So I've a female in heat. I've two stud dogs and I would be happy to have some puppies from both Dad's. 
If one mate her in morning and the other this evening then 1st one again in morning 24 hours after for him. Then 2nd one mates her tomorrow evening 24 hours after he did her yesterday evening.
So female be mated 4 times in 48 hours.  And keep going until she has quit standing.

Just wondering as I've not done this before. I know the male needs 24 hours between matings to have all his sperm count back.

But.. if female is standing and happy.. is there any harm at all in doing plenty matings?

Are you serious? 2 stud dogs and so many matings the poor bitch will be done in by too much sex? I have no words...first time in my life I have been literally speechless? Do you know anything about breeding or just doing it for the money?!

Good God... the poor bitch..
If you're using both males will you be dna testing each pup to confirm parentage too?

Good grief!  If I did that here where I live, I'd lose my registered kennel name and be expelled from the FCI!!!  Deliberately mating my female with TWO males?

It is accepted by the kc providing the pups are dna tested to confirm who the father is for each puppy. There is a former to complete. Not sure if you need their permission in advance as never considered it

It's a shame you don't have to pass an exam before throwing dogs together...you would surely fail! You don't deserve to own and breed dogs ffs!

Why would you even do it? Poor bitch!

Wouldn't do all those matings that's for sure.  One mating by each male would be sufficient for me but dna profiling is needed for both males and then each pup needs to be tested too. I'll try and find the link on thee kc website about it

Why not use just one male this time & then in a year/18 months use the other male...????

I know some who know this can be their last litter or the sire of 1 or both might not be around again next time. I'm sure there are various reasons but the kc will accept it but it can't be done with an online registration

Eta if the bitch is young enough and so are the sires then yes one litter now and use the other dog in 2yrs or so.

Before even thinking about mating have u done health tests for your breed? Both male and female also are they even suitable to mate with your bitch.It sound dmore like u are just looking to have puppies for money.do u realise how risky having a litter is for any bitch and the possible costs should she need vet help . I wouldn't  reconsidered do your research and consider if u should be breeding at all

> <br />Eta if the bitch is young enough and so are the sires then yes one litter now and use the other dog in 2yrs or so.

That's the situation I based my reply on

I'm not advocating this person to do this as they clearly don't know what they are doing and therefore unlikely to even consider paying out for dna tests for both sires and then the pups too.
I have laboklins dna test list here and for each parent to be dna profiled it's  £48 and then each puppy will need to be done at £72!!! So really only a breeder who knows what they are doing and doing it for a very good reason would do a duel sire mating.

Please don't do this. Have a litter from one sire this season, then have a litter from the other one in 18 months or two years time. It would be very unkind to the bitch to have her mated so often. Plus of course you then have all the expense of DNA testing mum, both dogs and all the puppies before you home them; it would be fraudulent not to.

I will make myself even more unpopular here than I am now, but all the same:  May I suggest that people who post comments on this forum - epecially about such an important subject as this one, which was posted originally by someone whose native language is obviously not English - READ what they have written before they send it?  There are sentences here which are completely unintelligible.  If you look back, you will find them.  In addition it would be well to consider whether all the cool abbreviations are suitable for a forum which is not local but, through the venue of the internet, totally international.

> It is accepted by the kc providing the pups are dna tested to confirm who the father is for each puppy

In fact in the USA it is actively encouraged.

It can be useful in some of the large breeds that have very large litters but mature late and age young.

It enables a bitch to make a bigger contribution to the gene pool in two litters say, byt having puppies from 4 sires, but only need to whelp twice.

It can also be useful if time is running out, and you want to sue an older stud, but are unsure if he will be fertile with your aging bitch, so use a younger stud also to maximise your chance of at least getting a litter.

In this case you would use the young male first at ovulation and then mate the bitch to the older male two days later just as the eggs become fertilizable.  Hopefully at least some of the older boys sperm will make it.

This isn't something done just by someone wanting puppies.

this is done when careful breed management is needed/wanted to preserve/maximise available bloodlines.

As ahs been said with having to DNA test all parents and each pup, it is only done when particular bloodline combinations are wanted rather than just a litter.

There is absolutely no reason to mate the bitch twice a day, alternate days for both dogs to mate her twice plenty enough, but only fi the DNA parentage testing is to be done, and with the expense you need a good reason to do it.

> And keep going until she has quit standing

Please send me your full details so that I can report you for cruelty.

To whom are you referring? I can't see any 'poor' language posts?

eta? pst, I have no idea what it means either.

Can't see any others.

Probably my poor typing for which I apologize again. unfortunately I can't edit . I  think the OP has got the gist by now

Brainless
ETA: Edited to Add
Can also be used as estimated time of arrival but not in this case

Ah, the only one I could think of was Estimated Time of Arrival which didn't fit.

Thank you all for your answers .. I'm sorry so many of you need to say.. well.. less than nice comments.

Mostly to "brainless" .. thank you, your answer has been the most helpful to me.

My vets general advice for mating is to mate every day for the 3 or 4 days of ovulation.. while she happily allows it, let him mate her. Letting nature prevail.

Specific to what prompted my question today:

Due to one of my males being older (but proven) and the other is a year old and not proven yet, he suggested using both this time to be sure of pups and when dna is done you know if the young male has fertilised any or not.

The price i was quoted for dna testing is 25 per pup and 25 for the mom and 25 for each of the two possible father's. So 75 plus 25 per puppy.

I had not thought to ask when discussing this all, was if I was to mate her with one male this morning and then with other tomorrow. Or with each male dog every 24 hours.

I didn't wanna call vets again if i didnt need to as they are busy.. so I thought I would ask on here and chat to other breeders.. But due to the many fault finding and critical responses I have got I'm discouraged from using this site.

Thanks to Brainless.. my question has been answered that it's day about it should be done with alternative stud dogs. Mating a female with two different males is not something I have done before..  thanks again for answering my question

Maybe I should have given more details in my original question so that some people would not treat me like they have done

Friends have recently done a dual mating litter in my breed. If you are intending to KC register your puppies it will cost you around £45 per dog/puppy. The DNA test offered by the KC is no longer accepted if using to prove parentage.

Brainless, thank you as always, for your informative post, this time about dual matings!  How very interesting!  I would not dare to even mention such a thing here in Switzerland, as the gods and goddesses in charge of the dog world would probably faint dead away at the very notion of mating a female to more than one male.  But it makes amazing sense, if done correctly, with permission and for the right reasons!

As has been said, in it's wisdom, the KC is now allowing registration of puppies from more than one sire in breeds with a small gene pool, to prevent the same bitch from having two litters rather than just the one.   BUT there must be DNA testing to determine which sire produced which puppy.  And whether permission is needed BEFORE this is done, I don't know.

Dare I ask whether this is relevant - are they all of the same breed, and KC registered in any case?

As for that poor bitch - much as people do seem to let their dogs 'go at it' until the bitch is out of 'standing heat', I always took two good matings and leave it at that!   I'd NEVER do what you allegedly intend to do, assuming you aren't trolling?

ps   Not that it's needed in my breed(s), I'd not welcome anybody with a bitch brought to one of my stud dogs, if I knew she'd been mated to another in the same season.   Regardless of KC thinking.

Add -  "The DNA test offered by the KC is no longer accepted if using to prove parentage. "    So how is it known which dog sired which puppy (registration?)

> Maybe I should have given more details in my original question so that some people would not treat me like they have done

Yes, you should have.  I know next to nothing about breeding but I, like everyone else, saw someone asking if it's ok to let both dogs have their way with her repeatedly for as long as possible.  That does not conjur up an image of a responsible breeder and if you'd explained the situation in more detail, with better wording, you might have gotten kinder responses.

>I, like everyone else, saw someone asking if it's ok to let both dogs have their way with her repeatedly for as long as possible.

I honestly don't see any other way that "If one mate her in morning and the other this evening then 1st one again in morning 24 hours after for him. Then 2nd one mates her tomorrow evening 24 hours after he did her yesterday evening.
So female be mated 4 times in 48 hours.  And keep going until she has quit standing. can possibly be interpreted. One dog is to be mating her every morning and the other dog is to be mating her every evening.

>he suggested using both this time to be sure of pups and when dna is done you know if the young male has fertilised any or not.

Why not just test a semen sample from the young dog to check his fertility?

> <br />Why not just test a semen sample from the young dog to check his fertility?

That being the case (what the vet advised), I'd be finding another vet.  Sorry.    But yes, of course - there should be no reason why a collection can't be done and his fertility checked.   And doesn't it depend on which dog is better suited (on paper - pedigree, and physically... dominant and recessive faults) to her?   Actually to have two males living under the same roof as the bitch, either of which would be likely to nick with her, would be very lucky, unless at least one was bought in specifically to mate with her?

I wanted to do a mating like this due to being abroad and one of the males being older... didn't happen as the older male did not manage to mate her. My breed has large litters so I was hoping for pups by both in one go. Older male had never had a litter so wanted to try preserve his genes also.

in this case I would just sperm test the males and use one of them. It will be cheaper ( you have the teaser bitch right there :-)) and both males are easily available for you. If older male sperm is OK,  maybe use him as he might not be around in few years time. If his sperm is not great, then I would consider using both in hope older males sperm will fertilise some eggs even if not at its prime anymore.

Progesterone test the girl so you got your timing right

From your user name your breed isn't on the"endangered"list so why the rush to breed from the 2 males ?

Interested in your wording, sounds like you have more than 1 breeding bitch & are into breeding in a biggish way, having more than one stud dog unrelated to your bitch directly as well.

Is your vet a reproduction specialist ? Most vets know diddly squat about ethical & responsible breeding programs

DO NOT over mate... u will do more damage than good and if dam (bitch) became pregnant then pups will more likely dissolve (miss carry) from trauma. NEVER use more than one stud, if u are worried which stud to use then u can get them both semen tested for accuracy. I take it your dogs aren't KC registered? You will only need to mate your bitch twice THATS IT, normally between days 10 to 14 as that's when they are most fertile, and that is with a 48hour gap between both mating. The sire (dog) will smell a fertile scent when dam (bitch) is ready, usually on day 10/11 of bleeding allow mating to happen, then completely separate for 48 hours and allow mating to happen again. If both dogs have not tied (turned back to back) then I would allow a 3rd mating 24 hours later, but never same day!!

> If both dogs have not tied (turned back to back)

Just one small point a dog doesn't have to turn once a tie has occurred

In answer to your question MamaBas to prove parentage now the dogs have to be DNA tested by an approved provider such as the AHT. With my friend's litter even though the 3 parents had been DNA registered through the KC test they all had to be retested by the AHT. And this pregnancy came about through AI, with both dogs sperm being collected and mixed together before the bitch was inseminated.

No, your right a dog doesn't have to turn to tie, but I was saying it in layman terms! Also if u have small dogs like my breed turning is safer to take pressure of there hips as a tie can last upto 20 mins to release, most dogs naturally try to tie and sumtimes need help to lift there back leg over, however breeding is not about just mating till the bitch can't stand it no more!! I would suggest that the person who wrote the message in the first place severely think long and hard and do there homework because the whelping and raising of the litter is a whole new board game. Also the term "served" isn't used. Breeding is a long hard dedicated slog and shld be really thought about incase anything goes wrong.

Thanks everyone for info and discussions. She has been tied twice 36 hours between and that will be all :)

> Also the term "served" isn't used.

It certainly is, in many books, possibly a little archaic, but a term often used by an older generation.

> It certainly is, in many books, possibly a little archaic, but a term often used by an older generation.

- on behalf of the 'older generation'!

Mares are always said to have been "Covered" or "Served" Its a term I am very familiar with too.

To be a little pedantic, if she were living in the wild the male would mate as often as she would allow him too throughout the fertile period, I do not think it is going to harm a willing bitch to be mated multiple times. Its our human morals not canine ones that make it seem a little cruel. In most cases we travel a long way for a mating so its not practical but those who do have dog and bitch together tend to allow more matings. Only if you are forcing a bitch to mate would I consider it to be an unhealthy practice. And that's true for even just once ! All my girls have pretty much thrown themselves at the male !

Yes but we aren't talking about 'in the wild' where for some bitches their lives can be quite hard and often end in death.    And in the wild, bitches tend not to come into season as often as the domestic dog does.   I still believe in just taking two good matings rather than leave the pair to go at it until the bitch has had enough (and in any case some experienced males won't do a mating over and over, seeming to know if they've done the job - scent?)

> in the wild, bitches tend not to come into season as often as the domestic dog does

in the wild a bitch would be mated over a week as often as she and her mate wanted once a year.

In most cases our bitches even though they come in season more often are only mated once a year at most, more often less frequently, for a couple of litters.

Without resorting to progesterone testing the only way to truly know that a bitch has gone over is for her to tell you.

Often bitches miss when mated too early to an inexperienced, older stud with fertility waning, or as in my breed a dog who may not have had a bitch for a year or several years.  The best chances of success are to mate the bitch until she stops standing, and the main advantage to boarding the pair at the same address.

No I do realize that we are not in the wild MamaBas and I am not suggesting she does so, but it would not be detrimental to a fit healthy and most importantly...willing bitch if she did mate every day for the duration of her fertile and standing period. It is the human angle we put on things that makes some recoil in horror at the thought.

I think breeders in some breeds may be more prim than in others, especially in breeds that require more hands on.

In natural breeds like my own where a mating can sometimes be accomplished in seconds (though at other times you do get a pair faffing about). Then the idea of a repeat performance is not a big deal, and we have often ahd to be careful that the keen male and bitch don't decide to mate again straight away.

I have had males to stay to mate with my own of friends bitches where both owners had other males at home so not trysting facilities.

I have generally kept the happy couple together with my other bitches.  The male may test the waters, but if the bitch isn't ready he settles down for his holiday and socialises with the girls, keeping a beady eye on his lady love who may well be teasing him.

I don't separate them at all unless I am going out and crate the dog or bitch at night. 

Usually in the morning everyone goes out to pee and on return Mr Studly gets on with his job and settles down, by the side of the bitch, usually until the next day. 

I have found when boarded like this the pair are relaxed, and the stud isn't gung ho, as he can take his time, and no-one is whisking his bitch away.  I will ring the stud owner when I think the pair are going off the boil and arrange to have him/them collected, but sometimes they have stayed longer, and go back to just being companionable.

> especially in breeds that require more hands on.

> (though at other times you do get a pair faffing about).

Never a truer word in my breed.  Okay, because of size it is no big deal for a bitch to stay with me.  And many people don't want to supervise their own bitch because they know about "faffing" in the breed and they would prefer not to have all that hassle.  When I think about how little I charge for a stud fee, and how many hours I've spent piddling about, I must be mad. 

You can't leave this breed to "get on with it" as maiden bitches often turn a somersault once tied.  I can't afford them damaging my boy.  But it's the screamers that I can't stand.  I can't wait for the tie to end when I get a screamer.

Oh supervision is essential,  my Inks is was one to turn turtle,  so a strong handler needed for her.

Know that feeling. My recently mated girl was fine the 1st time but during the 2nd meeting decided that all 4 paws needed to be in the air. Thankfully I ALWAYS ask for a chair and sit with the bitch's head over my knee with my arm over her head and the other hand steadying her chest after they've had a play and flirt and know she is willing to allow the stud to try mounting.

This girl spent a full 3 minutes practically in my arms and then tried to flip over on her side! This is where a knowledgeable stud dog owner is vital in my opinion.