Still undecided whether I should breed from my bitch or not. Some basic questions I would really appreciate your answers to. Ready? Here goes!

1. Should I go back to the breeder I got my girl from, or go to a different breeder?

2. Out of 14 dogs on a 3 generation pedigree, is it ok for a bitch & dog to share 7 or them (or more??). Surely the fewer shared ancestors, the better?

3. How old is too old for a stud dog?

4. How do I approach owners of a stud dog? I can't just send an email and say "I've got a girl, you've got a boy... it takes two to tango!"

The questions you should ask yourself:-
Is she a good example of the breed, in type and temperament
Have you had relevant health tests done
Does she have a breeding restriction placed on her
If you have never bred before, are you aware of what's involved, the time, stress and money involved plus finding the best possible homes for the puppies.

I hope you are still in contact with your breeder and they will be able to advise you

Others will have their thoughts too, these are my initial ones

Frequently Asked Questions Forum:  Should I Breed From My Pet Bitch

Yes, she is a perfect example of the breed. Her temperament is near perfect, she was slightly timid as a puppy but has blossomed lately.

No health tests as yet but I would do so before breeding from her. She would have to test clear for eyes & have low hip & elbow scores.

No breeding restrictions.

Yes, I am aware of what is involved & I'm am not ready to breed from her yet. Just thinking about the future - if I decide not to breed, I will have her desexed by the end of the year.

Yes, I am in contact with the breeder but not on a regular basis.

To have the best results you need to be familiar with the bloodlines behind your bitch and any dog you choose to use.

This is why it is advised to have a mentor in the breed, someone who has this knowledge while you do not yet have it, so you can learn and gain knowledge.

A pedigree to a knowledgeable breeder is not just a collection of names, they should personally know most of the first few generations in the pedigree personally, and have photographic etc. knowledge much further.

This is usually but not always the breeder of your bitch.  could be the owner of her sire or both.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/Default.aspx here you can click on breeding coefficient of individual dog to determine how inbred your bitch is.  You should aim in a litter to be under the breed average but certainly aim for under 5%.

You will need to attend shows, at championship level (or Trials if working lines) to see representative examples of your breed, show your bitch for preference too, to gauge how she compares with her peers.

You should be able to see which stud dogs you like and what they have produced to bitches of similar type or pedigree to yours.

Yes, she is a perfect example of the breed.

A Champion then. In which case you will already know stud dog owners.

I'm sorry but I'm not buying into this either, like others. This smells of either an anti pedigree dog breeders article OR TV programme.

if I decide not to breed, I will have her desexed by the end of the year.

Obviously your only dog knowledge comes off the internet and clearly you have stumbled across American websites. I would bet anything you do not even own a dog.

Sorry just looked at your profile and saw that you are in Australia, your bitches breeder should be your first port of call, and your kennel club hopefully has similar resources to help you. http://ankc.org.au/

Goldmali, Well thanks very much for being so trusting.

I'll try to remember never to ask simple questions of supposedly knowledgeable people about breeding a vulnerable native breed.

Which breed is it, does it have a breed club over there if so you should join, any serious breeder will be a member of their breed club/s as that is where a lot of resources and knowledge/information is shared.

Well I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt, purely because I'm putting off housework and to respond would give me five more minutes excuse...

I would get in touch with your breeder.

I sympathise with the asker, because I own a beautiful dog who was deliberately and conscientiously bred from health tested parents BUT who actually doesn't meet KC breed standard due to the colour of his coat. So if I decided to breed it couldn't be based on him being a champion. Possibly he will excel at a discipline and give further justification but it's not like we're training hard to do that. On the other hand because he's a "special colour" who DOES come from health tested lines with sound temperaments perhaps it would be a shame, assuming his health testing showed good results, to deprive future puppies of his genetics. People who want dogs will get them, it would be better for any future parti poodles to be born from health tested parents from known, tested, healthy lines with good temperaments than untested puppy farm parents who just happen to be the same colour.

So I would say you should do what I would/will do - talk to the dog's breeder. They will be able to assess your girl against previous and current generations and advise you on how to proceed.

Brainless, thanks for your help. I would go back to her breeder, only I don't particularly want to use one of their stud dogs as there aren't many of this breed around, so the puppies would be really inbred. If I go to a different kennel I have a better chance of a stud dog that doesn't share as many recent ancestors. But I know you're more experienced then me, so if you really recommend going back to the breeder, I'll look into it :)

The ANKC is the national governing body of pedigree dogs, but everything is dealt with through state controlling bodies (Dogs NSW, Dogs Victoria, etc). No breed club as there are only 200-300 in the country.

> only I don't particularly want to use one of their stud dogs

Why do you think they would want you to use one of their own dogs, it is rare that unless the kennel is large with several separate bloodlines that they would have the best match for your bitch.

If they are only interested in you using their stud then I'd go elsewhere.

Are both your bitches parents from the same breeding/kennel name.

If they are a reputable breeder they should be looking at the welfare of the breed when choosing studs for their bitches not potential stud fees.

Use this tool  http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/ to calculate your bitches inbreeding coefficient, and see how inbred she is, that should tell you if you need to go right out or you can sue a dog with relatives in common, you can then also use the tool to put in pedigrees of potential puppies for various stud dogs.

You really do need to attend some shows/trials to see what dogs are out there.

If you don't have an official breed club do they have any facebook groups like in my own breed that hasn't had a national breed club for some time.

Thank you poodlenoodle! I will try to get hold of the breeder, he shows his dogs almost every weekend so he often takes a while to reply though!

so does that mean if you bred a litter, the puppies couldn't be registered because of colour? You've confused me!

Brainless, when I bought my bitch the breeder said if ever I wanted to breed from her, they would mate her with one of their dogs and do it under their prefix. I would have the pick of the litter, they would keep one, and the rest of the puppies go to pet homes.

So yes, I know they would help. But surely it would be better if I went to a different breeder, to try to improve the future generation?

the question is she a good example of the breed ? How do you know ? for most this means she has been doing well in some type of activity as Goldimali says for example showing ? is she a champion or similar ?. A lot of us have a dog that's a good example of the breed but no proof except our view . I would want to start showing her and getting feedback form others. If you have a litter its not just going to be the one pup you may keep but you will be adding to pups needing homes. How easy will that be? 
Also why do you want to breed ? You don't have to tell everyone but examine your reasons very carefully. Mostly it will be better to get another pup of the same breed rather than breed from your own especially if we are talking pet dogs

That sounds like they want the bitch back on breeding terms did you sign such an agreement?

If not then you are free to choose what you wish to do assuming there are no breeding restrictions, and she is full register.

I would start showing her and get to see what else is available look at pedigrees of dogs you admire and contact the stud owners.

Problem you will have going alone and breeding the litter yourself is homing the puppies, if they are of an uncommon breed and you have no standing/reputation within the breed.  So if you want all the work and any recognition then you will need to get on a steep learning curve. 

If you only want a pup back then his idea of taking a litter from the bitch has merit, though the level of close breeding might be not what you want, use the tool and see what results you get for your bitch, if her COI is low and his suggested stud put with her will not make it high then you might be best to accept his advice.

You won't know unless you discuss things.

No, he is registered and his offspring could be (assuming he meets the health criteria for his breeder to lift his endorsement) but on his paperwork his colour says "not recognised" as the KC only recognise solid colours in his breed. In a showing class he would be last, as he does not meet the breed standard.

It is difficult for you. I wouldn't necessarily want to approach them based on what you've said about her breeder (that they would use their stud and keep a pup etc.) either, BUT they still have the most info about your girl and her lines. It does sound like they have (or think they have?) a breeding arrangement with you. There are some major breeding kennels near me which will send bitches out to homes at discounted fees on the agreement that at age 2 they are health tested and if they make the grade can then be bred up to 3 litters by the kennel and all the puppies belong to the stud, after which they are spayed and returned to their pet home for good for a final instalment of purchase cost. Did you sign anything like that?

For all of you asking, there is no such breeding "arrangement". We simply left it at, if I wanted to breed from her then I was free to go back to her breeder; BUT I'm under absolutely no obligation to do so.

None of you are answering my questions!! As I said I'm not ready to breed yet, I might never be! I just can't find answers to my questions anywhere else.

Right well:

1) if you want to. It sounds like if you don't want to there are no agreements or endorsements to prevent you going elsewhere.

2) it depends on the individual dogs. If they have the healthiest/best matched stud available to you then they might be the best option. As suggested by more knowledgeable than me above, you need to do your homework and work out her coefficient and potential coefficients of any potential pups.

3) again, it depends on the dog. If you find a really good match for your girl you might want to be more forgiving of old age than if it's only an average match.

4) you would surely answer their advert? Or if it was a male dog you knew of but are unsure if he is being offered for stud then you would contact the owner and explain that you have a tested bitch and wonder if their boy is health tested and available for stud.

Proper job! Thank you!

Just caught this question.   For starters, if your bitch came from a good breeder, and this is in the UK and N.America from personal experience, she should have been sold with a non breeding endorsement as a puppy, which would need to be lifted by her breeder, if she felt she was good enough to be bred from.   And it would have helped to have significant wins in the ring, if not a Championship too.   In other countries, the situation re endorsements may be different.

Secondly if you aren't experienced, I'd always suggest the breeder of the bitch should be involved in helping a novice breeder choose a suitable stud dog.   It doesn't have to be one within their kennel, and again a good breeder would know not only about the faults in your bitch (pedigree) but also in any stud dog (pedigree again) being considered so hopefully you don't double up on known faults, seen or recessive.

If you decide to go it alone, you approach the owner of the stud dog you are interested in using and ask whether he might be available for your bitch.   Again an experienced breeder should know about the bloodlines behind your bitch and whether, in her opinion, the dog you'd like to use, would be suitable for her.   Remembering the owner of the stud dog is 50% responsible for what he might sire.   I had a couple of dogs at public stud but always 'to approved bitches only' which meant if I didn't think the mating would nick, I declined the approach.    It's not saying your bitch isn't worth breeding from, necessarily (!) but just that the owner of the stud dog knows what might crop up.   Remembering always that what might look right on paper, may not be in reality.    Yes, study pedigrees, but it helps to know the dogs in the pedigree, at least for a few generations back - and I do tend to take note of the GRANDPARENTS as much, or more, as the parents.

There's nothing wrong with having common ancestors as long as they are basically not carrying major faults.  Linebreeding fixes type afterall.  Obviously mother to son, father to daughter and brother to sister isn't advisable, and the UKKC won't accept registrations from litters from matings as close as that.  Even with planned half brother to half sister matings, they recommend a more experienced fellow-breeder be approached for their opinion about whether this is a good idea.    The secret of good breeding tends to be to do some line-breeding, but to know when to outcross - and outcross matings can produce the best of the best, and also the worst of the worst!!   In other words, outcrossing can be good, or a disaster.    And once a breeder 'goes out', they normally breed back in again after that or they tend to end up with a mish-mash.

consider mamabas replies to your questions as well. I think other people were coming form a more general view as there is an awful lot more to deciding to breed and the first for me would be why ?

> the first for me would be why ?

FOR SURE!!!

As you are only thinking of breeding your girl, I would think it would be OK to mention which one of your Spaniels you are looking at mating.

As you are in Australia what sort of demand is there for puppies of her breed? The logistics of getting to a suitable stud dog must be completely different to say the UK. The people I know in my breed who live in Australia and New Zealand use AI a lot.

Are you planning the litter so you can keep a puppy?

> As you are only thinking of breeding your girl, I would think it would be OK to mention which one of your Spaniels you are looking at mating.<br /><br />As you are in Australia what sort of demand is there for puppies of her breed? The logistics of getting to a suitable stud dog must be completely different to say the UK. The people I know in my breed who live in Australia and New Zealand use AI a lot. <br /><br />Are you planning the litter so you can keep a puppy?

I thought I wasn't allowed to say which breed she is But she is a Field Spaniel.

In Australia either the sire or dam's owner has to be a breeder, which means taking a 6 month online course from the ANKC in how to breed, get a prefix and have ahome check. I'm not a breeder and don't want to be - if I have a litter with my Fieldie, it is for the sole purpose of improvement and I would have her desexed after one litter. So, that means I have to go 'under' a breeders prefix (they use my bitch to their stud dog). But I only have 9 breeders to choose from!

I can only use AI if I become a registered breeder.

Very strange questions ;-)

No Sussex studs listed on here same story with my breed. Rare breeds don't need to advertise everyone knows everyone. Start at shows or with your breeder simples.

> None of you are answering my questions!! <img title="lol" class="fsm fsm_lol" alt="" src="/images/epx.png" />

I certainly thought I was answering your questions, and giving you the means to check the inbreeding levels on your bitch and how to check what it would be for her offspring using various sires?

What is still unanswered?

You're only not allowed to mention breed when you are breeding, as that could be seen as advertising, i.e. "i am expecting a litter from my LOVELY BLUE FRENCH BULLDOG BITCH, which would be ready end of December, and i just wanted to ask this spurious question in order to hopefully find lots of enquiries from interested buyers via PM...".  It's okay to mention it if you're only thinking about things.

Have you an idea on the male you'd like to use? The dog the breeder has in mind which is one of theirs might be a good pairing as they may have a couple of different lines and thus not to be a very close mating if that's what you're worried about.  How about a chat with the breeder and ask or offer suggestions of other males if you aren't happy.  I'm guessing then that your girl would go to the breeder once she comes into season and stay with them until the puppies have gone? If you go that route make sure you have a contract drawn up so that you both know where you stand re costs and if the worst happens and you loose the puppies or your girl giving birth what happens then. Also choice of puppy to keep etc. Will the breeder find all the right suitable homes and will they then be responsible should they need to go back to the breeder rather than yourself.

So IF you breed you are considering "bending" the rules by using the breeders stud & registering the puppies as bred by them ??  Otherwise you have to study, do a course & get registered in order to be able to breed registered puppies from your bitch ?

I have never bred, because it is easy enough to get a puppy/young dog to work my sheep.

Rarer breeds need careful consideration be being bred from, basic health tests should be done as a minimum(hips/elbows, eyes etc) before starting looking for a stud, an impartial assessment of the quality of the bitch is needed if she hasn't been shown or worked also needs to be done before finding a stud dog. All these things being done & the bitch is healthy & a good example of her breed, then you start looking for a suitable stud for her, line breeding is not a problem, but close in-breeding should only be considered as a final option.

A stud who produces offspring without any of the faults/weaknesses the bitch has (& the perfect dog has yet to be born)to be a priority as well as his character/temperament/construction/health status.

You mention that your bitch was nervous at first, I would also take this into consideration

Us you should contact your girls breeder. As I'm assuming your new to the breed and breeding. Your girls breeder will know the dogs behind her and if those lines are known for any issues or which lines you should advoid or consider using. Unless you have been actively involved in the breed and studying it for years you won't know these things. Even if your don't consider any of their current studs suitable for her they can give you honest opyions on your options of studs from other breeders.

It is fine for some dogs to appear on both sides of the pedigree depending on the actual dogs. Which is why knowing the lines is very important as if one of those dogs that appear more than once ended up having a problem there is a higher chance of the genes for it being passed on the more that dog appears in the pedigree. So for example if a dog appeared 2/3 Times and he was known to sire puppies with cleaft pallets that's a problem you would need to consider.
As yours is a less common breed it may be impossible to avoid any reasont inbreeding unless you imported seamen, took her abroad to be mated or one of the breeders has an imported male.

Providing a male has fertile sperm and is still healthy there is no upper age limit. Older studs have a advantage as you will know more about his health, longativity and what he produces than a very young stud.

Have you shown or worked your girl or done any other activities with her? It's threw showing/working triles ect that that you would be able to see the males of your breed and who the breeders are. Showing will also tell you your girls faults, all dogs have faults no matter how perfect we thing they are. As you should be aiming for a stud who does not have the same faults as your girl reading show critics, watching him in action and asking to see him yourself will let you make sure this is the case. A stud owner may likley want proof your girl is good enough to be put back into the breeds gene pool as well.
As you know the health testing will need doing and some of the stud owners may only allow their boys to be used by people who are actively involved in the breed (eg working/showing ect).
So you would find the studs in their field of activity and they would see your girl proving her self, you would then approach them and enquire about using their male at stud, show them your girls pedigree and health testing results and ask their terms.

As some of the others have said you will need to think hard about what you will do with the puppies. Rare breeds can be hard to find homes for as there just isn't alot of people looking for them and some of the ones who are won't be suitable to meets the breeds needs. Which is why it's best to have a waiting list of a few good homes before you mate your girl. Yes they could pull out but at least you have some lined up. If you are not known in the breed this can be harder.
My breeds a rare breed and were planning our first litter but have had a waiting list for the last two years. In my breed if a breeder has an enquire but no current plans to breed and know another breeder does we will pass them on to them. But if your not a registered breeder will the ones who are do this for you? I'd say it would be unlikely.

If you want to breed I would fill in the paperwork and take the test you need to do to become a breeder, if you haven't yet start getting involved in your breed via showing, working triles or other activities and while there get to know the breeders and their lines and see if your breeder is willing to advise you. Although if you only after a one off litter rather than working on producing a quality line it would be easyer (and defernatly cheaper) to just buy in a puppy

Suejaw - yes, if I go back to her breeder she would stay with them. They would cover all the costs of the pregnancy and puppies until they're 8 weeks old.

Jo -  She was assessed by two well-respected judges as a puppy, and out of nine puppies she was one of 3 to make it onto main register. I haven't shown her as yet but am planning to. I would only breed -
IF she first became a champion.
IF she has low hip & elbow scores, and a clear eye certificate.
IF I can find a suitable stud, who is not too closely related.

As I said before, I'm not ready to breed from her yet because it depends on so many things! But I may as well ask stupid questions while I can

Tommee - yes that's right. I know I'm not experienced enough to become a breeder myself so going to someone else is the obvious option.

Well due to the question you asked! You have had an easier baptism than others asking same questions

An assessment at 9 weeks isn't a guarantee that she's good enough to breed from at 2yrs plus. I would say get yourself.into the ring and see how she fairs and then have a think about what you want to do. She doesn't need to be a ch to breed of from unless the breeder is requesting this to be the case? Not sure how easy it is out in Australia to make a dog up especially in a vulnerable breed.
For me with your list I would get her shown and see how she fairs first. If she does well then crack on with her health tests and if they are good then have a think about mating her with the breeders assistance.
R8ght now I think you're jumping the gun because she may not be the right quality or she may fail health tests.
So put breeding on the back burner for now and get going on the other things. The breeding test for an affix does sound a good idea and I would personally be looking to do that even if all goes well and she goes back to her breeder, I bet there is a lot of useful information in doing that course.

I've not as yet noticed whether or not you are breeding to keep a puppy??

> R8ght now I think you're jumping the gun because she may not be the right quality or she may fail health tests.<br />So put breeding on the back burner for now and get going on the other things. The breeding test for an affix does sound a good idea and I would personally be looking to do that even if all goes well and she goes back to her breeder, I bet there is a lot of useful information in doing that course.

Thanks for the advice :) I agree I'm thinking too far ahead, but if I'm going to breed I want to get as much info, as early on as possible! Re becoming a ch to breed - just not the done thing in Australia to breed from a dog that hasn't 'proven itself'.

> R8ght now I think you're jumping the gun

This breed has issues fertility wise (small gene pool) with bitches often missing etc, so there really isn't that much time if she is already two years old.

I'd say get on with showing her in next few months before she is due in season and get the health testing down and advice from the breeder.

If she is expecting the breeder to have her and breed the litter it needs to fit in with their plans too, if she is going to do it herself (which is the proper option as far as I'd be concerned if my bitch was to be bred from) then she needs to apply for the breeder course with the ANKC, get her affix and go on from there.

I think having to take a course before being able to be a Kennel club registering breeder is a brilliant idea.

Anyone breeding should have the basic knowledge and prove they have it before breeding.

> just not the done thing in Australia to breed from a dog that hasn't 'proven itself'.

In the UK it is the rare dog that becomes a champion, (in my numerically small breed maybe two to 4 dogs a year) proving itself doesn't mean it has to be the most outstanding dog.

Decent Placings/class wins against her peers will give you an idea of her quality, over a season of shows.

After all if you breed from her without showing she won't be a champion anyway.

Even in the Australian system it isn't a certainty as you still compete against existing champions for the challenge points.

In the USA most dogs bred from are champions, but there they only compete against non champions for the points.

Thanks for all the advice Brainless. I'll definitely look into getting my own prefix. I don't know how challenge points work in the UK, but over here it's entirely possible that a dog can be awarded the title just by competing against themselves, so to speak.

In UK the number of CC's is restricted based n breed popularity, some breeds only have 5 sets of CC's a year, my breed has 18 sets.

In Australia you need 100 points so competing only against yourself would take quite a while to get them, and of course judges can always withhold the awards if the dogs lack merit.

Over here you earn 6 points minimum for each CC. 5 for the CC itself and then one for every dog competing, including yourself.

This chart might help explain how it works: http://www.dogswest.com/dogswest/d/Members/Frequently_Asked_Questions/HN2S7NXJ6Y1W1ULC26XX2UZAC7LVZB/1L6UP4OPGGOPYU8.pdf/Pathway+to+BIS.pdf