Hi all

I would like other breeders thoughts please

I had a litter 7 month ago which all pups are now in there new homes, with my boys I always put endorsements on them to protect my lines. When a potential new owner visits us I always ask the relevant questions etc... On this occasion a lady want a boy for potential showing/pet. So I told her that's fine and all was agreed.

Fast forward 6 months and he is doing really well in the junior classes as I filled her on Fb, then I get an email from her asking what she needs to do to get the restrictions lifted as she "may" want to use him as a stud in the future. I said I feel a little cheated by you and feel mislead.I explained that as mentioned in our first meeting I will not lift any endorsements. Now I spoken to the KC who explained that she can try and over turn this due to no signed contracts. I am so annoyed not only with this lady for trying to con me but also with myself for not getting a contract.

Do I have a leg to stand on or are the KC going to side with her because there is no contract?

Thanks in advance

Why are you so against him being used if he is proving to be a good example of his breed? Would it not be better to 'get on side' that way you could guide her to only allowing him to be used on bitches that you think would compliment your lines.

It may be that back when you had the conversations the lady didn't quite understand about restrictions etc nor care about them as she probably didn't expect to be doing so well with her boy.

I'm not sure who's 'side' the KC would come down on but better to guide her that fall out, win your case, then find out she has used him anyway to have unregistered pups with some BYB.

Why won't you lift?
Surely if he is proving to be a good example of the breed, then what is the problem lifting them (as long as he has any breed related health tests beforehand)?

I suspect the KC would come down on her side as you didn't get her to sign a document saying she had the endorsement explained and she understood what it meant. That aside, if the dog is doing well in the ring proving that he's a good example of the breed, I would have thought the answer to her question ought tp be, " get all the relevant health screening tests done and if the results are good then no problem". What possible reason could you have for refusing? The dog is her property and unreasonable control by you the breeder is a bit much I feel. I agree with the previous poster who says best to stay friends and have a little leverage in the form of mentorship and friendly advice.

Do I have a leg to stand on or are the KC going to side with her because there is no contract?

About 19 yrs ago with my previous GSD there were endless delays in actually getting his papers - long story...bought from person who had bitch on breeding terms with bitches papers still in possession and name of bitches breeder who therefore had to register the pups. No mention of endorsements and the first I knew was when he was about 5-6 mths and I finally got the papers.
I had (and still have) NO intention of ever getting involved with breeding but in view of the hassle, delays and general 'messing about' I decided to be akward, about 2 lettters and 2-3 phone calls to KC and the breeding restriction was lifted. No he was never used at stud.

Current GSD has same endorsements which were explained and in the contract which I got when I collected him. No problem

I am against him being used because I have worked hard to get the line with nearly 30 champs. The lady new the restrictions and is experience in showing/ breeding I will do all I can to protect my lines. I gave my trust to her and it seems I will not get the backing of the KC. She said she does not remember me saying about the restrictions if that was the case why wait 6 months to check paperwork I check all mine with 24hrs if I bring in a new addition

It states quite clearly on the rules for placing of endorsements that not only must the buyer be informed, but must sign to this effect, and you need to keep a copy.

This is precicely to avoid this very situation.

So you sadly don't have a legbto stand on, as you did not place endorsements properly.

My own contract used to say I'd remove endorsements after health testing with good results.

After a situ a tion where someone  wanted to breed where they did not have suitable facilities,I uh Ave added that they would have to be willing to breed within the breed  clubs code if ethics and provide the level of lifetime support expected.

I would think the KC may well "side" with your puppy owner as there was no signed contract, I can understand you being very proud of your breeding of so many excellent dogs but it does come across as if you don't want anyone else to benefit from your work.  Surely it is part of good breeding to pass on our wonderful dogs for others to enjoy and carry on the lines, maybe you could help her with choice of bitches etc. instead of making an enemy of her.

I have to say I would have a chat about the breeding and how you would wish the lines to be persevered. Hopefully she should be on same lines with you and be selective and even involve you in the mating decisions. To be her friend and advisor and lift the restrictions is much better place to be than have her fight to get them lifted and have an enemy.

The dog is clearly a good example of the breed, why not let him benefit the breed and improve it for the future? Nobody should be breeding for themselves but the benefit of the breed as a whole?
If you never want your boys to be used, you need to sell them to pet homes only as in the end dog shows are and should be a place to evaluate the breeding stock... people go to shows to view potential males so no point in having them at show if they can not be ever used as breeder will not lift endorsements in my opinion. Or is it a common practise in your breed to do this?

As others have said as you didn't have them sign something to say you informed them of the endorsements the KC will likley lift them without your permission if the owner contacts them.

However if you trusted this person enough to have one of your pups, they are experanced in showing/breeding and he is proving himself to be good quality why don't you want him to possibly go back into continuing his breeds gene pool?

As you basically can't stop them getting it lifted if they want to I'd forget letting them know how you feel about the situation and start building some trust with them so you can guide them on better choices on lines to consider or not best to use him on. Other wise you will end up losing all contact.

As the endorsements weren't placed correctly and will probably be overturned if she presses for it, why not work with her on this, instead of against her? Say that i the puppy does well in the showring, and that the owner gets the relevant health testing done with satisfactory results, say that you'll lift the breeding endorsement when the bitch enquiries start and you can help her decide whether a bitch is a suitable match? It could be that nobody wants to use him anyway and the endorsement can stay!

Hi I don't want to pass them on to this individual as they have gone against what I have asked them. Why should she be allowed to benefit from my hard work??? As I said at the start I will do everything I can to stop her even name and shaming

As I said she clearly stated to me she was only using him to show and be a pet it's not about me restricting the breed its principal I'm my eyes she has lied about his purpose if she said when she come " I may want to use him for stud" I would not of homed him to her. Guess trust and respecting the breeders wishes counts for nowt

With all due respect, haven't you benefited from the past hard work of others? After all you had to start somewhere.

Well, you haven't done everything to stop her, because you didn't follow the clear guidelines in how to place endorsements, so I wouldn't bother with the naming and shaming really. If there is nothing in writing to say that the buyer knew of and understood the endorsements, then I'm afraid you should assume that the KC will lift them and that you are better staying on good terms with the puppy owner.

I have to say, I was fully on board with the KC putting clear guidelines around this process in place. Too many breeders were using them to hold people to ransom, with too many people never having been told of the existence of endorsements in the first place.

Why do you not want this person to breed?

Pennyfields, I feel you are quite in the wrong here and this smacks of spite. How are breeds to go on into the future unless the hard work and knowledge gained by people like yourself and others is opened up to new enthusiasts.

>Why should she be allowed to benefit from my hard work???

Did you start with quality dogs that you'd been entrusted with by other breeders or have you created your valued line entirely from scratch?

I think you should have a long hard think about what you  intend to do, if this person is familiar with the showing world then she could do you as much harm as you wish to do her.  I am afraid you sound very selfish if you want to keep all the good dogs for yourself and have complete dominion over who does what with your puppies, maybe you need to consider keeping all your puppies or selling them without registrations or neutering before sale if you wish to exercise such control.

Do you have stud dogs of your own?
Surely everyone who uses another breeder's dog at stud is benefitting from their hard work.

Maybe she has been asked by others if they can use him at stud, and before that she had no intention of breeding him.

As the breeder of the dog you should be happy he is doing well at shows, I could understand your objections if he was a poor soevinen

I will repeat again! This lady agreed to my endorsement at the time. Yes it's my fault I did not get a contract but why cannot she stick to the terms which she was well aware of at the beginning

He is my own boy yes

I have worked years on my breed so please do not call me selfish. Of course I want the best dogs that's what I want to achieve the best of the best.

I will repeat again it's the dishonesty of the lady she asked it to be lifted and I said no, surely I have that right and she should respect that

Yes of course

I will repeat again! This lady agreed to my endorsement at the time. Yes it's my fault I did not get a contract but why cannot she stick to the terms which she was well aware of at the beginning

You can't enforce this now but I don't understand why you don't want her to breed from him, coming from such good stock.  Is it like many (mainly USA breeders) who want repeat buyers so neuter their pups before sale?  PLEASE don't start doing this!

Pennyfields, I think all of us here have only one question to ask of you and that is Why? Why are you so adamant that this quality, show winning dog must never be bred from. Never pass on his qualities to future generations. It isnt enough to just say "because  i say so" There must be a proper reason.

Written contract have proof of what is written & possibly/usually signed.
Verbal contracts are still contracts, there is just no proof of what is agreed verbally.
This is not just in the dog world, it is in work etc....

I find this strange too. I am in a breed where we must encourage new blood (people) for the breeds future. I do have endorsements and get the people to sign at the time and verbally take them through everything before they sign and can take their puppy. BUT at the same time I do have people albeit rarely who have wanted to breed. Having the endorsements in place is simply a way for me to be involved in any decisions, to ensure health testing is carried out and has at least breed average results and a good specimen.
It is not in place to "stop" someone else breeding. After all I received a lot of help from my mentor who passed on the benefit of her experience when I first ventured into showing and breeding.

I would take it as a compliment. If she is serious about the breed and ready to start her own lines, it should be an honor that she feels your breeding is a good place to start! When she breeds from him the pups won't be under your name or kennel name, and the puppies won't be all your breeding, only half! If anything potential pup buyers may look and think "sire is from great lines, we'll go for this puppy".

Being new to my own breed I would have been devastated if my endorsements hadn't been lifted from my foundation bitch. Especially after I had done all the health tests and shown her for 2.5 years. I'm honoured to be allowed to breed from my bitch now. Why not take an active stance in helping her start her breeding/showing career. It's easier to make friends than war :)

I could be completely wrong but I feel it's more about a feeling that the owner could have been dishonest when pup was purchased than anything else. Of course the flip side is that she really didn't intend to use him and that has only come into play since he has done so well. Clearly penny fields is aggrieved at what she sees as dishonesty.

Verbal agreements will hold no power. You can draw up a contract stating endorsements relating to registration of progeny will never be lifted BUT these must be placed before puppy changes hands and signed agreement must be obtained before sale. Without such a written contract the KC is likely to remove endorsements as not placed in accordance with its rules.

In the situation you find yourself in I would personally work with the owner witn regards health testing, agree what constitutes acceptable results and go from there.
If you make an enemy of this owner the KC will rule against you and any influence you may have over testing and potential matings will disappear in smoke

K

To be fair if you feel that strongly about not allowing your males to be used, why on earth did you not place endorcements properly, and make it completely clear in writing at time of sale.

To be honest it is more likely you will end up named and shamed.

> As I said at the start I will do everything I can to stop her even name and shaming

The problem is you can't do anything to stop them. The kc would list them if the owners ask as they wernt put on correctly so you can not do anything to stop them now. All you can do is try to work with them and guide them to make suitable choices otherwise if you turn the situation into a massive fight it will only be you who will lose out in the end not them.

> Why should she be allowed to benefit from my hard work???

But this is the nature of breeding for the better of the breed. Breeders adding in diffrent but quality lines who complement each other and new breeders starting out with quality dogs. Just as you would have gotten your first dogs from another breeder and benefited from their work.

> I will repeat again it's the dishonesty of the lady she asked it to be lifted and I said no, surely I have that right and she should respect that

Is it not entirely possible when they brought him they had no plan to breed him but as he is turning out to be good quality they now feel it would be a waste to the breed not to put him back into the gene pool. When I got my girl I had no plans to breed at all, I just wanted a pet and to show. But she grew up to be a nice girl and he health tests went well, her breeder lifted her endorsements and worked with me to plan our first litter.

Is it not entirely possible when they brought him they had no plan to breed him but as he is turning out to be good quality they now feel it would be a waste to the breed not to put him back into the gene pool.

Exactly my thoughts. I bought my first dog (well it was a bitch) of my main breed intending to never show and breeding had never, ever entered my head. I told the breeder I had NO wish to show, full stop. But things change and she became a Champion and Crufts BOB winner and is now the great great granny of my latest litter. All these years later her breeder is still in close contact and she's never regretted lifting the breeding endorsement as far as I know! She worked with me for my first few litters and helped pick stud dogs etc.

> I am afraid you sound very selfish

She sounds downright vindictive to me.  And she doesn't have a snowflakes chance in hell of stopping the KC from lifting these restrictions.

There is no such thing as "My lines".

We are all working on the back of breeders who went before, shared their dogs and hopefully bettered the breed.
I suggest you move on.....

How many of us can honestly say they started out showing and breeding with prior knowledge they were going to do that. We go to some shows, win some rosettes and perhaps foolishly it changes our life forever. I know that is what happened to me.

I have heard of people going to the KC and getting endorsements lifted which for me is just not on.   Being a Libra (cusp Scorpio which is a difficult thing to be - balance vs getting fizzed up if pushed too hard) I'd like to be able to see both sides in this.

1.   I'm ALL for protecting a bloodline and for sure IF the dog were to be allowed to breed (nothing to stop that, just the puppies won't be able to be registered btw) it could be out on her own, this novice? owner might not be experienced enough in the breed, and let him be used on anything, and YOUR lines will be involved.
2.   If the dog IS a good one, why not lift the endorsement but try to keep her onboard so you have a say in what bitches he mates with - and explain why to her.   After all the owner of the stud dog is 50% responsible for what he produces, and your lines will be involved and that might not necessarily be a good thing if he's mated to an 'inappropriate' bitch.

Difficult one and I wonder who this owner has been talking to re having his endorsement lifted!!    I do think it would be better to try to work with her, than just put up a blank wall - and she may well manage to persuade the KC to lift that endorsement so will be out there letting him be bred with ???, WITHOUT your help and guidance.

ps  "There is no such thing as "My lines".
Sorry, but there IS!!   After many generations, even if we all buy our foundation stock, when a breeder works on developing a good recognisable bloodline, that line most certainly is 'my line'.

Sounds like she is trying to hide something to me.
There is no valid reason not to lift them.
This is the very reason I don't like endorsements and will not use them or buy a dog that has them.
You cannot trust your puppy owners to come back for advice if this is the sort of response their going to get.

>I am so annoyed not only with this lady for trying to con me

I don't see that the lady is trying to con you. Circumstances change over time, and it seems you've sold her a better-quality pup than you thought you had! It would be of benefit to your name and that of 'your line' if his genes were perpetuated for the betterment of the breed. Work togethr with her on this and it will bring kudos to you.

I can see it from the OP's side. My boy was used at stud on an import bitch. One of the puppies went to another person in my breed. She has allowed him to be used at stud, which is up to her, but I recently heard that she had agreed for him to be used on a girl that is from lines that I've tried to avoid for various reasons. I have been really upset over this and it has made me think twice about whether to allow my current younger boys to be used at 'Open' stud.
Going back to the original post, do we not think that 6 months is a bit too young for the owner to be asking about the lifting of restrictions?? I don't know what breed this is, but in mine it would only become an issue if someone actually wanted to use him. I put endorsements on all of my pups, even my own, and won't consider lifting until all the health tests have come back with satisfactory results. Is this a breed that needs testing? It might be a way of starting a conversation, especially as once the owner looks into the cost, they may change their minds....

And of course, if you never lift endorsements then when you retire from breeding your carefully-cherished line simply dies out, having done nothing to benefit the breed in the longterm.

I really don't get your attitude.

Surely it's better to guide her to matings which compliment each other rather than fall out with her altogether.

Ok, so she initially said endorsements were fine, but we can and do change our minds when things turn out different to originally expected.

Bite the bullet and give her a call.....

I don't think you have a leg to stand on as no contract. 
Have you thought about maybe once his health tests are done as he's only young and bearing in mind that puppies change a lot he may not be the adult dog they had hoped for. I'd suggest to her that once he's had all the health tests done and they are good and he's reached 18 months old you'll happily discuss it then.
I think at 7 months old it's far too early to lift anything. 

Keep this owner onside and see how he fairs as he grows up as we've all seen that smashing puppy who doesn't turn out quite as you'd expect as they hit maturity.

> And of course, if you never lift endorsements then when you retire from breeding your carefully-cherished line simply dies out, having done nothing to benefit the breed in the longterm.

Not so - surely if the breeder breeds and keeps the best of the litter(s) and then allows a dog she's kept and has been successful with, to be used on selective good quality bitches, from lines they know will/should nick, there's no reason for the line to 'die out'.   I did this and see 'my lines' behind many hounds in the ring today.   And I've not bred a litter since 1997 and have been retired from breeding/showing for years not.  My biggest regret was, and always will be, is not putting endorsements on two I sold to a fellow breeder who at the time I misguidedly trusted.

I never lifted an endorsement, not that I was ever asked to.    Most good breeders would endorse the immature puppies they sell, having selected 'the best' to keep.    If over time, those sold puppies turned out to be good, and the breeder is approached to lift the endorsement, for a SPECIFIC breeding, then it might be prudent to, but knowing that once lifted, that dog could be used on ANY bitch!!

I don't need to guide her she is an experience owner.  And in my opinion should of now better

I think this post has run its course some of you get my point of view others are getting the wrong end of the stick and don't get it. Thanks for your thoughts have a great day :)

I believe most of us 'get it' but unless you want to loose total contact, you may well have to go in a different direction than you wish, in order to remain in contact/be involved.

I expect we all have occasions in which things have not gone the way we wanted it to & I know there are occasions which I bitterly regret but believed I was doing right at the time.