Some clarity would be appreciated regarding correctly placing Endorsements in relation to KC rules.

Should endorsements be 'verbally' brought to a prospective owners notice and the consequences of such an endorsement/s, and subsequent lifting or not, of those endorsements discussed with the puppy buyer fully before they sign the contract so there is no misunderstanding at a later date.

OR is it sufficient to just include it in the written contract with no notice brought to the puppy buyers attention and no explanation of what it means and just have them sign the contract without mentioning it.

Bearing in mind, that not all puppy buyers are experienced. It may well be that this is the very first puppy that they have bought, or indeed being KC registered.

Just trying to get some clarity of how it sits with the KC if the endorsement was challenged at a later date.

Bringing it to the new owners' attention verbally (as well as getting them to sign the contract) would be a good practice - this is not something that can be proved so the point here is just to make everything clear to the buyers.

However what I would do is "bold" the endorsement wording in the contract, I do this with all particularly important stuff such as insurance, return of the puppy etc. This too is a good practice but also makes it so much more difficult for the buyer to later complain that they "haven't noticed it".

I bought a puppy four years ago and the breeder told me about the endorsements when we first visited, then when I signed the contract the endorsements were pointed out to me. It was also mentioned in the vast amount of information given to us in an A4 folder

You are, according to KC Rules, obliged to tell the new owners that the puppy will carry endorsements.   If youi want to put it in a Sale Contract, that's up to you but they must be told one way or another.

For the KC to uphold an endorsement the buyer must sign a statement to say that they are aware of the endorsement.

When I sell a puppy I sit down with the buyer, each of us with a copy of the contract, and I read it out loud so I can clarity any points that they might not understand, including the endorsements and under what circumstances they'll be lifted (at no cost). Then we both sign both copies so there's no confusion.

Thanks for all the very helpful replies.

I am trying to clarify for an acquaintance at a ring craft club who has approached me to use one of my boys.

She has a really good bitch (novice first time owner) but it appears she signed a contract which was put in front of her after picking up the puppy and putting money down. She had been to the premises two times previously. The first time, putting down a third of the puppy cost (£500), the second to view the puppy. At no time was she shown a contract to consider and at no time was it made clear that the puppy was endorsed and would not be lifted for any reason.

The contract was not gone through with her at all. It is 3 pages long and the endorsement is not highlighted in any way and appears half way down the last page. Contract badly produced in poor quality print and tiny font. I must admit, had I, if a first time buyer, would not have understood it either. Would definitely have missed it's relevance in the excitement of picking puppy up.

I know of this breeder, although she is not, as far as I am aware showing any more. Anyway, that is not the issue.

I have advised that she speak to the KC but just wondered if they would consider lifting the endorsements. She has approached the breeder who has point blank refused to consider lifting it.

To my mind, once a buyer has put down such considerable amount as a non refundable deposit then a 'contract to sell' is in place and if the contract is either not shown at that time or endorsements explained, then the buyer has a right to expect the endorsement to be lifted.

We live in quite a remote location and have buyers travel a huge distance to pick up a puppy, so I do tell them by email about the endorsements about 3-4 weeks before they come to collect their puppy - when I tell them about other pick-up information too.  I don't take deposits.  This is before anyone has booked their travel to us and if they really hate the idea of any endorsements, they can pass on a puppy easily still.  Then they sign the contract when they pick the puppy up, which has a section on the endorsements.  I email them a copy of this beforehand, so again they have time to read it and know what they will be signing.

I don't tell them when the pups are really tiny (unless they ask), because I want them to learn about all the things we are doing with the litter and the sort of (good, I hope) breeders we are, so that they will by then hopefully have realised that the endorsements are just a continuation of our care for the puppies - not an overly controlling or vindictive thing.

The subject of endorsements is difficult:  The last time I bought a pup in, there was no mention of endorsements made by the breeder.  I wanted to ask her about it, just to check, but I didn't want her to think I was planning on breeding (before knowing what the pup would grow up like) or that I disapproved of her if she'd put them on, so I didn't ask.  I then made a HUGE trip to get the pup, including a flight, and I remember thinking right up to the last moment "please don't let there be endorsements which are unliftable, please please".  It was so stupid of me not to have asked, retrospectively, but I didn't want her to think I was the wrong sort of puppy buyer.  In the end, I was lucky and there were actually no endorsements.

> To my mind, once a buyer has put down such considerable amount as a non refundable deposit then a 'contract to sell' is in place and if the contract is either not shown at that time or endorsements explained, then the buyer has a right to expect the endorsement to be lifted.

Legally it doesn't work this way, the only way to successfully challenge "fine print" in a contract is to show that the terms are unfair.

What is the reason the breeder refuses to lift the endorsements? Quality of the dog, health tests, etc, KC might well be taking these into consideration.

Generally however I would expect KC to be extra careful in lifting endorsements against breeder's wishes. If they start doing this with any regularity breeders will stop registering pups (i.e. they would register those they keep for themselves, and those intended for pet homes will be sold unregistered.)

Unfortunately all too often I've heard of situations where the KC has lifted an endorsement (usually the not for breeding one) against the stated wishes of the breeder.   And not telling the prospective owner about endorsements, with a SIGNED statement to that effect, so the owner can't just go to the KC saying they 'didn't know/weren't told, is very unwise.

I fell foul of not putting endorsements on two puppies I sold to a fellow breeder.   As I've said here before, if only I'd at least put the not for export endorsement on them, they might not have been taken to Holland!   Misplaced trust and hindsight - a wonderful thing.  I guess the not for export endorsement only means an Export Pedigree wouldn't be issued by the KC however so just as the not for breeding endorsement only means any offspring can't be KC registered, the dogs could have gone abroad and bred from but not registered over there!!   Sadder and wiser but if the breeder was so minded for whatever reason, I'd have taken them back - but clearly she sold them for a significant amount of money!!

I thik the KC is q

I think the KC is quite explicit now on how a breeder is expected to ensure that a puppy buyer not only is aware of but understands the implications of endorsements in the contract. If the buyer has been effectively stuck with endorsements after completing health checks etc and  challenges the breeder's refusal to lift them the KC will make its decision based on a fair and reasonable outcome for the buyer. I can think of an example in our breed where the matter was referred to the KC, who lifted the endorsement so that the dog in question could be used at stud.

I have a 2 week old litter on the ground at the moment and have sent a copy of the sale contract to each prospective buyer to read, discuss and clarify any and all points before they come to view them. Once the buyer is happy to proceed we both sign the contract in two places, one of which is directly related to an affirmation that the buyer has read, understands and  agrees to accept the conditions under which I will lift the endorsements (e.g.on achieving satisfactory health test results). This time I will be getting a witness signature as well.

> If the buyer has been effectively stuck with endorsements after completing health checks etc and  challenges the breeder's refusal to lift them the KC will make its decision based on a fair and reasonable outcome for the buyer. I can think of an example in our breed where the matter was referred to the KC, who lifted the endorsement so that the dog in question could be used at stud.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. "If the buyer has been effectively stuck with endorsements" - what does it mean?

For example, on my puppies I place endorsements because I don't want them to be bred period. Regardless of health checks, show results and so on. Being stuck with endorsements is exactly what I want the buyer to have, and I make this clear to the buyer and obtain their signature as proof, satisfying KC requirements.

Are you saying that in such situation KC may lift the endorsements, that this happened to your friend? If so, on what grounds?

>Are you saying that in such situation KC may lift the endorsements, that this happened to your friend? If so, on what grounds?

Unless the existence of the endorsement/s, and their implications, were fully explained to the buyer, who signs to that effect, the KC will often lift the endorsements because they hadn't been properly applied by the breeder.

> The contract was not gone through with her at all. It is 3 pages long and the endorsement is not highlighted in any way and appears half way down the last page.

As the endorsement section is on the last page is that the page they signed their name too? If so they may be out of luck. I was told it its a part of your contract or in with it you needed the buyers to sign that page too so you can prove they knew about it. Mines in the papers but has its own section and space to sign before the sales contract.

So it its on a page they signed the breeder could argue the buyer had read it and signed it and they did tell them at the time, wether that's true or not is then a case of their words against the others, but the Signed paper backs up the breeders side.