I didn't mean guide as in show her what to do....I meant guide her in her choices.

It's better to keep her within your sights than to let her drift off and do her own thing.

>some of you get my point of view others are getting the wrong end of the stick and don't get it.

We all 'get it', it's just that we're facing the reality of the situation and trying to help you see how this can be turned, if not to your advantage exactly, but definitely away from potential disaster.

Too many precious people in the show game. I sell my puppies with endorsements and a clause to say they will not breed without my written permission. I would be thrilled if one of my puppies was used to improve the breed, with my permission. If everyone wanted to protect their line, which after all came from someone else, where would that leave the breed? Get a life and care for your breed, yes you are being selfish, sorry.

> I expect we all have occasions in which things have not gone the way we wanted it to & I know there are occasions which I bitterly regret but believed I was doing right at the time.

Too right.   Hindsight eh.   I think going with our gut reaction is normally the only way to go.   Hopefully you can keep in contact with this owner who, if she is experienced, shoud understand your feeling here - and the dog is still just a puppy in any case.

In many ways your in a better position with the pup being male, as if it were the bitch they could definitely breed, where with a male they need to be asked to use him, and even some of the best males owners don't get asked, or not to the girls you'd like best.

The problem you have pennyfields is they have you over a barrel on this. No matter your reasons for not wanting her to breed from him or how old he is or his health status (I'm guessing he isn't old enough to be fully health tested yet?) The KC will likley lift them if they ask.
The only choice you have is how involved you want to be in what happens with him. You can play nice, tell them if he passes his health testing you will lift them but want to be invovled on potential bitches for him (maby even draw up a stud agreement for them to sign?)  And have a chance of them agreeing to this or you can name and shame to others in your breed, tell them exactly how you feel and have them get the KC to lift them anyway and depending on their personality would they be the sort to possibility stud him out to bitches they wouldn't have before just to spite you?

Yes if they agreed to your terms when they brought him they should stick to it but without that singed piece of paper they can get around it.

As I said at the start I will do everything I can to stop her even name and shaming

The KC will rule in the buyer's favour as others have already said--the absence of a signed contract makes this outcome a certainty if you both go down this route. Naming and shaming is far more likely to adversely affect others' opinion of you than the buyer. Unless you sell your puppies at a reduced rate because owners are never going to be able to benefit from using them to further their own lines your attitude seems unreasonable. I endorse mine (even my own dogs remain endorsed till they are health tested and I am ready to include them in a breeding programme) but I make the conditions for lifting endorsements very clear to buyers. They get a copy of the contract of sale before viewing the puppies, and they are asked to sign/date the endorsement clause specifically when we meet, and then another signature on the contract as a whole.

I take it from your posts, Pennyfields, that this person is something of a rival? A person who is experienced, who would not want your input, who you would expect to understand endorsement and who you would "name and shame" (implying they have a name worth shaming, if nobody had ever heard of them then this would be pointless). Also a person with whom you don't want to share your "hard work" implying they have done their own similar work, perhaps not as well done or not to your taste?

In which case I can see why you're upset, both with the person for taking you for a fool, and with yourself for being somewhat foolish for not doing the endorsement properly.  I sympathise. It is awful to trust someone and then find them devious and untrustworthy. And it's terrible to find you were wrong about someone or that you have made a small mistake yourself with large repercussions.

Anyway, what to do?

I would urge you to agree to lift the endorsement on the condition that the requisite health tests come back clear (and demand any and all that would be applicable). The KC will lift the endorsement of you refuse to "because I don't want others benefiting from my hard work" but they may well back you if your reason is "he's not properly tested" or "his test results were not as good as the average in my lines".

If he is tested and is average or better then I'm afraid you must lift the endorsement or the KC will do it anyway. Refusing will do your reputation no good and hers no harm at all. Likewise naming and shaming - it makes the namer seem petty, not the named seem awful. As you have seen in this thread the vast majority will think it perfectly reasonable that a good quality health tested dog be used, her having possibly agreed not to use him when he was a few weeks old and unproven will mean very little to the majority. To most he will be an improperly endorsed dog from a breeder with an attitude problem. Added to that IF this person has intentionally done this to you then they will potentially quite casually destroy YOUR reputation to get what they want. Not a risk worth taking surely?

The KC will lift the endorsement of you refuse to "because I don't want others benefiting from my hard work" but they may well back you if your reason is "he's not properly tested" or "his test results were not as good as the average in my lines".

No they will not. It's very clear. No signed contract means any endorsement does not hold. The KC have stated clearly they do not get involved in disputes between owners. They just follow the rules.

Another is not getting it!!! It's not about me stopping anyone from using there boy or girl from breeding even if I asked for health test they can say " I'm not doing them" and I still don't have a chance of stopping her changing the endorsement as you all say. It's the face this person has gone behind my back after agreeing face to face they will not use him as a future stud and then 6 mo this later going to the KC to get it change. So lynnb not too fussed if you call me " selfish" I have morals and resent clearly this person who I sold to does not. And yes it was my fault I did not get a signeture So this person has no regard to respect my wishes when we discussed them face to face:)

Happy to admit pennyfields, I don't get it. I don't get your steadfast refusal to understand how minds can change when new information becomes aparent i.e. unexpectedly high level of show ring success. I don't get why you're not utterly thrilled about that, as a breeder, qudos to you I'd have thought. I don't get why you would prefer to estrange yourself from the glory and I don't get why you'd prefer to make yourself look bitter in public. I suspect it's too late now anyway, you have already made an enemy of this owner and you may simply have to suck it up buttercup.

pennyfields I feel very sorry for you, you've learnt a hard lesson, but you do need to move on. I was told at the weekend that a dog my stud dog sired, has been used on a girl from lines that I have spent years avoiding. I've refused on numerous occasions for my boy to be used on anything related to a particular dog and now his son will have sired a litter on this dog's daughter. I was livid on hearing this but, you know what, life's too short and so I'm going to sit back and watch the disaster unfold... Your boy could be infertile, the owner may never get asked to use him, etc etc and if he is, well good luck to them because they may be using him but they won't be able to tap into the huge knowledge you've got about your lines and the dogs behind them which is priceless.

If you've breeding a long time one assumes you have seen the fickle nature of many show people, friends one minute, back stabbing the next.
I'm just surprised you couldn't see the possibility of this eventuality.
A new breeder perhaps..but a breeder with ...were being told...an established 'line'? Learn from it, be nice and try to make the best of the situation.

As I said..the KC will overrule....move on.

Sorry if I'm being dim, but why would an established breeder want to buy a dog that she wasn't going to be allowed to breed from?

The inference is that pennyfields would not have sold to this person if there was an open intention to breed. So this person has "gone along" with the conversation at the time, and bought the dog, but never actually signed an understanding of endorsement and thus can decide to breed and have the KC lift it. But it could also just be that they have changed their mind.

I'm finding this all rather sad. It seems as if the OP doesn't want anyone who buys a puppy from her to then go on to show the puppy, do well with it and subsequently breed. If all the people involved in showing and breeding currently felt the same way then the showing and breeding of well bred top class dogs would be gone in a generation.

I've bought all my dogs from people that show their dogs, every one of them have asked if I have an interest in showing and should I decide in the future to breed from my dog, then to come back to them for advice about looking for a suitable sire or bitch.
I might add here that showing and breeding is not something that I've been interested in doing so I've not taken the offer up at any time, but have always felt really gratified that the help was offered freely.

I have followed this post from the beginning but didn't know whether I wanted to respond.

In my breed there are a fair many number of breeders who refuse point blank to sell puppies to experienced or new breeders or even anyone wanting to show. There are numerous references where they state they will not lift endorsements under any circumstances at all. I find this sad and off putting. I understand that someone has worked hard to produce 'their lines' but again, they had to start somewhere. Their foundation dogs also came from 'someone's lines' and if the new comer is happy to be guided and molded what is wrong with showing a newbie the way? Surely that would be better than having this so called 'perfect line' that they have worked so hard to create die out or be forgotten?

If there is a particular line the breeder has been avoiding, I for one, would be happy to hear why and try to understand - how else will we learn?

A very sad situation but in the end - if you feel so strongly about your lines, you need to ensure you follow guidelines as set out by the KC. No point in jumping up and down and throwing your dummy out of the pram when you haven't done everything you could have done initially. A bitter pill to swallow but take it and move on.....