I have just been assisting at a whelping today and the first puppy was born "dead" , blue tongue, no attempt to breath and no muscle tone,  half an hour of working on her and she is breathing and suckling normally, I was talking to the bitch's owner and she brought up the thought of how many puppies might be seen as dead and resusitation stopped too early.  I have had still births and puppies slow to start before and obviously there are times when nothing can be done but don't give up until all hope is gone.

One of my dogs siblings was born not breathing and the breeder spent about the same time as you trying to resuscitate her and he was also successful. She was noticeably smaller then the rest, but didn't let her size stop her at all. They decided to keep her, no other reason then that she was rather special because they were almost at the point of giving up when she started breathing. She's absolutely fine, a little smaller then average, she has been shown and has done ok

It took a very long time to resuscitate a red and white boxer bitch pup of mine in a large litter. Well over 30 minutes BUT she had a heart beat (I use a stethoscope all through whelping.)
Even after she gasped I had to keep forcing her to breathe and returned to get her going several times.
I kept her, totally normal sized, health tested normal throughout her life, Whelped 2 litters normally and lived to a grand old age.

I have worked on stillborns for quite some time, never timed it though, (we nicknamed one Lazarus) but I wonder what about brain damage due to lack of oxygen.

I wondered that too at the time but she was a smart girl, smarter than her mother. Never saw any after effects.

One in my previous litter was stillborn and I worked on him for 20 minutes before I stopped as I felt it had been long enough. That said, he was most likely the one seen in the scan without a heartbeat. I don't know how long he'd been gone but still felt I had to try - even if it was for my own peace of mind.

Good to know.  Hubby always takes them to another room and works on them so if it doesn't work bitch doesn't realise.

>(we nicknamed one Lazarus)

Love that! 

> but I wonder what about brain damage due to lack of oxygen.

You are right to consider this - we had one in one of our litters who had a very slow delivery and recovery.   She suffered from oxygen starvation  (anoxia) and although we kept her to around 18 weeks, had to let her go as she had no control whatsoever over bowels or bladder and you could see she was 'slow' from her eye expression.   I couldn't see letting her go to anybody, to find they lost patience with her, and she couldn't stay in our small pack as she was.   It was very sad as she was the lemon/white bitch I so wanted and never got in any subsequent litters.   In fact we only ever had another bicolour - a male who we kept.

I do wonder (when breeders mention it) if resusitation is the right thing to do. I know it is human nature to try and save a life and it'll be a sad day when that isn't our first reaction. However, isn't mother nature trying to tell us something? That there is something wrong with that pup. The problem may be obvious but I would guess in most cases it is not. So do these 'resus' pups go on to live long lives or are they always weak/ill? Interesting subject.

In my experience all the resus puppies have gone on to have normal length lives and so far none have suffered brain damage as far as we can tell, I have had a few still births over 35 years and they have been obviously dead on arrival, it's a difficult thing to explain but they are different somehow. I did have a puppy that seemed normal but mum kept pushing it away and not taking much care of it, the puppy died at nearly 3 weeks old we did not pm it but in that instance mum knew it was not right.  I suppose our instincts are to try and save these little lives and after all breeders don't refuse a c-section even in breeds that cannot whelp normally and surely nature is telling us to re-assess our breeding practices (sorry I know this subject is prickly).

I had a tiny, tiny baby(I hate the word runt). He was just 75  grams and flat. I gave him mouth to mouth, heart massage and swung him to hell and back lol. He is now 4 years old and the picture of health. He was the first puppy to be picked from the litter .

In my experience, My Tyson, named because of his fight for life, is still going strong, 4 years later. he is still called Tyson. So yes, do what you can. The rewards are beyond understanding. I could have let my Tyson go but the effort I made was worth everything. He has a wonderful home and a great future. However, I have had puppies that were not "resus" pups but have gone on to not be viable. One of my puppies had Hydrocephalus which was not obvious at birth and went to Rainbow bridge at 6 weeks. We all do what we can but please do not give up at birth.

Birth itself is a dangerous thing and perfectly viable pups are stillborn due to complications of birth, varying from malpresentation of a sibling, placental detachment, slow labour etc.

>I suppose our instincts are to try and save these little lives and after all breeders don't refuse a c-section even in breeds that cannot whelp normally and >surely nature is telling us to re-assess our breeding practices (sorry I know this subject is prickly).

mixedpack in answer to a prickly subject.

I have a breed known to have whelping problems.  And I believe that we should be working towards natural whelpings.  My vet has a client (he has never told me who) that prebooks ALL of his bitches for sections.  The breed DDB and I thought that a breed that big was bound to give birth naturally.

I spent many, many years, determined that I would have a natural whelping line.  My first bitch weighed 10lbs (way over standard) and needed a section because she couldn't give birth due to a too narrow vaginal canal.  My second bitch - uterine inertia.  I have never, ever kept a pup from a bitch needing a section.  And all pups were neutered.  My reasoning - if mum can't do it, why should daughter.  As I believed it to be genetic, then I reasoned that it could well be passed down a male line.  So dogs were never used either. 

This process needs so much patience.  The breed carries 1-3 pups on average so many people can't be bothered, it takes dedication.   I see a lot of breeders of my breed, just taking Caesarians for granted.  Soooo,,,, it has taken a million years, and when I (at long last,) bred a bitch that was going to be small and within the standard, and the line was "clean" I had to try not to get too excited.  I took her to my vet after her first season and asked him to check the pelvis.  He smiled and told me to breed from her.  But she wasn't very big, and I was worried.  So I took her again for a check, and again, and again.  I am surprised he didn't tell me to b off. 

I normally don't use my dogs on my own bitches, but I knew that I wasn't going to find a line that could tell me 100% that there was genuine free whelping.  So, although he was mine, he was in no way related.  And she gave birth like shelling peas.  I cried.  It was a long time coming.  And dozens and dozens of neutered dogs to get there.  I will point out to anyone wondering.  If any of my girls needed a section, they were spayed 3 months later.  And STAYED with me.

mixedpack I'm sorry this post is so long winded (and boy I could tell you much more) but I agreed with your post and wanted to give my side of things.  Perhaps someone will be good enough to post with differing views.  Only recently I have seen a post on CD where a breeder admitted that she was going to mate a bitch - knowing it would be a section.  I had to bite my reply I'm afraid.

I agree, that bitches should be able to reproduce whelp naturally and dogs have normal mating behaviour.

My breed are pretty natural, but I have had two C sections in my own bitches, ( I think with first I may have panicked and rushed to section as she ahd been in first stage over 24 hours) in their third and last litters. 

None of these girls daughters needed a C section, and one was the great grandmother of the other. 

The younger one has two daughters, two granddaughters that have been bred from.

So of course C section need may not be genetic, but in breeds where it is common it is something to seriously consider.

I may be guilty of not being prepared to leave and going for a C.Section too fast BUT my breed, and certainly my bloodline did tend to go to secondary inertia and once my vets saw what was going on, THEY'D say they'd go in rather than risk waiting.   Much as mum has to recover of course, at least you tend to get puppies who haven't had the trauma? of a natural whelping!    Not condoning having to have C.Sections but the need isn't necessarily because of conformation (big heads etc).    Our puppies were usually 'big' - weighing in at around 18 oz however.

As for resus - I heard a horrid story about a breeder (my breed again) who said she'd disposed of a puppy she thought was dead, only to hear it crying some time later ...................!

Facebook reply:

Lynne Lucas says:  My youngest was born supposedly dead and after half hour working hard and mouth to mouth she made it couldn't sell her then I said if she makes it she stays

Everyone knows about the drama we had with my last litter and the bitch taking her sweet, merry time to whelp. There were lots of comments about my choosing not to have her c, sectioned and there were people on both sides of the fence.

I, on the other hand, was there and could see that she wasn't in any distress, was calm, there was no spaced out look and she wasn't pushing without results. Would I breed her again? Possibly. This was my first litter with her so I cannot tell if the whelping was a one off or if this is her style. From what I understand about her breeding and lines- no one else has reported any issues. The next would most probably be her last anyway.