  What if they only want to train and they don't want to compete, but they have reached a high standard in training and are in an advanced agility/obedience/etc class? 

It is not clear cut or obvious. 

COIs are rising simply because a lot of genes get lost in "pet only" homes and are not brought back into the wider gene pool.  If the only people who could breed dogs were those who worked or showed their dogs, we'd be in even more trouble with pedigree dogs than we are at the moment.  A huge reason for rising COIs is people just wanting to see red on pedigrees and excluding dogs with less red, and breeding only to champions. 

Of course, pet owners need to breed responsibly and to health test and must ensure they can home all puppies - and I know of lots of "pet" owners who have done just that, and have put their all into raising the pups - simply because they don't do it often and it is a big event for them.  Unlike "Assured Breeders" who churn pups out like puppy farms almost raised like livestock in outbuildings and with scarcely any human contact.  Give me a one-off well-bred "pet" litter over that, any time.

It is not so simple as "pet owners = bad" "people who compete = good".

> I get quite a lot of stud enquiries for one of my breeds (despite never having advertised them as available) and I always turn them down as it's invariably pet owners.

I too have turned down requests to use our stud dog, not so much because those requests came from pet owners, but that they came from owners who had little idea as to why they were breeding and why they wanted to use my dog.

To me it's not that pet owners are necessarily bad, but that it so happens that pet owners tend to be such clueless owners.

Unlike "Assured Breeders" who churn pups out like puppy farms almost raised like livestock in outbuildings and with scarcely any human contact. 

This is a bit of a sweeping generalisation isn't it? Two of mine were bred by a very conscientious 'pet' breeder, who is also an Assured Breeder. She has only ever had three litters, meticulously researched the stud dogs and beautifully raised the pups in the house with lots of contact and interaction. It seems a bit much to tar all assured breeders with the same brush.

>This is a bit of a sweeping generalisation isn't it?

I left out the word "the" - it should read:

>Unlike THE "Assured Breeders" who churn pups out like puppy farms almost raised like livestock in outbuildings and with scarcely any human contact. 

Obviously not all Assured Breeders do, but I know of quite a few unfortunately...

I think it's very plain and simple. A pet does not compete, or work for a living. Training classes tell you nothing as they can vary so much.

I don't think I know any dog which works for a living.

You must live very in the city then! Many dogs around here that work for a living, meaning that family would not have kept the dog had it not performed the function they need it to perform.

Well mine do until they retire as do many other sheepdog. Are you saying all the dogs you know are solely pets ?

> I don't think I know any dog which works for a living.

The only dogs that work for a living around me are cattle dogs. Horrible things - owned one once (a long time ago, before my introduction to spaniels & pedigree breeding). In the end we gave her to someone on a working station because she was too highly strung. She lived out the rest of her days having the run of their station. She was neutered, but even if she had not been neutered there was no way I would have bred from her. Her temperament was terrible, friendly one day and could bite you the next.

Cattle dogs (and many other breeds) were bred to work, but some have been fine-tuned over the years to adapt to not working. Show-type Cocker Spaniels, for instance, don't have much working instinct and are designed (these days) to be in the show ring or in the home, not out flushing game. So it depends on the individual breed and, of course, the individual dog. I think my Fieldie would excel at gundog trials, but my Cocker would probably run a mile

> Well mine do until they retire as do many other sheepdog

Must be lovely to have proper working dogs :)

I don't think I know any dog which works for a living.

Well I've met many and also bred some. Sheepdogs, assistance dogs, guide dogs, police and army dogs (with many different uses), security dogs, working gundogs, hearing dogs, seizure alert dogs, search and rescue dogs etc.  Their main function is not as a pet. They may be kept at time of retirement and then live as a pet, but they also may not, as they need to be replaced as the job will still need to be done.

So only those dogs or dogs which compete should ever be bred from?  God forbid, the gene pools would be impoverished and status of pedigree dogs would be a right mess.  Even more than it actually is.

Tommee, no, I know loads of dogs which would be very difficult to define as "pet" dogs or working dogs.

My dogs live inside, they have all the creature comforts of "pet" dogs.  The older few have competed in their younger days but I retired them once I thought they'd achieved what they could.  They have never been bred.  The younger one has never competed because we moved to a remote location, making it hard to reach competitions - but she has an outstanding pedigree which is almost entirely red, yet has a COI of only 8%, and perhaps 2-3 days a year we shoot over her.  She will run some tracking tests next year, but she hasn't run any yet.  She was put to a titled stud dog a year ago and produced an outstanding litter with a COI of 5.9%, several pups of this litter are now successfully competing in various dog sports around the UK.

Is she a "pet"?  Should that litter not have been bred?  She does not work for a living and she has not competed. 

My dogs do not work for a living, but on a shoot they will hold their own with others who do work for a living - and they are just as useful or valuable to the shoot.  In fact, they had such a reputation for steadiness that we were always asked to go into the pen to put out birds that were left there.  My dogs don't "need" to do this - it is not my job or career, to work on shoots, so they do not work for a living.

I can quote any number of other dogs with similar backgrounds, blurring the edges between competition dogs and "pets".  I know many people who have no interest in competing as they are not competitive, or they can't afford the travel and accommodation involved in competition - but they have progressed through their club's various obedience or agility classes and train alongside others who compete, are well respected by their peers, and take classes with trainers of a worldwide status, online.  They are motivated, they are interested in training their dogs to a high level in a sport - they just don't compete.

> So only those dogs or dogs which compete should ever be bred from?

Personally I don't think that this should be so. But other people do believe that the only legitimate aim of breeding is improving the breed. As showing/working trials are the way to present/compare/assess the conformation of the dog and its abilities, this is where the connection comes from.

I think JessicaB that you should look back to your own post of 03:01:17 " a good breeder's checklist" to help you decide why you feel you want to be breed a litter.