I have just heard - via a friend of mine who is a trainer - that one of my new puppy buyers, who bought a pup from us on Monday (two days ago), have also purchased a springer puppy this week!!!!  So they have now TWO puppies (both very active gundog breeds).

They filled out a lengthy questionnaire, and they spoke to us for 2 hours in person on Sunday night - and made no mention of this. 

I feel totally ******, there is no way I would have sold a puppy to anyone planning on getting another puppy and the fact that they have never mentioned this to us, says that they know full well that we would not!!!  If they had even mentioned it whilst they were here - despite having taken a ferry to get here - I'd have refused to sell them the pup.

I am, of course, going to suggest that they return the puppy to us for a full refund and have send them lots of links about littermate syndrome etc, but beyond that is there anything I can do?? The papers are all signed and in their possession when they collected the pup.  I think they will ignore me and refuse to...

I feel really sick, and scared and shaky, like I've been betrayed by people I trusted.  They seemed really really nice, one of our best homes.  There is no way any amount of vetting would have revealed this, if they intended to deceive us in this way. 

(I know I said I was leaving the forum as the pups had all gone, but this is a crisis relating to the litter, so have popped in one last time!!)

Are they first time dog owners or are they experienced? If the latter then they may well be up to caring and training two puppies.

Really sorry to hear this, so disappointing when you approved them so carefully, I suppose it shows, sadly that sometimes despite best efforts you can't know if buyers are telling you all their circumstances. They didn't tell you lies I suppose and it doesn't mean that they won't look after both their pups and they may have been well aware that you wouldn't have sold to them if they said they were planning on having two. It may work out fine if they take the time to train the puppies separately and behave sensibly with them, after all you thought they were good prospective owners and you are probably right.

I don't think you can realistically ask for the puppy back but maybe they will take good advice from you and you can help them make an excellent job of their double handful.

I just don't think either puppy is going to fulfill their potential and there are some quite worrying issues which can arise, behaviorally - I see dogs with litter mate syndrome as a behaviorist and it's awful...

And they did lie - by omission - and willfully deceived.

I will definitely be asking for the pup back for a full refund - they will probably refuse, but I have to ask.

I do know the trainer who is doing a 1-2-1 with them tomorrow and she is also going to suggest this.

I feel both sick and angry.

Did they say they were getting your puppy just as a pet, or are they planning to work it? It could be that they're going to bring the puppies up more separately than most; after all, the two breeds work very differently and so will get different training. Perhaps one is to be more 'mum's' dog and one 'dad's'. I think in your position I'd ring them up ostensibly to find out how your puppy's settling in, and see what you can find out about this other puppy. Other than that I don't think there's anything you can do; they've paid for the puppy so now only they have any control of it. Bettr to keepon good terms with them and stay in contact with your pup (and be there to pick up the pieces if things go wrong) than to alienate them and never hear anything more about your beloved pup.

try to calm down a bit-its not the end of the world.rather than trying to make enemies out of them try and be there for them if they ever need a hand.i breed ***** and at moment i have 2 puppies 4 months old almost who im running on one i bred and the other one i bought in.mine live in a pack but learn from the pack toileting and stuff.they do things seperate aswell.with time dedication and patience it is possible to bring 2 pups up togehter i have done it 4 times now.

Caution, the great British public don't like being told what to do.

Horrible situation, softly softly catchy monkey.

Good Luck, diplomacy isn't one of my strengths but they have your puppy legally and you risk no contact FOREVER.

Many years ago a friend and breeder I had bought a GSD pup off was concerned when she sold two pups from another litter and then realised the people were about to move in together. She warned them of possible problems with litter mates but they brought them to training classes and worked hard to get the pups to interact more with the humans. They did very well, both obedience trained. In fact the bitch pup was doing very well moving up through the classes and was only prevented from progressing further because the owner started to limp. The dog had a problem with a shoulder (can't remember what now) and so could not do the precision heal work required for competition but was still very well trained.
More recently I now of a couple having pups the same age and training them for agility and seem to be fine. So if the owners are prepared to put in the work there could well be no problem. Encouragement to train would be better than losing touch by antagonising them.

This is why I insist that my puppy buyers visit me before any litter is born and then visit at 4 weeks and 6 weeks before pups leave at 8 weeks. But what is done is done. Are they experienced gun dog owners as you say they are one of your best homes? Would it not be better for your friend to build a relationship with them to ensure both pups are given the correct training. I hope that the new owners don't get annoyed with her contacting you. What will you do if they decide to return the Springer rather than your puppy? A situation that needs to now be handled very carefully as they could just tell you to stuff it and refuse to talk to you any more.

Grit your teeth and play nice.  If you go in guns blazing now, chances are they will cut you off completely.  Better to smile and nod and help them out, and stay in their good books so that if littermate syndrome does indeed become a problem, you can help later on down the line if your pup needs to be rehomed.  I know it's frustrating, believe me I see enough situations like this being a behaviourist myself but you will get much, much further being nice and helping than you ever will any other way.

Also, if they seemed like an excellent home in all other ways, they may well do a good job with both pups.  LS is not guaranteed.  My first two dogs (different breeds) were bought as pups 2.5 months apart, and for their first 3 years, I did everything separately.  They worked out brilliantly.  I know others who have done the same with full littermates.  It can be done!

> I am, of course, going to suggest that they return the puppy to us for a full refund and have send them lots of links about littermate syndrome etc, but beyond that is there anything I can do??

Afraid not, in the eyes of the law once sold the pup is theirs to do with as they please. With this in mind I'd be very careful with how you react to this with them. As if you go in all guns blazing or come off as annoyed you will likley just lose all contact with them and the puppy. Have you spoken to them about why they got a second puppy as It could be innocent on their part (pup needed a home no one would take it ect) and about how they plan to raise two together.

Are they a working home or at least experanced? If so it could work fine as long as they know the extra work they will need to put in.

There is nothing you can do, both of you have fulfilled the contract. They bought, you sold, money changed hands and paperwork handed over.

If they're getting a trainer involved then surely that is a possible good sign?

By the way, did I see you took the pups to the beach, across rocky ground? Just that I wouldn't have, far too much danger there! I wouldn't have been a happy camper if you took a pup due to be handed over to me there.

Also, you flounce off, say you're going, because you were criticised for leaching information off all the decent care worn breeders on here. yet here you are back again, after more info? As soon as there is something you want help with back you come...???

Ok, thanks all. Bye again.  I don't think I can stick it out here after all!!

Well I will post, because maybe you will read anyway.

Deep breaths. I sense your hurt and dismay, and though the reasons for not wanting your pups to go to a home with another pup in it are valid to a degree, I also sense the level of upset is more about the betrayal by the humans than the welfare of the puppies.

From the pup's point of view, s/he has gone to a home which you felt was experienced and good. I doubt you were wrong. The fact that they want two pups together doesn't mean they aren't experienced or a good home, it means they don't share YOUR experiences and feelings about that. As a teenager I rode horses belonging to a gillie who had always 7-10 working gundogs, spaniels, labs, the odd flatcoat. He ALWAYS bought two pups, from different litters, at a time, as he regarded puppy raising as hard work and liked to halve the time it took by doubling up. Each puppy was assigned to an older mentor within the pack (who they stayed, slept and worked with), and no behavioural problems resulted from the doubling up. As a behaviourist you will see all the times this didn't work out, but NOT the many times it did.

Relatives of mine bought two littermates a number of years ago, border terriers. My relatives are very experienced dog owners, having had dogs rather than children for the past 40 years, but they do not work, show or compete their dogs, they are pet owners. The dogs are fab little dogs, nicely trained, well-behaved and easy to live with. My relatives applied common sense only, not consulting a behaviourist or anything.

So I think the puppy is unlikely to suffer the dire consequences you are worried about. If this had been one of the borderline homes, that you'd been unsure about even sending a pup there, then yes, there'd be more cause for worry. The fact that these people have already consulted a behaviourist speaks really well of them!

But then back to you. You have poured lots and lots of energy and time into getting the homes you are sending these puppies out to. And of course it is really painful to feel that the hours you spent doing so were "wasted" when one of the homes you felt best about turns out to be not as you thought! You're human, betrayal hurts, as does humiliation and it IS a bit humiliating to feel that these people could hoodwink you out of a puppy. And added to all that this is the first litter from your girl, it's been a raw journey for you at times and a steep learning curve. You wanted the absolute best, gold standard homes for your puppies and its horrible to feel you may not have secured that for them. So I think your emotions are running high and no wonder.

Hopefully things will look better tomorrow. I'm sending you an electronic hug, for what it's worth. ((((((((((((squeeze)))))))))))))

good bye!

> I don't think I can stick it out here after all!!

Accept the good , ignore the bad

As a behaviourist you will see all the times this didn't work out, but NOT the many times it did.

Its a bit like working in A&E and thinking that driving a car is far too risky and anyone getting on a motorbike must be suicidal.

I've read plenty of horror stories regarding two pups but in real life only come across good examples of siblings raised together.

Think about all the people you have helped over the years and how much experience they had before taking on two pups. Personally I wouldn't take on two puppies unless I had a partner with plenty of experience and was as committed as me.

Just to add to all this, I'd go with those who suggest instead of pitching in and asking them to return your puppy, which I seriously doubt they will - after all they were just 'economical with the truth' re buying another puppy - you see how things work out and be there IF it does all go pear-shaped.   Better that than find it does and because you had asked for the puppy back, they don't come back to you!   It would be far worse if they home your puppy somewhere else and you don't know about it!    Been there, done that and with some body I trusted although after they'd gone overseas, I was told. 

Some people can deal with two puppies, if they are prepared to put in the work.   It does help if they are experienced however.  

Fact is, people wanting anything, not just puppies, will tell what they know people want to hear in order to get their hands on it.   Witness a family who visited the breeder of my foundation bitch.   All seemed really good but just as they'd left, she found they'd left something behind, rushed to the gate, to see them putting her precious puppy in the boot of the car, ALONG WITH LOADS OF OTHER PUPPIES.    Had she not gone out there, she'd never had known.   Needless to say the puppy came back and money was refunded!!   I don't know how you avoid these kinds of situations though.   There has to be some trust!!

I totally agree with Barbara (Brainless) on this and when I first read your post thought you had a bit of a cheek coming back on here after you'd said you were leaving the forum. What exactly did you want all of us to say?? From a previous thread posted before your litter was born, you knew that most of us do all our vetting of puppy buyers before even thinking of mating our girls and most expect to meet people before the litter is on the ground.

If you don't want to read our opinions, why air your dirty laundry on a public forum?? This situation is something I'd be discussing with my friends in the breed, especially the stud dog owner as they have a vested interest in the puppies, not on here.

What constitutes the 'bad' Barbara?
Those who give their experiences but not what the OP wants to hear? I'm finding this whole situation bizarre, have to say.

Do people allow others to use them like this in 'real' life?

I think the best thing to be done here is to speak with the family and ask why they have decided to take on two very different breeds together. If they really feel they can train and raise both to their full potential then you will have to be supportive of that. Sadly, you have exchanged money and paperwork so they don't have to keep in touch with you if thy do not choose to.

I do however, feel a little saddened Rabid as I stuck by you and defended your actions on the forum but you seem to feel that everyone is spying on you or has a personal vendetta against you and your practices. This really isn't the case. There is an over reaction, you threaten to leave and then do not like the responses you get. People here have a vast amount of knowledge than you or I and although we may not agree with how everyone rears their litters and the process - we can be courteous and thank then for their free input. They do not have to help but they choose to.

Try not to burn your bridges - life has a way of turning round and throwing a curve ball. God forbid it never happens, but should advice be required - this really is one of the best places to ask...

but you seem to feel that everyone is spying on you or has

not everyone but a lot of people have worked out who the op is and found them on facebook. eg Beech and training hall.

People are nosey and as I've said before thanks to your unusual location and overseas mating, people in your breed would know who you were.

Maybe give it a few months and comeback as another user ?

There's really no need to do that, a change in attitude would be a better option...

I'm happy posting here as long its anonymous.

I wouldn't be happy slating my puppies new owners, (I haven't all perfect SO FAR).

Lots of questions might go un-asked if people had real names attached.

I seem to have rubbed some up the wrong way, don't want some sad troll tracking me down who has nothing better to do.  Lots of strange people on the internet, most are harmless but after one border line stalker in real life, I prefer anonymous thanks.

Its not a Maths forum so different answers are possible and people will disagree. I'm right you are wrong, lalala I'm not listening.

"Do people allow others to use them like this in 'real' life? "

Well I suppose I do, after all sharing advice and experience costs me nothing, and people can take it or leave it.

It's how I was brought up, to help where I can.

"What constitutes the 'bad' "Barbara?"

It means not be over sensitive to negative posts, it's life that not everyone will agree.

Like with dog training in the main ignore the bad and encourage the good.

I prefer to stay anonymous and even sign PMs with just my initial - it is nothing personal against other members or being rude on purpose but I have always been raised to live with boundaries - i.e. work relationships stay at work, personal problems stay at home etc. I am trying to change but it will take time. The anonymity has helped me to talk about a lot of things I wouldn't have had the courage to do so (depression, self harming, chocolate teapot husband - it's not all doom and gloom!) but I have very rarely spoken out or been rude to anyone. If someone says something I don't like - I accept that I may not agree with everyone's opinion and that they have a right to say as they feel.

I am sorry things have turned out this way - I did try to calm the waters the first time but then I had thought emotions were running high. There have been other episodes but I chose not to say anything. Now however, I think I have said how I feel and leave it up to Rabid to decide whether she wishes to stay or go.

It's not fair on the people trying to to be supportive and giving free advice to have it practically thrown back at them whether directly or indirectly.

> I think the best thing to be done here is to speak with the family and ask why they have decided to take on two very different breeds together

I'm wondering as its another gundog breed if this is a working home (am I remembering right they said they had some working homes?) It could be they plan to work the two breeds maby. Although rapid never answered my question about It so just guessing.

> not everyone but a lot of people have worked out who the op is and found them on facebook. eg Beech and training hall.

To be honist I'd not be suprised people wanted to check out the litter and see what the pups are up to and how it was going as after all the op started so many threads about this breeding/litter and got so much advice isn't it only natural for people to want to see haw it was turning out? When someone just asks one to two question people don't get as invested as when lots of questions are asked.

When we advertise ourselves people will find us, if you don't want that don't put info out there. I'd have no problem with people on here finding my website and following it or questioning how I was doing something, if I felt what I was doing was right I'd explain why and carry on doing my plan.

> The anonymity has helped me to talk about a lot of things I wouldn't have had the courage to do

I agree wholeheartedly.  Sometimes I've only been too grateful to have the support of my CD friends.  While I fully appreciate that this is a dog forum there have been a few times that it has been a relief to offload non dog related stuff and this forum has been there for me.

In defence of some of our very experienced members, I've seen where they have given the same advice over, and over, and over again.  If it is thrown in their faces it isn't easy. 

I know there have been times that I've tried to help with knowledge of toy breed whelpings.  Urging over and over that a vet visit is urgent.  When 3 days later a C-section is carried out on a worn out bitch with dead puppies I know that I do get angry that the bitch has suffered when it wasn't necessary, and often because the owner was trying to avoid a vet bill.  It's then that I promise to myself that I will never try to help again.

I think the issue here is that we all treat each other like extended family and even though I am relatively new compared to most, I feel like I have been accepted and could one day become a valued member of the group. I know some people are one time posters and soon disappear into the interweb but some of us like it here and want to try and stay :)

It is sad when after getting to know members (as well as one can in this sort of setting) their advice and well meaning comments are misunderstood. Especially, as you say, when they are giving the same advice week in week out without complaint AND for free! If this was a solicitor's office the money made would be more than all MP's expense accounts!  Think Dog law advice and their advice number and I'm sure you'll understand. I for one will always ask, listen, thank and then do the best I can with the advice given. It's advice - not force fed opinion...

Well, I  must in in a minority of one here because I believe that anonymity is behind a lot of problems on forums such as this, blogs etc etc. People would be far more sensitive and accountable, perhaps, if their identity was made known to all. I accept that I was guilty a few months ago of upsetting a forum member and was suitably admonished.
Yes, it can be a fairly simple matter to identify forum members if they are breeders, but not all are breeders on this forum.  The misery that can be caused by trolls, even lightweight ones,  is immeasurable.
I feel really sorry for Rabid and do not understand why so many forum members seem to have taken against her. I hope she stays on the forum. She has been an established member for a long time and has made important contributions.

> I feel really sorry for Rabid and do not understand why so many forum members seem to have taken against her.

You've never seen me give her any grief at all, so question you replying to me Jan.

I think Jan may have simply clicked the post reply button at the end of your response.

Can I also add, that I have been very supportive and we have even exchanged PMs - I just think that many members here are upset with the fact that they give advice but she very clearly says she doesn't want to be here....

>Well, I  must be in a minority of one here because I believe that anonymity is behind a lot of problems on forums such as this, blogs etc etc. People would be far more sensitive and accountable, perhaps, if their identity was made known to all.

Hi Jan.  I agree.  There is something either arrogant or cowardly or both about anonymity:  "I'm gonna say this, especially since you don't know who I am!!!  So THERE!"  Even though I get the reason for it, I find it questionable.

Sorry Jean, I just clicked on the last post. Stupid of me.
x

To me the problem isn't anonymity or lack of it but the blurred lines regarding it.

People post here, on an anonymous basis as that is how the forum is set up, to ask for advice. I have had some excellent advice here based on what I have shared, but advice based not on what I have shared but in judgements about me made by trawling the internet to find out who I am and after having a good gawk at every other post I've made elsewhere would not be gratefully received.

Being anonymous one's self while simultaneously removing the feeling of anonymity from another by posting on here things found elsewhere is pretty low.