If a stud dog is consistently producing elbows 0/0 (good) but has less than perfect elbow results himself example: mild to severe do you think he should then continue as a 'Stud Dog' based on what he's producing.

Just trying to get my head around 'elbows' and hopefully learn something.

I would have thought that a dog with bad elbows shouldn't have been bred so one wouldn't know what he was producing (i know that doesn't help if the dog HAS already been used!).

Isn't that a bit like saying I know a stud who so far has produced 2 litters of 100% girls so next time I'm sure they will all be girls.

When allowing a dog to be used at stud, or mating a bitch, it's like using building blocks and even if this dog apparently has a good record in his offspring (which I'd doubt if his scores are bad), who knows what might come out of the woodwork down the line.   I tend, hips and elbows apart, to look as much if not more, at the grandparents as the parents.

Frankly if I had a dog with poor scores, I'd not allow him to be used.   End of.

Hips and Elbows are a Genetic problem and I understand that whilst the offspring may be zero rated it is in the Bloodline and therefore they could produce pups with poor scores. I am a little sceptic about the comment that all the pups have scored well, as I would question how many of these pups would have actually been scored themselves. Very few pups in any given litter are ever scored themselves.

Only 0 scores should be used, only a 1 could be used with care.

I wouldn't because I've seen it skip a generation or two and also a lot is down to the dam as well and her lines.
Yes it's all.partly.genetic and other factors come into play but I know a dog who wasn't that high himself produce may you Hugh scores and the generations down the line would also produce random high scores.

So no its a really.silly.thing to do personally.

I agree with much of what's been said here.

Just wondering also, if their are anyone (kennel club, breed clubs etc etc) doing any research to monitor if dogs with elbows 'mild to severe' are producing a high percentage of tested pups that have elbows above 0/0, because if they are producing them then they should be retired from stud duties.

In a perfect world pedigree's would be 0/0 all the way through.

Probably health Co ordinators for breed clubs and breed councils.

There is the Kennel Club health  report, and the BVA table of elbow scores, but no work by site that I know of per breed.

From what I have read it would appear  heredity is a much stronger correlation with elbows than hips.

From what I have read it would appear  heredity is a much stronger correlation with elbows than hips.

I believe its more heredity, however some people seem convinced its more to do with the wrong type of exercise when they are growing, I don't know maybe there is a bit of truth in this also ...? who knows

The exercise arguments seem relatively new to me. Having owned dogs as a child, teen and now again in my 30's, I can remember nothing being said 30 years ago about over exercise. In fact friends with working collies were taking pups out to train with the older dogs from a very young age and by 16-20weeks those pups were running 15-30miles a day with the adults, and all lived and worked into old age. Likewise, the working spaniels and labs I knew as a teenager worked all day with the adults from 5 or so months and again had mostly long and healthy lives.

I think it is partly to do with changing types (for example GRs are much longer of back and shorter of leg than 30 years ago, the bully breeds are heavier of bone etc. everything seems to get more exaggerated) and narrowing genetics.

I'm not so sure poodlenoodle.
I bought my first GR in 1987, so that's nearly 30 years ago. The breeders told me that I would have to restrict exercise until she was a year old and to be careful on stairs with her as well, so not really a new thing.

Same advice as Jodi when I got 1st GSD in 1989.

re comments on working sheepdogs - I would imagine any that showed any sign of problems were not the ones that were bred so the genetic disposition would have been bred out a long time ago, same with working gun-dogs, plus as you say the changing 'style' for showing

> e comments on working sheepdogs - I would imagine any that showed any sign of problems were not the ones that were bred so the genetic disposition would have been bred out a long time ago,

I think it all depends on the type of farm that the WSD's are born on. A huge number of them go into rescue because their temperament is not right or because there is a better dog from the litter. I have a rescue WSD ( a collie that has no papers) and he is not the first and I doubt very much that he will be the last dog to be given up to rescue by the same farmer. I would imagine that most of the ones that go into rescue are from farmers that breed what they have rather than what is best suited.

I got my first GSD in 1976 and was told not to over exercise her or allow her to jump until 12 months. No specific amount of time for exercise was given at that time such as the five minute rule. I was also told to carry her up stairs, even the steps to the front door. Trouble was she still expected this when she was 12 months and it took a bit of doing to get her to climb them on her own. It must have looked strange to the neighbours a 5ft woman carrying a GSD up steps.

We only had medium or large breed  mongrels when I was a child/teen and no breeder (as in, owner of accidentally impregnated bitch!) or rescue centre ever told us not to let them jump or climb stairs or gave any limit on how much they should walk. Most of the people I knew who owned working dogs would have laughed at the suggestion of carrying their dogs on stairs, many of them having 2-3 under 12 months at a time.

I would have thought that if the pups 'Muscle' is strengthened first (gradually) around the joints etc then there would be far less chance of injury in the future to the joints (elbows etc).

I believe that if pups haven't strengthened their muscle's enough (gradually) then they will be more likely to get a joint injury in the future, not suggesting that I am right its just a theory/belief that I have ...?

When I was a kid I done as many press ups as I could do (built up more & more over time) I went boxing twice a week, I even worked out with weights, I would beat everyone in my school at arm wrestling. None of these things ever damaged my joints (quite the opposite I believe it strengthened them). I have worked out with very heavy weights as an adult now for many years and I have never had any joint injuries whatsoever, many of my friends (door men etc) who started training years later than me have had various joint problems. I don't know maybe I have just been lucky not to have got injured ...? but that's why I am a big believer in gradual exercise is good for us and probably pups as well. Just my belief.

I think this is probably the case (about muscle protecting joints and the need for muscle building being gradual and kind).

Personally I am not carrying my 19kg dog up and down the stairs, however I did carry him every time until 12 weeks (even the single step into the garden had a ramp which he now ignores and leaps down without it) and now he is 5 months we use a baby gate at the bottom and he only goes up and down once a day (for bed and upon waking). He is lifted into the car and when he jumps out I hold the back of his padded harness and land him very softly. However I do let him run about on very rough hilly fields where he often chooses the steepest paths for himself.

Another factor I thought of before is exercise patterns. My boy gets a similar amount and type of exercise most days. Once a week he gets no field walk (just a short pavement one) but goes to a training class, and once a week he might get a longer field ramble. But I know lots of dogs whose owners work and they get two quarter mile potters round the block Monday-friday and are expected to run next to a bike for five miles both days at the weekend.

For me the main sign I try to stick to is that he comes home with some "spring" in his step still. If he is visibly tired then it was too much. I don't strictly time pavement walks either but try to be sensible and to watch him closely instead.

I wonder how much the rise in puppy farming, backyard breeders and pet obesity have all contributed to the condition of the joints too.