64 days 1st mating, 62 days 2nd, 59 days 3rd - breed goes at 61 and scan at 5 weeks indicated earlier mating more likely.

So we are now 25 hours from temp drop.
Average 37.1-37.5.
9pm yesterday - 36.7
9am this morning 36.5
1pm 37.1
10pm (just now!) 37.7

Some nesting between 1am-6am, nothing since. Not eaten and been sick. Some very slight shivering around 7pm.
Having just visited the out of hours progesterone (pre-mate) was between 3-10ng. (Mother had progesterone 10+ 2 hours before waters breaking!?!?)
Vet does not want to section tonight given the pre-mate result, but does at 9am when the day staff come on if nothing has happened since?

This is a small-med breed, 12kg, high risk sections, although bitch is from self whelping lines.

I am concerned this may be inertia, but the vet basically said they do not have enough staff to resuscitate the 'possibly premature puppies'..... HELP!

Are we ok to go 36 hours from temp drop? I called another vet to be on stand by, all be it 30 minutes away but they have the staff.

God I hate these situations Sorry if its rambled im flapping!

Edited to add - Shes just had a drink of water and been violently sick.

First stage labour can easily take 24 hours, my litter last year went 36 hours and then second stage was fast.

I have never taken temperatures in 23 litters so have no idea how soon first stage labour starts from temperature drop.

> I have never taken temperatures in 23 litters so have no idea how soon first stage labour starts from temperature drop.

Neither have I.   This is where all this 'modern science' only confuses me.   I counted 62 days from the first mating and that gave me the due date.   If my bitches (who did tend to go into secondary inertia - first pain - ouch mum... you put them in there - you get them out, basically) went over by more than 2 days, I had my vet examine and treat as appropriate.    I didn't like to let our puppies 'sit' over time because they keep growing, making a C.Section more likely to be needed.

I never tested prior to mating (for the 'right time'), preferring to simply go by the reaction of my bitches and of the stud dog!!

Answer, from me - if your bitch is 2 days over from the first mating, involve your vet.

ps   As far as the temperature is concerned, it will fluctuate during the final week or so, but once it drops and STAYS DOWN you should expect whelping to begin within 24 - 48 hours.   Is all.

How is she doing, well on her way I hope.

Only just caught up with this.  And I'm hoping that you used the other vet!  At least you will get nurses eager to get pups going.  I walked into theatre once to find they had put my bitch in a heated cabinet, and pups were on oxygen.  Looked quite funny, as my breed only weigh a couple of ounces at birth.  All 4 pups had their heads in the same mask.

Behind the scenes everyone will fight hard to do the best for your bitch.  Please come back and let us know that all is well.

Sending positive vibes and hope a safe outcome for your girl and the puppies.......prayers sent

Hi Guys. Back to update, 5 lovely healthy puppies born by c section early this morning. Was just about to start another thread with regards to mums behaviour - it's not going well.
She's very anxious to be with the pups, cleaning them continuously and happy for them to feed. However once they wiggle out of sight she's biting them and growling. God this has not been an easy litter so far. She also does not seem to have much milk yet. Any suggestions for her behaviour? I feel I can't take my eyes off her at the moment. Very very out of character, she's so soppy. I think she's overly stressed? As am I!

> She also does not seem to have much milk yet.

Bitches do not tend to have a lot of milk in the first days as the puppies do not need a lot of milk & you don't want the bitch to get mastitis or the pups to have runny bums...

Some bitches do have different behaviour towards pups when C sections, this should alter in the next day or so when she becomes more in tune with her brood.

Try to relax & she will then do the same...she is probably picking up on your stress(which is understandable)...

You should not take your eyes off her, she will be totally out of her senses due to anaesthetic.

Encourage her to settle, and put pups on to teats, they need to suckle almost continuously to stimulate milk to come in.  It's demand and supply, and C section pups may be not sucking as vigorously and may fall asleep, so need putting on regularly.

You shouldn't expect to see much in the way of milk, and certainly no bagging up yet, that may occur after the third day, or not at all as with one of my bitches who obviously had a very synchronised let down response and showed very little mammary engorgement yet fed a litter of 7 really well, but never had full boobies.

Weigh the pups, they may loose the first day, but from the next should start gaining, the rate of gain should steadily increase.

Thanks guys.

I have been latching puppies and weigh daily. She's doesn't seem to be rejecting them as such (not that I've ever seen it) which is why I'm thinking its anxiety and stress related to the c section and being her first litter.

I've made her box a bit more 'cave like' and I'm stroking and encouraging her whilst feeding. She just will not let them go under the pig rails! Hopefully she's just being over caring and settles down. She will not be left with them alone at all.

Well as far as she is concerned she does not want them wandering off, but needs to keep them together within reach of her tongue and milkbar.

It is natural for her to wrap around her brood if they split up she wants to get them back together.

I'm glad a safe delivery of 5 puppies. I prayer mom settles down after trauma of c section.my thoughts,wishes and prayers with you all.

I found Hetty was a bit over anxious with her first litter, she kept curling tightly round them and trying to tuck them safely underneath her chest - where of course they would have smothered! Of course me pulling them out again to be sure they could breathe just made her want to tuck them away again, so we did have a tense day or two with me trying to make sure puppies could breathe and feed while trying not to stress Hetty out too much, and gradually we both managed to relax into it all. Putting a cover over the top of the whelping box to make it more cave like as you have done definitely helped.

make sure she has had some calcium now the pups are out.

Too much calcium is dangerous (eclampsia).

I thought eclampsia was lack of calcium? Or is it too little or too much that can cause it?

Both too much and too little can cause eclampsia.  I would not add calcium to a good food.

Here from the internet:

Pregnant bitches on a complete, balanced diet should not need or be given oral calcium supplementation. While it may seem counterintuitive, giving extra calcium during pregnancy has been shown to increase, not decrease, the risk of puerperal hypocalcemia in female dogs.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that.

Thats before whelp not after. I have a breed known for eclampsia and after birth we give lots of calcium. During labour we give tums for calcium to assist in contractions.
It won't hurt to give extra calcium..... the danger after birth is not enough!

Thanks, that's interesting. What are the symptoms? How would you know it's needed? I should say I'm not a breeder, just curious!