I took my maiden bitch to an experienced stud dog and she mated with him yesterday. She didn't like it initially and bit the stud dog owner but then we held her and she had a 15 minute tie. I took her back again today and although she was very happy to see him when he began to mate her again and I went to hold her she just laid down and he stopped. She wouldn't allow herself to be mated again I matter what we did.

Would she have stood the first time even if she wasn't ready? Or is it that she remembers what happened and doesnt want it to happen again? I'm wondering if sh picks up my nervousness (because she bit the first time)?

Any ideas/thoughts?

Thanks.

Sounds to me like she isn't ready at all. I'd never force a mating in that way. I'd wait another 48 hrs and then try again.

Hi thanks for your reply. She wasn't forced, she was quite happy until the tie began and then she panicked so we held her to reassure her and to ensure no damage done to either dog. Today she stood for him until I went to held her then she would have none of it. I'm wondering if she picked up on my nervousness that she might bite again as she was happily letting him start until I bent down to her.  I had taken her two days previously and the stud didn't attempt to mount her as he knew she wasn't ready.

I have a bitch that hated the tie, and needed to be held during it as she turned turtle, but she would not dream of biting the person she trusts most.

Personally in my breed I would  allow the dog to court her and if she allows mating only get involved hands on once mating is beyond the point of no return and gently steady he with hand to chest to prevent forward motion and hand under abdomen to prevent sitting.

Thanks for your reply. She didn't bite me she bit the stud owner and I think that was in panic to be honest.

My concerns are that she isnt standing for a second mating because she wasn't ready the first time. Is it safe to wait a few days for a second mating or could that cause problems with potential puppies being different stages of development from two matings too far apart?

The stud dog didn't even attempt to mate her a couple of days before. Would she have stood too early because she was a maiden?

> could that cause problems with potential puppies being different stages of development from two matings too far apart?<br />

This isn't possible, the embryos all inplant at same time about three weeks after mating.

The ova are released over about 36 hours and live for about 48 hours so no matter how far apart the matings conception can only occur for about 48 hours, from two days after ovulation.

Thank you for that. Now I will take her back day after tomorrow rather than tomorrow and hope she is more willing.

I think that we expect a lot of our bitches, we generally take them to a strange place with people they don't know, present them to a dog which they have never met, then sometimes with a minimum of courtship and often a lot of hands on, we effect a mating.  The tie seems to worry and even be uncomfortable for a lot of bitches, some get grumpy or try to get away and others whine and grizzle throughout the length of the tie and even if they are ready and willing they don't seem to enjoy the process. It is lovely when a pair meet and mate naturally but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the norm for all sorts of reasons, I would suggest that you do as you posted and take your bitch back later, in my experience bitches are often presented a little early as their owners don't want to miss them.

Thanks for your reply Mixed pack. I think you are right.

Either too early (more than likely) or too late, but how did the male react.   If he was an experienced stud dog he should have 'told' you.   Many experienced stud dogs won't want to mate a bitch a second time if he's had a good tie the first time.   And if she hadn't been ready/gone over, I'd not have expected him to do the job either.

Whatever the case, there's no way she should have bitten you/the stud dog owner.   Yes, see the male off if she wasn't ready/gone over, but I'd not be happy to mate a bitch who bit anybody.   Just my opinion.

He didn't mate her the first time he met her, but he did the second a few days later. The third time they met he attempted several times but she just sat down each time. He is experienced and that is why I'm confused as he did tie with her and yet the second time she wouldn't let him mate her. I think she was too early.

I agree I wouldn't mate a dog that had bitten anyone, but until the stud was mating her she had never bitten anyone and I think it was in panic as she didn't know what was happening.

Thanks for your reply.

My hypothesis:  The tie itself is very uncomfortable often for a maiden bitch.  It swells up inside her... I think she probably experienced this the first time, and maybe she wasn't quite ready either (which didn't help), and now she has decided she really didn't like what happened, and she doesn't want it to happen again. 

Do you have a different room or location to try in, next time?  Like garden, or another room in the house?  To try to make it as dissimilar to her previous experience as possible.  Are the dogs allowed some informal play with each other first? 

Finally, one experienced stud owner we saw, used vaseline applied inside the bitch beforehand.  KY jelly is probably better - but if she is uncomfortable during the tie, maybe that could help??

Really finally - it may be that someone is going to need to support her under her belly so she can't lie down.  Not everyone would want to do that and some people would say it was a forced mating.

Allowing the dog and bitch to spend more time should help her warm to the ideabas the peak of her receptive period arrives.

It would have been better to leave her with the stud ( supervised of course ).

might be wrong but thought vaseline and ky jelly kill sperm?

I know of a time - an experienced stud dog and maiden bitch - day 1 - refused to let dog mount - dog keen and knew ready - bitch flagging but unsure - lots flirting - but still not letting dog mount without snapping at him. 

Owners came back next day - bitch totally different and allowed dog to mount but freaked after dog penetrated so slip only!

Ideally would have wanted the bitch back the next day but the owners couldn't come back so we decided to try again later that day - given the stud some time to recover hopefully - bitch came back - tied and bitch happy!

I looked into vaseline, ky re making more comfortable but read that this killed sperm so decided against it.

Yes we let them play together until they were ready.....or she seemed ready, as in she let him mount her. It was only when I went to hold her that she sat down and I really think she picked up on my nervousness. I do think it may have been too early so am planning to take her back today. Ideally I would have left her with the stud tbh.

Thank you all for your help.

I suggest try not to go in too early to hold her then - this might be putting her off - let them do their thing just be nearby but avoid going in to hold her - the dog will tell you and if she is ready he won't give up so easily - the stud owner hopefully can tell if he is interested or just 'playing around'

Ok thanks. Think he's more keen as he knows he already did it with her once lol. I will try to hold back this time.

>I suggest try not to go in too early to hold her then - this might be putting her off - let them do their thing just be nearby but avoid going in to hold her - the dog will tell you and if she is ready he won't give up so easily

In reading through the posts here, this is what I wanted to say.  I never hold the female before the tie is in place.  I did have one male who appreciated this, but usually the couple doesn't want this interference.  I wait until the tie has occurred - I see that immediately - and then go to them quickly but without alarming them and gently and quietly praise and encourage them.  I stay with them until the tie is over.

Exactly  so the humans should really be for safety discreetly in the background.

This does require  the patience to allow the couple to become acquainted and comfortable with each other.

In my breed the bitch if at all possible ( if not the male) will stay in same housefold from a day or two before she is likely to be ready.

This way the male learns to wait, and the bitch warm to her intended mate.

From what I can ascertain in the past bitches went to stay within the stud, until mated at least on two days.

I have had the studs stay with me on several occasions, as well as bitches staying with him.

Vaseline does kill sperm (looked that up), but we had 2 matings with it and 7 puppies, so clearly it isn't effective as a spermicide - and this was a very experienced stud owner who does this with all bitches which visit her boys.

KY jelly/lubricant doesn't kill sperm, it's designed not to and to be able to be used by couples wanting to conceive...

I used to allow mating to take place freestyle until a couple of years ago when my dog mated a maiden and as soon as they tied she barrel rolled and pulled him out before I could get to them. Ouch, it was a very uncomfortable experience for my boy although he mated the bitch successfully after taking 20 minutes to re-arrange himself but this time we held both parties and do this routinely now, not terribly romantic but so far they have all had puppies and seem fairly relaxed about it.

Oh, this would frighten me too.  And I know that serious injuries can occur.  It's just never happened with my small dogs, and I can get to the pair within max. 10 seconds from where I am observing them.  My male will not mate if I hold the female, so I don't have much choice.
With the exception of my other male (who I no longer use), I have found this to be the case with the other males who have "serviced" my females over the years.

>

> She didn't like it initially and bit the stud dog owner

I will never forget a bitch that came to stay.  Easy for me, it's a tiny breed.  Great I thought when she kept putting her backside in his face.  She was quite obviously ready.  But once tied, she screamed and screamed.  It continued throughout the 20 minute tie.  I've never been so glad to see a bitch leave here.  It can get to you when there is no let up. 

oh I was at friends once and her bitch screamed throughout - got the neighbours looking out the windows haha!

wait until the tie has occurred - I see that immediately - and then go to them quickly but without alarming them and gently and quietly praise and encourage them.  I stay with them until the tie is over.

yes agree - go in once the deed is done and quietly - yes definitely hold stay until the tie is over

Mine screamed throughout the ties, and I was more stroking and reassuring her than holding her really - but I did have her collar, just in case.