With my breed it also helps that the litter is probably the only litter on the ground in the UK when you are looking for homes...so we probably are spoilt in that buyers either agree to your terms or have no puppy.

I didn't choose the outgoing puppy from the pack of GSD puppies I viewed. Not the one that nibbled my shoelaces but the one being held by a friend of the breeder. We saw her went over and eyes met and I just knew. We knew when we had our allocated visit we had 5 puppies that had not been chosen. We hadn't decided gender preference either.

Unsuitable how?  I realise the sleeping puppy could be the most energetic and just sleepy. I'm trying to understand what you feel unsuitable is? Does a breeder even with a list of vetted buyers find from week 6 say a certain family would not suit these puppies and bump them from list?

I imagine your breed all look (to the untrained eye) identical

Not at all .. The degree of patches and darkness of ticking in white area can vary considerably and if one parent is solid liver some my be solid liver whilst other liver and white in variable degrees

> Unsuitable how?  I realise the sleeping puppy could be the most energetic and just sleepy. I'm trying to understand what you feel unsuitable is? Does a breeder even with a list of vetted buyers find from week 6 say a certain family would not suit these puppies and bump them from list?

I believe they mean that that spersific puppy that someone falls in love with may not be one suited to that particular owners lifestyle as you can get a range of personalities/drives in a litter, like say a puppy that is showing a higher prey drive isn't suited for a home with small pets, or a pup showing a good working drive is not suited for a home that isn't active, or a very pushy puppy not suited for a first time owner with no dog experance or a shy quiet puppy not suited for a very busy home. All of those can be unsutible matches, yes the owners may be able to change their lifestyles to accommodate the pup once they find this out but if they can't or don't it can lead to a very unhappy dog, unhappy owners or even a dog being putdown or dumped.

Like my brother buying a working bred farm collie pup that they fell in love with to be a quiet house pet. Dog wasn't getting what it needed, they didn't get what they wanted, it caused numerous problems untill they rehomed the dog to a farm. But that dog was lucky some arnt that lucky. just look on the sales sites and see how many are advertised due to the owner not being able to give the dog the attention it needs.

It's just like how not every breed will suite the same person, not every puppy in the same litter will suite the same person. There are breeds I like and would love to own but they are not suitable for me.

> I threatened to keep all 11 of them!!!

ROFL    

Oh - that's called "doing a Jean" 

Unsuitable how?  I realise the sleeping puppy could be the most energetic and just sleepy. I'm trying to understand what you feel unsuitable is?

Please read my earlier replies as I have explained this several times. In a litter, the puppies will not all have the same temperament. The breeder will be the only person to be with the pups 24/7 from birth and get to know their individual characters. Using my 2015 litter as an example, I had one buyer who wanted a dog to do scentwork with, competing, maybe training up to be a professional working dog. She obviously needed a pup with pretty high drive -the sort that would get bored (and therefore destructive, noisy etc) living as your average pet. I had another buyer who already had a bitch of the same breed. I met the bitch and she was extremely laid back. I had one pup in the litter that already from early on was more laid back than the rest. I suggested him to the owners of the laid back bitch, as their pup was just going to be a pet and companion. A high drive pup would not have suited their lifestyle OR their other dog. At the same time, this laid back pup would never have suited the buyer wanting to do scentwork -he was too laid back. I had another buyer who wanted to train his pup to be an assistance dog, as the buyer was disabled. He was not able to make the long journey to me, so asked me to pick him a suitable pup. Knowing he'd need a dog that would be happy to work all day, every day, he needed a pup that had the right attitude. He also needed a pup that wasn't over the top -he needed a middle of the road pup. So I selected a pup for him, and he's been working basically since he was old enough to phsyically manage what was needed. I kept the highest drive pup and comparing the two as they are today, I definitely made the right choice.

In my main breed, BYBs advertise their pups as "perfect family pets". People buy them, quickly find they have not bought a Golden Retriever, and the dog ends up in rescue -often at just around 4 months of age. One of my OWN dogs was a rescue (not bred by me, but I bred his mother). He was sold at 8 weeks of age as an ideal pet, very easy to train. The new owner lasted 48 hrs before giving up. He came to me at just under 9 weeks of age -already with separation anxiety.

In my toybreed, some dogs also need to go to competition homes or highly experienced homes. A littermate of my first one (i.e. the first one I ever had, so bought in) was returned to the breeder at 11 weeks as the new owner could not cope with their high energy pup -all 1 ½ kilos of him.

I have glanced through all the posts. Just thought I would add what I do.
As I am breeding to pick one myself to show I obviously want first pick usually a bitch.
When I get an enquiry and then a positive buyer, I tell them that they can come but no one will be choosing until I finally make up my mind.
Once I have chosen they can come again and I know who has first choice. Then each person is told they have choice of 3, choice of 2 for example.
The last definite person coming on is told they will not get a choice unless someone else is not too worried.
If they come and show a preference I would try and steer someone away if I can see they are hovering and then another person may well get what their first choice was.
I think if you are very clear on this point at outset, no one should get upset. If they don't like it they will go elsewhere, perhaps to a pet litter where they can have that first puppy that came to them and so on.

I understand Goldmali your views re suitable puppies for suitable families. High drive puppies suit high drive family etc. A quiet family will wish a quieter puppy!?

If you see the puppies 24/7 you see snapshots of potential,character traits how then can you in a hour meeting or long emails see a family's true character? People can tend to exaggerate or hide details.... It just seems that lovely quiet puppy could go to a thought of quiet family but they are actually high active characters.

All this byb breeders comments and deemed perfect family pets does edge my teeth a little. There are good breeders that are condemned as byb when they are not. They do not show, do not wish a puppy to keep yet do health tests,do not expect a war and peace essay, do not search house on google earth or keep ringing at different times of day/night see if family are home,meet the buyers, let the buyers pick from available puppies, they have good natured grown up in a house environment with children and are deemed as pets regardless of pedigree.

This is the attitude I encountered also at this show. I hadn't come along with my breeder (why not! Oh not showin her dam/stud! oh one of those breeders! (That comment made me livid)
The turning backs and ignoring me totally.  Another member came over they pointed to me and all walked away. Hardly the welcome,positive feeling I'd expected..... never again did I bother to try and enter a show or visit one....

I'm sorry to hear that Saxonjus. I have had quite the reverse happen to me in the short space of time I have been showing. I am a complete novice to it, but have encountered (mostly) very friendly people, helpful comments and interest in my dog. Those that haven't been, well I can live with that - you're always going to find people not on your wavelength. It's a shame to give up after one go, I was very nervous at my first, but found that the advice I was given at ringcraft class helped me to know what to expect and I've had terrific support from the owner of the pup's dad and the two breeders my dogs came from, one of whom shows and one who doesn't. And the latter is chuffed to bits that I am having a go with a pup she bred. So far I have enjoyed every minute, even if my pup is better at it than me!!

I'm sorry that you experienced that reception at your show, but it's for exactly that reason that I make sure I'm entered in at least the first 5 Championship shows to give support for anyone wanting to have a go at showing with a pup I've bred.

All this byb breeders comments and deemed perfect family pets does edge my teeth a little. There are good breeders that are condemned as byb when they are not. They do not show, do not wish a puppy to keep yet do health tests,do not expect a war and peace essay, do not search house on google earth or keep ringing at different times of day/night see if family are home,meet the buyers, let the buyers pick from available puppies, they have good natured grown up in a house environment with children and are deemed as pets regardless of pedigree.

So what you are saying is that you agree that it is acceptable for anyone to breed a litter of puppies just for profit? But don't you think that it is precisely because this is happening country wide that we now seem to have this explosion of available puppies and why there is such a rescue problem in the UK.

Friends in my breed and I have often joked that it would be a lot more profitable for all of us if we decided to concentrate on churning out "designer crossbreeds". We'd have a poodle or bichon stud dog and a variety of bitches in different breeds, maltese, cocker spaniel, etc. All health tested and with the puppies raised in exactly the same way we raise our original rare breed. None of the pups would be registered so we could do back to back matings ( more puppies) and the buyers could come and pick whatever puppy they wanted...We could also let our stud service as many other outside girls of whatever breed to make more money.

But we're not BYB or puppy farmers....because we're providing well reared, socialised puppies from health tested parents to the general public...

If you see the puppies 24/7 you see snapshots of potential,character traits how then can you in a hour meeting or long emails see a family's true character?

Because I see them a lot more than that usually. Most visit before the bitch has even been mated. The first thing I do is let several adult dogs in to meet them, to see how they cope.

All this byb breeders comments and deemed perfect family pets does edge my teeth a little. There are good breeders that are condemned as byb when they are not. They do not show, do not wish a puppy to keep yet do health tests,do not expect a war and peace essay, do not search house on google earth or keep ringing at different times of day/night see if family are home,meet the buyers, let the buyers pick from available puppies, they have good natured grown up in a house environment with children and are deemed as pets regardless of pedigree.

Saxonjus are you aware of what my main breed is? If you are, you should understand. Selling a full working line bred one (as the BYBs 100 % do) as a family pet, could be compared with a young child learning to ride a bike being given a motorbike instead of a plain old pushbike. These dogs need very experienced owners, and when full working bred (mine are not), are only suitable for police, MOD etc or those wanting to compete at the highest level in IPO, obedience, agility, working trials etc.

This is the attitude I encountered also at this show. I hadn't come along with my breeder (why not! Oh not showin her dam/stud! oh one of those breeders! (That comment made me livid)
The turning backs and ignoring me totally.  Another member came over they pointed to me and all walked away. Hardly the welcome,positive feeling I'd expected..... never again did I bother to try and enter a show or visit one....

I'm sorry you had this experience. Did you have your dog with you? I've not encountered anything similar. Two friends of mine have recently (last year) started showing their dogs. One of them has one of the hardest breeds there is to groom for a show. And her breeder does not show. But this owner has got totally addicted, goes to lots of shows, has made a lot of new friends, and is thoroughly enjoying herself. So is the other one, although her breed needs no show preparation coat wise. There are bad people in all walks of life, it doesn't mean all that show dogs are. You got unlucky and that is sad.

> If you see the puppies 24/7 you see snapshots of potential,character traits how then can you in a hour meeting or long emails see a family's true character? People can tend to exaggerate or hide details.... It just seems that lovely quiet puppy could go to a thought of quiet family but they are actually high active characters.

One good reason for having waiting lists, as it can then give a breeder months or even more to get to know a family with multiple visits or meet ups for a good chat. While yes a breeder will never truly know if a buyer is telling them the truth (one reason why some breeders Google houses ect to make sure they are on certain things as much as they can) a breeders responsibility is to their puppies, which is why sometimes letting a buyer have free choice between all the puppies in a litter may not be a wise choice so rather they let them pick between only the puppies that are suited to what they have said their lifestyle is.

No one on this post has said if a breeder lets a buyer pick from the whole litter they are automatically bad breeders or that breeders who don't are better just that sometimes it's not a good idea nor has anyone said if they don't show they are bad breeders. It's a shame you had a bad experance at a show but sadly as in all walks of life not everyone is nice but that doesn't mean everyone is like that. A friend's breed was like that when she started although it didn't help the dog she was showing (but I was handling) came from a byb who was basically a hoarder, he was a nice enough dog personality wise but breed standard wise no. One show the look on the judges face when she was going over him I thought she was about to throw up on him lol. But she stuck at it, got more involved in her breed, started approaching some of the others and found out who were the nice people.
My own breed was nothing like that when I joined, everyone was nice.

Ooh are you going to be showing her? be good to finally meet if you are at a show :)

Hey suejaw, yes thats the plan unless she hates it or we are terrible at it.  There are 2 scottish shows in December we are going to start at and see how we get on.  It will be good to finally put a face to the name and meet you

good luck at the shows. I won't be at any of the shows in Scotland this year. maybe next year if you travel down south with her breeder or others as it's a long trek from way up there :)

Aware yes of your breed :)... Other half was in Police and dog handler tried out for. We also puppy walked two police puppies for 6 months.  Two pups in a year really hard work.

I've not seen books from breeders advising made profits from a litter. With vet bills,possible c section,raising pups etc can be left with a small amount.  I've never asked. Some have bred because they enjoyed their dog, health tested and used a healthy stud dog. They felt they wanted to pass on their genes.

I did have my dog with me and my hubby too. He felt they were rude ignorant people and not our cup of tea at all.... We chose to leave show not even look round if this was the welcome we received.

Do you mind if we ask what breed, as PR from that breed would need looking at.

A letter of concern to the breed clubs would be useful, so they can see how others see people within the breed.

You get crabby people in all breeds and walks of life, but it should not be the norm.

I often invite potential breed owners to meet at a show as that is where a representative (maybe the majority) of the dogs begin bred from will be available to see and meet them and their owners, and owners have really enjoyed their day amongst the breed, even though they have no intention of showing..

My breed club's COE says this: Members will attempt to help and befriend new Belgian Shepherd Dog owners.

I have tried to avoid this debate as I know that my comments may upset but I need to voice my thoughts as others have already done....

With regards to the breed we both own I have over the last several years attended many shows and always found that I was received warmly, encouraged actively and supported fully with any and all questions I have asked. When I had reached the stage where I felt I could add value to a conversation I would happily share the knowledge, joy and trauma of showing, what is, a very popular breed. I have never seen the type of behaviour you describe and can confidently say this is not and never has been the "norm" within our breed.

If I remember the colour of your boy correctly(and I apologise in advance if I have not), he that carries a gene that is currently devastating the lineage of this beautiful breed. That, coupled with the fact that the colour cannot be shown as it is not a kc recognised colour, may have been why there was such a reaction on this occasion.

When reputable breeders have spent many, many years trying to improve the breed standard it is soul destroying to watch breeders, with no understanding of genetics and with no concern for the overall welfare of the breed, producing multiple pups purely for profit which will eventually lead to certain core colours in our breed being completely wiped out in the coming years.

The breeders you describe "wishing to pass on their dogs genes" normally have little or no understanding of our breeds genetic make up, nor the lineage that their dogs come from and therefore cannot, with conviction, know that the genes that there dogs are passing on are any good. This type of breeder and the commercial breeding which is currently widespread will be the reason that the breed I have loved for very many years and the breed you own will eventually become unrecognisable. It takes a swab, a few moments of time and a few pounds to health test a dog; it takes years of hard work and commitment to gain experience of genetics, lineage and breed knowledge to produce quality examples of the breed.

Hi Darwinawards

My boy is registered as black and white not blue roan as his sister was. Stud dog a chocolate.  In his litter 3 solid black 3 Chocolate and my boy black and white....
Wasn't aware of a gene currently devastating the lineage of this beautiful breed?
Bicolour are deemed fine with the kc

> Do you mind if we ask what breed, as PR from that breed would need looking at.<br /><br />A letter of concern to the breed clubs would be useful, so they can see how others see people within the breed.

It's my breed & I have never come across any of the kind of behaviour described by Saxonjus in over 30 years of showing - I don't think it's a PR issue as generally most people in our breed try to help newbies and will spend a lot of time answering questions, giving grooming tips (even helping newcomers to groom as I have done many times). I think if you are new to any activity, it can seem cliquey because you don't know anyone and it's all strange whereas all the "regulars" know each other and will be chatting away happily but that's the same for everybody when they start - it soon passes. We started showing with a dog that did not come from a show breeder - never once did anyone even make a comment about this fact or dismiss us because of this (indeed lots of people start out showing with their first pet dog which may or may not have come from a show breeder). Of course, not all people who show dogs are nice people, just as not all pet owners are nice people (humans generally are a very mixed bag!) BUT there are plenty of generous, helpful people in my breed as there are in any other breed.

Jane I understand there are plenty of positive visits to shows/clubs. There are in the minority negative experiences. I'm aware of regular "clicks" however which ever regular group be it book club or swimming club I've always made a new person welcome and have moved from the group to welcome them.

I've advised of my experience, didn't enjoy it and put me right off...
Brainless big thank you ☺☺

I do wonder as the poster met the people at a local club the cliqueyness may have been more exaggerated as the exhibitors may have been a group of close friends, whereas at a larger show there will be people who less close to everyone else.

The very friendliness that we enjoy may seem to be excluding when your on the outside looking in?

> I've advised of my experience, didn't enjoy it and put me right off...

Fair enough but it's only fair that others who have experienced the opposite should give their views too though, otherwise you get a skewed picture.

Any competitive activity does mean you have to be a fairly resilient person, able to take the rough with the smooth and not be easily put off - some people aren't made like that and so avoid competitive stuff and that's absolutely fine, horses for courses.

Interestingly I'm the show manager for our society and the one thing we go out of our way to do...is be friendly.
It's in my pep talk to committee on the morning of the show..." Be welcoming, friendly, helpful and positive ALL day". We get lots of complimentary remarks about it and the atmosphere seems to be the better for it all round.