Hi has anyone any info on colours in cocker spaniels if I breed a black female who's parents are choc/tan and black/sable to a male that's black/sable and his parents are also black/sables should I get black/sables or would the solid black on my female side be dominant so then litter would be all black? O

Im not sure as we don't have many colour in my breed however this website has lots of information on that might help- http://www.doggenetics.co.uk

I believe black is dominant but that doesn't mean you will only get black coated puppies....if both parents carry the recessive colour genes you have a chance some puppies may have the recessive gene coloured coat.

If you don't already now - sable is an undesirable colour in cocker spaniels and the KC will only register them as a 'non recognised colour'.

As the black female is out of a choc tan and a sable she would have to be the recessive black not the more common dominant black as for both tan and sable markings to show the dog must be k/k not K/k or K/K which will both be dominant black so wouldn't show tan or sable colouring so if neither of her parents were plain black/choc (so not tan or sable) they didn't have the dominant 'K' gene to pass on. So she would be recessive black a/a, so can only pass on the recessive black 'a' gene. The sable stud would have at least one sable gene 'Ay' (which is dominant over tan and recessive black), so you should get sables yes but if you do and what else is possible depends on what other A genes the stud has. if he has two sable genes then all should be sables, if he carries tan each pup would have a 50/50 chance to be sable or tan, if he carries recessive black again each puppy has a 50/50 chance of being sable or black.
like wise with choc, if he is also a carrier of choc like the female each puppy will have a 25% chance to be choc, if he doesn't carry choc no puppies will be choc.

I don't have the time to give a full answer here but just to say that sable in Cockers is not inherited in the same way as it is in other breeds - the gene is located on the E locus not the A locus and is partially dominant.

It that it has now been proven that the Sable in Cocker spaniels is not a colour. It is a pattern; a very dominant one; more dominant than solid.

This is why the KC have chosen not to recognise Sable anymore as it is has the potential to completely wipe out both solid and parti lines.

> It that it has now been proven that the Sable in Cocker spaniels is not a colour. It is a pattern; a very dominant one; more dominant than solid.<br /><br />This is why the KC have chosen not to recognise Sable anymore as it is has the potential to completely wipe out both solid and parti lines.

The KC acted at the request of the Cocker Spaniel Breed Council and the fact the KC still accepts sable puppy registrations speaks volumes for the KC's priorities ;-) Whilst I'm not a particular fan of the pattern, it is rather dramatic to think that sable could wipe out every other colour & pattern since it remains easy enough for breeders to avoid lines containing sable (and of course there is a gene test available which can be used before breeding anyway). But that's by the by and doesn't help answer the OP's question so we'd probably best get back on topic....

"it is rather dramatic to think that sable could wipe out every other colour & pattern since it remains easy enough for breeders to avoid lines containing sable "

The problem is a huge amount of "breeders"(and I use the term very loosely) are deliberately and heavily breeding these lines as they believe they can ask more money for the resulting puppies. They are not "choosing to avoid lines containing sable". When the cost and location of the stud is the most important factor, second to how much they can charge for puppies, do we really believe that a gene test to rule out the Sable pattern will be at the forefront of their minds?

Over 80% of all Cockers now come from prolific sires. Genetic diversity within our breed is being lost at a staggering rate. An effective population size of below 50 indicates the future of a breed is considered to be at risk: our estimated population size is: 49.1

As the OP asked a question specific to a breed and resulting mating they should be granted all the information available regarding these lines so that they can make an informed decision.

Over 20,000 KC registered cocker spaniels were born last year. Reputable breeders, with the welfare of the breed at the heart of everything they do, only account for a small percentage of these births. We have to try to share information wherever possible.....

Out of interest as working and show cockers are not differentiated in kennel club registrations how do you distinguish which are which in the registration statistics?

> Out of interest as working and show cockers are not differentiated in kennel club registrations how do you distinguish which are which in the registration statistics?

Good point Barbara - there are no statistics available which differentiate between show & working types simply because it's not possible to do so based on KC registrations so any statistics quoted have to be considered in that light

Re comments made above by Darwinawards which seemed to have taken my comments out of context, we have no control over the volume or pet breeders (which has always been the case over countless decades) but my point was that careful, selective breeders are able very easily to avoid lines containing sable or test dogs first if they are worried there may be the sable gene there. Banning a colour/pattern does not prevent people breeding it and never will do - all the ban has achieved is to remove sables from the show ring - it has not stopped breeders producing this pattern for the pet market. Looking at registrations, as Darwinawards says, it is clear that most Cocker litters are bred for the pet market - only a small percentage make up the serious show/working breeding population. Those breeding for the pet market will always breed what is currently popular and so they will continue to breed sables and the KC will accept their registrations quite happily - pet buyers don't care whether a colour/pattern is "non standard" and in many cases they don't even care about KC registration. That is the reality of the situation and was ever thus.

IMO, as a show breeder, I would never breed from a dog with sable in the lines. Try to keep the true cocker colours.