This strikes me as rather unprecedented timing of two in one week!
The first was a gent in Huddersfield who got in the way of his terrier being set on by a suspected "pit bull type".
Today it's been reported that a 3yr boy in Essex has died following an attack but the breed hasn't been mentioned yet.  Wow.
Could this be the chain of events necessary to instigate change?

I'm studying to become a qualified behaviourist, and it really nags away at me that there is just so much that every dog owner should know, but the volume is so great where do we even begin.  I do feel that something needs to change.

Licensed ownership - conditional on attending training classes, with a short course for the owner in the essentials of training principles, socialisation and aggression triggers

Breeders - how many breeders are doing socialisaton correctly? If their pups have only been socialised amongst one or two people, perhaps same sex, or no children before leaving home at 8 weeks of age, the damage is already half way done and if the new owners don't know to pick up the pieces urgently afterwards what chance have they got?

Training - if you follow the work of Dr Ian Dunbar, he suggests that any dog of any breed can be trained to be "bomb proof" with sound bite inhibition, and a tonne of classical conditioning especially around men and children acting crazy.  You just need to do a lot more of this with breeds that have a higher genetic weighting to aggression.

Trainers - perhaps it is time for the dog training industry in the UK to be licensed and regulated as they do in Germany. I shudder to think how many incompetent dog trainers there are out there still practising dis-proven dominance theory and the use of punishment in training as the first go-to.  Those methods come with a huge risk of fuelling fear and anxiety, which then lead to aggression as approximately 85% of aggression is fear driven.

Puppy Classes - if they don't include significant socialisation and classical conditioning routines to habituate puppies against all the things that could scare them to attack in later life, they are arguably failing everyone

Common aggression triggers - food guarding/aggression is entirely preventable with pre-emptive training during puppyhood and resolvable through counter conditioning in later life.  Collar grabs; another bite trigger and completely preventable by pre-emptive classical conditioning.  Every bite/attack trigger can be potentially conditioned against (with the only exceptions being a behaviour problem of medical cause, or breeds under genetic influence of unprovoked rage-syndrome)

Books and Media - so you've got a new dog owner perfectly willing to learn, but they buy the wrong book that teaches them all the wrong things in the wrong ways. Or the wrong TV program. It's hard to blame the owners who just don't know any better. They are willing to stand up to their responsibilities but end up being a case of the blind leading the blind.  This doesn't have an easy fix but recommended authors could be included within a licensing/education scheme.

If dog ownership is on the rise as I suspect it is, what chance do pet dog owners really have without some form of change?

> Breeders - how many breeders are doing socialisaton correctly? If their pups have only been socialised amongst one or two people, perhaps same sex, or no children before leaving home at 8 weeks of age, the damage is already half way done and if the new owners don't know to pick up the pieces urgently afterwards what chance have they got?<br />

As, sadly. the majority of puppies are not bred by good breeders, many commercially on puppy farms here and from abroad, or by totally ignorant people it is surprising and a testament to the adaptability of the dog we don't have more issues.

So much of temperament is inherited, and any breeder worthy of the name will have done age appropriate socialisation, and even with slightly inept owners largely succeed in producing mentally/temperamentally sound pups, as they selected for stable temperaments in the parents.

Having had personal experience with importing a puppy into 6 months quarantine and known several others, the lack of varied socialisation matters most for dogs who have not the advantage of a sound genetic temperament makeup.  All these dogs were especially good with people, other dogs and children, several despite having had little contact with them. All coped well with new situations, as show dogs exposed to a lot more than the average dog on top of life as companions.

> but they buy the wrong book that teaches them all the wrong things in the wrong ways. Or the wrong TV program. It's hard to blame the owners who just don't know any better.

In many cases of dog bite fatalities,the owners don't seem fall into that category. Bought on a whim, status symbols or personal guards.

There is a reason bully breeds tend to be the banned ones. And not because of the breed themselves but because of the likelihood of a certain type of person seeking one as a pet.

Now obviously a lot of perfectly sane, conscientious people own bully breeds too. But if you take a sample of THAT sort of owner, who wants a "scary" dog to swagger about with and impress or intimidate people with, they're not buying poodles or golden cockers or Parsons terriers. And once they get their puppy they don't train it properly, socialise it properly or plan for its future properly. I met a boxer/mastiff X this morning, who's walker was struggling to contain it as it snarled at my boy (from 50 feet away, and before my boy had noticed it). We were on a narrow woodland path and he dragged the dog right off the path so we could pass by. I said as I passed that he had his hands full and he said, very resignedly "it's my son's, he likes him like this". Says it all.

Travelling in London on the underground, I'll never forget seeing a man with a young staffie who was taking great delight in continually nudging it on it's leg. Every time the poor little pup settled, he nudged it, it must have been driving the dog mad. The guy could see I was looking at him and was expecting me to say something but I didn't as I was with my young daughter.

There's a guy who goes to the same vets as me, great big body builder type, he breeds non standard colour Bulldogs and French Bulldogs. He's another one that is horrible to his dogs, always dragging them around while he's waiting to see the vet. Continually breeds them and once I was in the vets when he dragged this poor heavily pregnant bulldog into the reception as she needed an emergency c-section. His friend actually said to him "I thought you said this was going to get us out of debt". When I saw my vet another day I had to ask how she had got on, turns out she had 10 puppies, all alive. I said I would have had to say something to the owner but my vet said he has to think of the dog's welfare at the time.

I could go on and on about bad owners and breeders, especially with the things I witnessed at Hendon PDSA clinic a few years ago, but in the end the only people who will be affected by any further Government legislation will be us, the responsible owners and breeders. Everyone should see the talk, "Man's Inhumanity", by the RSPCA vet who used to be on TV's Animal Hospital. It is a real eye opener on how dogs in that area are treated by their "owners". I witnessed grown men crying as it was playing.

I don't know what the solution is, the knee jerk Dangerous Dog Act that was rushed through certainly hasn't really made any difference.

I heard about this latest on the lunchtime news and thought I heard initially that it was a 'white Boxer'.   However the report later said the dog had been taken away and as yet, it's breed was unknown.

Unfortunately regardless of what legislation is put in place, as was always the case, the ONLY people who will conform are those who probably won't ever have a dog that's badly out of control.    Just as I suspect is the case with microchipping - too many responsible owners get this done, while many others don't bother - and even if their dogs are picked up and found not to be chipped, they are given a warning and x-number of days to get it done.   Does anybody THEN check to see if it has???

I have no answers to any of this and indeed, don't yet know the circumstances with this latest either.   There's no doubt that breeders are responsible for where they place the puppies they breed, but how is that 'policed'?   As for having the homes of all new owners checked first ..... again by whom and at what cost!!

I guess we can only hope that education will help, but in general British people don't like to be told..... as was mentioned on another thread recently!  They tend to think they know it all, until terrible incidents like this happen. And then it's never the owner's fault - always the dog.

So sad that another kiddie has to die.

> Training - if you for Ian llow the work of Dr Ian Dunbar, he suggests that any dog of any breed can be trained to be "bomb proof" with sound bite inhibition, and a tonne of classical conditioning especially around men and children acting crazy.  You just need to do a lot more of this with breeds that have a higher genetic weighting to aggression.<br />

I'm a huge fan of Dr Ian Dunbar.  But I do feel that you're preaching to the converted on this site!    Welcome by the way.

CD has members with a huge amount of commitment to rearing well socialised puppies.  I have a breed that people who generalise think are yappy, snappy dogs.  But they get treated the same as my Border Collie.  And I am proud that several of my pups have been passed as PAT dogs.  Not a snappy yappy in sight.

I know someone will think it isn't very PC for me to say that members of some FB dog forums may well benefit from your help. 

Agree 100%

members of some FB dog forums may well benefit from your help.
Not this one I hope ??

I have a read of some of them at various times and end up wanting to suggest that they go to toys r us for their puppy

I think it was Robert Killick - some years back - did point out that more children were seriously injured or killed by their parents than by dogs every year.

Bearing this in mind I do not remember The Powers proposing a 'dangerous people' act and insist on neutering

ps - I hope you are feeling a bit better now Jean

apparently the dog that killed the little boy is an American Bulldog that the owners had recently got.
thats whats being said online at any rate.
I do not understand why anyone would buy a large adult dog when they have small children. a puppy of a softer breed yes-an adult status breed dog never.  There is too much trading of these dogs online, go on any selling page and there they are- large adult status dogs cheaply being sold on -often sold on repeatedly. I often see adverts that say the owner has only had dog a few days but its not working out and needs to be sold again.  these are not going to be stable dogs, poorly bred, badly reared then passed around like a toy

Thank you for the welcome.  Sorry I didn't mean to come across as preaching, I've been a lurker on here for ages and it just struck me as an excellent community to discuss the pro's and con's of whether legislation has something to offer.  Every time there is an incident the subject of licensing comes back in the media, and I wonder if two incidents in one week could be the straw that breaks the camels back. I could see a lot of good in that if done right, but as others have rightly said, the bad apples will just slip through the net.

It's a shame we never get the follow up facts from the news, but is it fair to put it all down to chavvy owners with status/bully dogs?  I'm sure that explains some, but I do give benefit of doubt to the "misadventure" of some owners in need of a helping hand in terms of education, or damage done by dodgy trainers.

Ok, a sample size of one means nothing.  But I have a friend with a GSD.  My friend is no chav, earns more than me, yet he just likes GSDs.
Unfortunately his source of education was a certain TV personality, and his books. He didn't understand the importance of socialisation, he went to a puppy class with a trainer practising alpha rolls whom earns clients with his "35yrs experience". He had no reason to question any of it. Then he moved onto some 1-2-1 sessions with a behaviourist, no not a real one, just a trainer bigging themselves up. The end result is a basket case of a dog, a stressed out neurotic mess, who's reactive to just about anything. Wrong place wrong situation that dog could be another statistic waiting to happen, but my friend didn't really do anything wrong, or wanted his dog to be like that, he just fell victim to the wrong education and the wrong trainers.  I can't help but wonder how many other folk out there who fall into that category!  I could certainly see how licensing with some education thrown in could put those trainers out of business, or have been wholly avoided by regulation of dog training in the UK.

"the subject of licensing comes back in the media"

To be honest compulsory microchipping of all dogs over 8 weeks old does amount to licensing, as the identity and keepership of every dog should be known.

In all these fatal incidents the identity of dog and owner has not been in doubt so how would licensing (of the dog which is already detailed through chip) stop any of it?

And yes more people are killed by cows (attacked), horses (assume accidentally) and of course people each year than by dogs.

Possibly not all chavvy owners are responsible for the dangerous dogs, but a high proportion are clearly responsible for the actual attacks and deaths. I bet your friend doesn't leave his neurotic and reactive dog to play alone with toddlers, for instance? Or walk it off lead in busier areas?  There is a border collie near me, with odd colouring (merle with mismatched eyes? I don't really know the ins and outs, though a 3rd party has told me it's "got that crazy gene"). The dog is very reactive and dog-aggressive, as well as people-aggressive with children. It's owner got it as a rescue, walks it always on lead and muzzled in quiet areas and in peaceful times, and is a thoroughly nice guy giving a very difficult dog a happy life and preventing it from harming anyone. In another home it could easily kill or seriously injure.

The dominance ideas are awful and so dangerous. A neighbour looks after a pom/huskie cross which is reactive and dog aggressive and guards everything and anything. They are consulting someone who has told them to stand up and snarl loudly whenever the dog barks or growls. I tried to tell them how good our dog training club (all positive reinforcement) methods are and was told 'this guy has 25 years experience!'. Poor dog. It's been a bad idea from the start, when I met it and it was 4 months old and I was told with great authority it would get no bigger "they're like mini huskies". Needless to say, it got a LOT bigger.

> a pom/huskie cross

My mind totally boggles at who this cross would be physically possible; and if it is even true or just a way of trying to convince buyers the dog will be small?

Brainless, Google [admin note: affix deleted. Best not give them free advertising!] and you will be amazed at the number being bred. Price, up to £2500!

That price has increased since I first heard of them :( can't imagine the potential problems and yes they exist brainless and are popular unfortunately.

I have seen the adverts I just find it hard to believe a real pom could be one of the parents.

I was enthusiastically reassured that "the husky is the bitch and they just back her up against the sofa so he can reach". Which I wouldn't have believed had I not learned that my friend's corgi's father had to stand on phone books to achieve the necessary...And that was with another corgi!

I didn't realise this word was an affix, more a designer contraction - like Cockerpoo.

An affix ? Really ? I agree it's used just like cockerpoo in other places .someone has managed to have it as an affix ?

They are definitely possible, and quite popular at the moment.  Part of the tagline is that they look like miniature huskies and some certainly do - but a lot do not stay pom sized!

I think a lot of people are in for a surprise as they have become readily available and as u say often don't stay tiny as expected.goodness knows about coat either. I spoke to someone for quite a while who a 6 month old that at that point was everything she wanted. Know idea how it was when it became adult and xwrtainly won't breed true

> members of some FB dog forums may well benefit from your help

Nope, I didn't mean this one.  Just FB.  I've never looked (don't like FB, but people tell me that there are some dog forums on there that are full of canine ignorance.)

Thanks, will be seeing hip surgeon on 31st.  He's the best, but I'm not looking forward to what he may tell me.  I don't want it to delay my spinal surgery.

> they just back her up against the sofa so he can reach". Which I wouldn't have believed

Believe it!  I have a bitch who is large for the breed.  I took her to a particularly small stud dog.  Now I agree that perhaps I do own a trollop.  But she heaved him up onto her back and the tie took place without his feet touching the ground.  When he started to turn I just got down on the floor and held him in the air until she released him.  This is in no way unusual.

This one looks like a hugely oversized pom and acts like a husky. Personally though I'm sure they're nice enough in their own way I cannot understand why anyone would want a husky or a husky cross. To me they seem to be disinterested in humans, immensely hard to train and need to run thirty miles a day to stay sane. Can't see that fitting around the school run...

Jean I'm afraid this made me blurt out a big laugh. The whole enterprise is ridiculous, for basically all mammals.

> this made me blurt out a big laugh

That wasn't the best of it.  I had put a crate in the car with a lovely cushion inside.  I knew that I would be returning home on B roads and there would be twists and turns.  I checked my mirror to  make sure she was ok.  OK!  She was laid back on the cushion with a smile on her face.  I swear I heard her say all I need now is a ciggie.

> To me they seem to be disinterested in humans

I don't find that at all, I find them intensely affectionate to the point of being OTT and giddy about meeting new people!  The rest of it though, absolutely   Not my kind of thing, and I did research huskies and malamutes for a few years before I got my first dog (who ended up being a dobermann).

I should say my main knowledge of the breed comes via a friend who breeds and races them. They live in kennels (whelping times aside) which probably enhances the "we're the dogs, you're the people" element.

There was a husky/akita X in my puppy class, briefly. It started growling nervously at the other puppies in the third class. They hit and chastised it for growling every time (the trainer couldn't see this, I did let her know later) and then never came back to class. I think about it a lot as its a local class so I'm likely to meet it again. I hope they work on its confidence instead of teaching to shut off its early warning system :(

Ah yes, that would make a big difference.  And reminds me of such a kennel I visited up in the cairngorms, the dogs there were not interested.  All the ones I've met have been pets - one group were racers too, but lived indoors.  All of those were too friendly, total softies and all the pet ones I've met have been the same.

These dogs were definitely good natured and friendly, but in a very "now I have met you, my acknowledged equal, I am going to go off over there and Be A Dog. I will regard your commands as advice". The bitches were slightly better than the dogs, but only slightly!

I've met many dogs like that only put up with humans or even ignore them and dog off to-do their own thing .i find gsd including my own

as a breed are reserved until proper introductions and even then can be in bothered with humans. Unless it's there own humans.  With husky I think u are right with the commands as advice or so I have heard

I've met many dogs like that only put up with humans or even ignore them and dog off to-do their own thing .i find gsd including my own

as a breed are reserved until proper introductions and even then can be in bothered with humans. Unless it's there own humans.  With husky I think u are right with the commands as advice or so I have heard

It makes sense with GSD's and husky's too really, dogs bred to spend stretches of time thinking for themselves (guarding stock) or work as part of a doggy team (pulling a sled). I got the distinct impression that they were okay with the first one or two commands but after that they were wishing you'd just let them get on with it. They were fab with a sled and were easily steered with a Haa or Gee, but weren't at all interested in being recalled or asked to sit or wait etc.

What is it the say about throwing balls for husky s? They look at you as if to say so u think i am thatt stupid ? U threw it you get it !!

> I will regard your commands as advice".

Love it, I think that goes more most spitz, fits mine, they definitely consider themselves your equals, your partners/companions never servants.

(don't like FB, but people tell me that there are some dog forums on there that are full of canine ignorance.)

For me, that is the quote of the decade. How true. I love it, thank you.

> Unless it's there own humans.

Total one-person dogs, GSDs.  I've met plenty that have been friendly and plenty that were reserved, but absolutely every one of them had their chosen human and that was that!

Agree with some of your comments, but, you are saying that puppies should be socialised with children. This could happen in Eutopia, however not all reputable breeders have children, myself included. Should we then be barred from breeding because of age ( my children are adult and live 300 miles away )  or infertility?  I certainly would not bring in outsiders to socialise with my puppies because of the risk of infection. I have to say that in the years that I have been breeding,  none of my puppy buyers have had a problem with temperament .

Puppies can be socialised with children in their new homes though. If you live rurally and buy a puppy from a breeder in a city then you'd not expect it to be socialised with horses or cows already, you'd do it yourself. So a breeder who really doesn't know any children at all who can be trusted not to tramp infection in can easily do a sheet for their puppies new owners saying that the puppies have not met children and need to do safely and at the earliest opportunity.

Personally I wouldn't buy a puppy from a breeder who didn't socialise their puppies to children, but then I have three young children.

My puppy buyers have a 19 page info leaflet with everything they would wish to know about the breed and everything else, including how to introduce their puppies to youngsters and the rules they need to follow rearding children. It is impossible to introduce 8 week old puppies to every incident they will be subject to in their lives. My concern would be the expectation that an 8 week old puppy is used to everything, that will never happen. Happy that you have the right puppy for you poodlenoodle, but you expectations a little idealalistic.

The breeder of my dog didn't have young children, their daughter was about 15 when the puppies were born. We don't have young children in the family either, yet my dog is very good with small children and seems attracted to them and will happily welcome them over to stroke her. My take on this is that she was bred to have a good temperament, not just with other dogs but with all humans whatever their age.

Which expectation of mine is idealistic?

I don't have children nor to I even like kids (can't stand them) but I've arranged to have some people I know bring their kids to come and meet the puppies when they are old enough, probably around 6 weeks age.

I have re read twice and can only assume my expectation that the breeder socialise their puppies with children was the idealistic one.

In looking at two different breeds and speaking to multiple breeders I didn't find anyone who didn't do this (though my criteria was "will they meet children at all before leaving your home?" I certainly was not expecting daily contact or anything). In fact even the worst of the BYB's I stumbled across socialised to children (their own).

Perhaps it is incredibly idealistic of me, but two of my three children have autism. The youngest especially is quite badly affected by this. So I felt it would be very unkind to a puppy to meet my son as the first ever child it had met! My breeder had a teenager at home and a visiting infant grandchild, and that was perfectly adequate to me.

Last night my son had a ninety minute meltdown at 2am, during which he screamed continuously, scratched, pinched, hit and bit me and my husband. The puppy, who turned 5 months today, snored throughout in his crate right next to it. I was very selective. I would think every breeder would hope their puppy owners are just as selective, of course with their own personal criteria.

I got my first pup from breeder who had a small child. I have an autistic child who has melt downs too but because temperament was paramount. My bitch is 6yrs now and is the only one of my dogs that is allowed to sit with my son while in a melt down other 3 dogs give a wide berth. He will punch, kick and throw things and bite but Tilly is never his target.
Nessa

I don't have kids and not sure I want them but what I did arrange once the pups were old enough is to have friends over with their children to socialise with them. All varying ages from babies to teenagers. The one thing they didn't see because I'm rural.is  much traffic. On a busy day it can be heard.  They saw horses and cattle and cats and tractors etc. I also played the sounds cd, not sure if it's any good.
We had fireworks going off, gun shots. Thunderstorms. Hoovers etc.
But yes I knew that I wanted the pups to be used to kids so I got kids to come and be around them.

Funny, my boy came from a rural spot and was scared of heavy traffic when he came to us. But daily walks out in the pram with lots of sausage offered near noisy roads soon sorted him out. In fact he still looks optimistic whenever he sees a lorry or a bus because generally he has found in life that those mean someone is about to splodge some primula into his gob.

I think socialising is immensely important, immensely. But I also think the conscientious owner can do a very decent job according to their own needs. Having two or three times met a child in happy circumstances before 12 or so weeks would probably enough for a puppy that was going to live in a home with no children and never be expected to play with any, especially from a stoic even-tempered breed.

>Agree with some of your comments, but, you are saying that puppies should be socialised with children.

I don't have young children, but I know people who do, and I invite them to come round and visit. Also Youtube has many sound-effects that you can play to puppies - fireworks and thunder as well as many of children's playground noise - so that puppies can at least get used to the sound of children's voices.

That all 8 week old puppies are "used" to different scenarios, poodlenoodle. Sorry but a puppy at that age has the concentration span of a gnat. They may realise that a certain situation is not threatening due to previous exposure, but the expectation that puppies should be used to children is somewhat idealistic. It is up to the new owner to continually expose their new puppies to different scenarios so as to get them used to them. A breeder can only do so much we have a very short time span (about 4 weeks) to socialise the wee babies, before they go to their new families.