Just back from a walk with my guy, and coming home we met an aggressive dog. Or at least i think it was aggressive.

When I spotted them (miles off, on a disused golf course and we were uphill from them) I had just put my boy on a lead, more because his recall isn't hugely reliable when there's an exciting situation happening and we were fairly near the exit which has a main road outside, I was already putting the lead on before I spotted them. Other dog looked from afar like a chocolate lab but close up was bigger, some sort of mastiff looking thing. Owner was late teens/early twenties on his phone. From a few yards away other dog stopped, raised hackles then ran at my boy growling. Meanwhile my 3yo is saying "dog" and looking like he might try to pet it (he has autism and no sense of danger). Owner called dog, dog ignored call and ran snarling at my dog. My dog jumped out of the way but was on a lead. Owner said "he won't bite" to which I replied "that's not much comfort mate" as dogs leaped snarling/whining round my shins. Dog owner took dog's collar and led it away. About 20 feet away he let it go and it raced back snarling and barreled into my boy. I snatched my 3 year old up (he was close to me/the dogs and I couldn't get him safely away without asking one of my other children to come closer and collect him). My dog cried, crawled on his belly and peed. Other dog continued its noise and pursuit. Finally dog owner put its lead on and led it away, very nonchalantly as if it happens all the time. I was shaking like a leaf but my dog seemed okay.

So my questions are twofold.

One is - did I do the wrong things? What should one do in that situation? I had a friend and four kids with me so I couldn't just walk off, plus they happened upon us when I was taking mine off his 30' lead he runs "loose" on and putting him back on his normal lead so my bag and treats etc were dumped on the grass beside us and my kids were sitting resting in the shade. I know I perhaps should have let mine go, but he was being very submissive already and I am scared to let a terrified puppy go near a road because he may well run across it to go home. I wanted to smack the other dog with my lead but feared it would escalate things. I did keep stepping between the dogs (mine was hiding behind me anyway) but the other dog just ran round me.

Two is - was that dog ACTUALLY being aggressive? If a dog behaved like that towards a human I'm sure it would be regarded as very aggressive, but my dog wasn't perturbed once the situation was over. I wonder if I think it is worse than it is?

I will be honest and say it's something about dog ownership that I don't recall happening as much with my last dog (a neutered pyranees X) and I am REALLY disliking. It has only happened 3 times in two months so it's not as if it's relentless, but it makes me feel so unsafe, particularly when I have my children with me. If people know their dog is dog-aggressive why do they walk them off lead or not even put them on lead when these things arise?

I'd call the Police on the non-emergancy line and ask about this.   We had an attack on one of a group of our hounds being walked past a house up the road at one time, in the small hamlet we lived in.   He had a Boxer who was known for being aggressive.   The dog obviously heard us passing, if he didn't actually see us, broke right through the fencing and before I could draw breath, grabbed one of our hounds, a male, by the throat.   His eyes were popping out.   Thank heavens the owner heard the racket, my lot baying their heads off and us shouting/screaming and got his dog off our boy.    When we got home, and I was shaking like a leaf, never mind my hound, I checked him out and could find nothing too bad but we called the police, who knew the guy as he had 'previous', not with the dog, and logged the incident.    His wife came to the door 10 minutes later to ask if we/our dog was okay and apologised.   He on the other hand had said if we reported him, he'd 'kill us'.   And we told the police about that too!

You'll probably find that owner's dog did this all the time but it needs to be stopped.   The Police are taking more notice of dog on dog attacks these days (UK) and more so if there were children involved, or there.   It would help if you know where this guy lives.    If this is happening with this dog you may have to consider where you walk with him, perhaps taking him off to somewhere quiet(er)?

Sometimes entire males will be more inclined, actually, to pick on neutered males because they can't work out what they are, if neutered.   I'm saying this because I don't think it will make any difference if your current dog isn't neutered to be honest.   Much as maybe his body language is suggesting he's up for a fight?

His body language on first seeing any dog is excited/inviting play - he's just turned 4 months old. As soon as the other dog "started" he ducked/curled down into a submissive posture, but the other dog had already decided he needed putting in his place and didn't stop.

Unfortunately this is the quietest place there is nearby where he can be off lead. We met three dogs (all on leads, as my boy was too at that point) coming in, and this one dog when leaving, in about 5 miles of parkland. You can walk there three hours and not see another soul.

Hmm have done some reading and wonder now if a) being a poodle and very "upright" on his toes and tail carried up or out, he looks aggressive to other dogs, especially with his black face and dark eyes (have read it's harder for dogs to read expressions on black dogs), or, b) his invitations to play are actually inappropriate/bad manners?

All three aggressive dogs we've met were adult, entire males. Two larger than him, one smaller. All three approached him when he was on lead. He greets with playful moves (bowing, pawing at them), they begin growling and run at him. The two larger approached with hackles raised and tail stiff, the smaller one started off friendly but became aggravated after a moment if interaction (him and his two pals were jumping all over my boy).

It is hard - I appreciate him learning good doggie manners, but I don't want him being jumped on when he us literally peeing in submission because that seems unfair.

Some dogs (due to poor handling) will be aggressive no matter what kind of dog they meet. When my cocker was a puppy - around eight month old - she was attacked just outside our house, by a local dog. I was right outside my front door, getting shopping in from the car, when this dog passed by with his owner. The owner was blind drunk; even though it was the middle of the day, and the dog was off the lead, even though we live on a moderately busy road. My dog came out to the car to say hello to us, and then this dog - a staffie type cross - just went for her. It got her round the neck and absolutely wouldn't let go. The owner actually sat down in the middle of the path, he was so drunk, while I screamed and yelled at him to "get your dog off my dog!!" It was snarling and making this horrendous noise. Eventually, a passing postman had to actually kick this poor animal repeatedly to get it to let go. It was absolutely terrifying.

Anyhow, I think some dogs will attack any other dog, for no reason other than very poor upbringing. I think in your case I might have challenged the owner, though by the sounds of it, he wouldn't have been too receptive!

I took my dog to play with a friends' dogs today and have come to several conclusions.

The first is that I think the dogs we've met have been "telling him off" rather than trying to hurt him. The second is I think he has sort of bad doggie manners and tries to play when he should be saying politely "hello" or respectfully disengaging from a disinterested playmate.

Today the cocker bitch put up with him for a certain amount of time then told him off a bit and he ignored the telling off and went over to play (bowing and bouncing about - you know what puppies are like) until she really went after him. THEN he took the telling. So perhaps I am really scared by a bit of noise and fuss, none of these dogs have actually bitten him.

He almost certainly does need to be taught dog manners but there is a difference between a "good" telling off by a bitch who says that's enough and warns then really pushes the point and a possibly aggressive male who may well not be well socialised and goes too far with him too soon. That scenario can make a puppy fearful and possibly encourage him to defend himself as he gets older, it happened to me with a GSD bitch puppy who got bitten at 4 months by a black lab and really did not like black dogs as an adult, she tolerated them but was wary all her life.

Don't worry too much though as most pups get through the phase of trying to play with every other dog unharmed, I would suggest you have a look round for a good training club and get yours into classes.

We've been in classes for five weeks already, he's brilliant in class. His training is coming on well and he is fine with the dogs in class (but it is a puppy class, so everyone wants to play as much or almost as much as him). He by no means irritates everyone he meets, it just seems something about him gets the more aggressive male dogs' backs up.

The bitch today was also coming to the end of her season, she was as tolerant as she ever is with him (very, then quite, then not very, then not at all!) but he was beside himself over her. Four months old and not a sign of puberty yet but he certainly thought she smelled very exciting.

Poodlenoodle, puppies have notoriously bad manners and often need to be taught.  Years ago i read an article about dog manners that is very thought provoking but i cant find it just now.  It was from the perspective of a human coming up to a stranger and groping them and shouting - its bad manners and not acceptable in society and it then compared it to dogs.  Ill find the article and post it.

i read an article about dog manners

I remember that - it was really well explained.............I think it was an American who wrote it - female and one of the well reccommended behaviourists.
edited to add - was it Jean Donaldson?

Is it this one?

http://suzanneclothier.com/he-just-wants-to-say-hi#.V6HaX0ekqrV

There's a similar thread on another forum and someone quoted the link

Yes, thats the one

Just want to say Thank You for reminding me about this wonderful article by the brilliant Suzanne Clothier.

One of my boys (three years old), although usually friendly and sociable does not like large rude dogs rushing up to him, especially if he is on lead and they are not. 

He completely ignores smaller noisy dogs, however much they bark at him and appear to want to kill him.  Quite a few of those round here!  He just walks on as if they aren't there, bless him, or looks at me for a treat, which makes me proud.

Most of the time if i see a rude or over boisterous dog bouncing in our direction I take avoiding action and change course which works well.  Unfortunately, however careful I am, I cannot always be prepared for a large dog rushing out of the woods or appearing from round a corner without warning and aiming straight at him.  If such a dog 'gets in his face' he will bark and tell the other dog off.  He never starts a row, just barks very loudly at the intruder and his response is over in a second.  To my mind that is fair enough but it's amazing how many other owners think it's OK for their dog - a complete stranger to mine - to jump all over him and will say things to me like 'Oh, isn't yours friendly, then?"

I've done loads of work playing the 'look at that game', and similar exercises,  plus loads of clicking and treating for ignoring various distractions, including other dogs.  It's worked really well and he loves it, so much so that he turns to look at me now when we see distractions even a short distance away.

My only concern is that if he gets fed up with the rude bouncy dogs rushing towards him, he just may start to 'get in first' with his reaction by having a go at the other dog before it gets to him.  No sign of that yet, but I do wonder ...

It's frustrating when as an owner you take full responsibility for training your own dog, working on recall, socialisation and general obedience, doing everything you can to keep him safe - and other owners do none of these things and don't realise that their dogs are actually being very rude.

Any tips on how to handle the occasions when a dog appears from nowhere and invades your own dog's space, giving you no time to prepare for it, gratefully received!  I guess Suzanne's suggestion of trying to get in between my dog and the approaching missile might work - but that's not easy when it all happens so quickly!

How do others manage this, I wonder?

Throw a handful of treats directly at the incoming dog's face.  With all but the most determined, it shocks them and then distracts them long enough for you to get some distance, and diffuses the whole situation as they are now pointed at the ground and not your dog.

That is a brilliant article, and confirmed SOME of what i was thinking (that these dogs are more trying to teach my boy manners than actually hurt him). 

The only issue i have is that in all three situations MY dog is on a lead and i am actively constraining his boisterousness, and the other dogs are loose and come running up to shout at mine.  I absolutely DO lead him away if he is getting over the top, don't allow him to run up to strange dogs, and click/treat for nice "hello-ing". 

What do i do then?  Do these loose dogs have a right to tell mine off for "looking at them wrong"?  The two larger dogs approached from 10+ feet away with hackles raised and tail stiff, apparently because my boy was looking at them wrong (interested, as a puppy, and with tail relatively high as a poodle), while he is tightly held right by my left leg.

As to what to do i am definitely going to try to get between and take a step forwards before they reach us.  I generally have lots of lovely treats with me too, so maybe i could try that but honestly the dogs having a go seem so focused i think i'd have to hit them quite hard to distract them from their intention enough that they realise what i've hit them with. 

If i have him on the lead he needs to regard these dogs as my problem or HE will become reactionary.  I will admit i have also been looking at pet corrector spray (sprays a loud jet of air) online.  I haven't bought any and will be talking to my trainer about it this week, but i am tempted as i think having it with me would make me feel a bit more confident, that if the other dog really did begin to attack in earnest i could spray it.

Thanks for your reply, Nikita.  That's something I haven't tried before so I will certainly give it a go.

(By the way - I'm not trying to highjack the thread - just thought my experiences are relevant to the OP!)

Please don't worry about highjacking - i have learned my most useful and interesting info from other people weighing in on my questions!  Talk away, it is all great grist for my mill :)

Nikita
This is the most sensible advice I've ever read.
Thank you .

That's good - thanks poodlenoodle.  I'm glad you liked the Suzanne Clothier article.  I think she's great.  You might enjoy her book "And Bones Would Rain from the Sky" too.

If you're holding his lead tight and holding his head up you are causing the problem keep it loose and see if it makes a difference.

Pet corrector sprays can make the whole thing worse if they frighten your own dog.  Negative associations with other dogs, etc.  If you do decide to go down that route, even if you never then have to use it, make sure you take some time getting him happy with the noise, from a distance to begin with and then close to his face as that's where it would be most likely to be used on another dog during an attack.

Zuma has a problem with bouncy dogs running up towards him ( 4 dogs in 3 months trying to take lumps out of him when he was about 15 months old )
what works for him (on a flexi) is when the dog is still at a distance to tell him sit and then let a couple of foot out on the lead so it is slack and I also stand a couple of foot from him - so I am not his 'back-up' and let him watch it. the fact that he is not moving often means he is not as interesting to the other dog, its focus goes from him and it just goes on its way

If I hold him on a loose lead he dashes to the end of it and tries to get the approaching dog to play, usually by batting it in the face, so that is not a very safe idea. That said, he is beside me in his normal posture, not dangling from the lead with his head in the air!

Thanks jodi thats the one

> Do these loose dogs have a right to tell mine off for "looking at them wrong"?

Not really, in our view but in canine terms perhaps.

It is a good idea to break/avoid him having eye contact with other (I assume male) dogs as he is approaching and during puberty.  Especially on lead he has fewer options to avoid the other dogs.

Many males will not feel the need to put him in his place, but dog dominant males most certainly will with young males as testosterone levels increase.

Try to keep his dog to dog socialisation with males to a minimum (3 second meet and greet), and off lead (30 - 50 foot long line) with bitches and known tolerant males

Could you help him to learn to ignore the other dogs by asking him to sit, and getting him to focus on you using a treat in a squeezy tube?  I had problems with my youngster (now 4), who used to think "all puppies are to play with, and all little dogs are puppies!" (even when the little dogs were elderly small breeds). 

I found loose "pieces of treat" were difficult to handle in such situations as when he was trying to pester the elderly into playing rough and tumble, and had better success using cheese or liver-pate-for-dogs in squeezy tubes as the tube was easier to hold in one hand, so it was always ready for use. Also with a squeezy tube it was possible to deliver an endless stream of treat into the dog's mouth so he didn't lose his focus on me while I fiddled in pocket or treat bag for another piece.  We used to vary the flavours from tube to tube to keep them desirable to him. (He is a very sociable little fellow so it took several months.)* 

We were then able to progress to "what's this in the hedge/grass/pavement?" - no, I couldn't see it but it distracted him to go looking.

*I'm sure everyone else thought I was crazy, but this worked for us.

I have been using primula in training "heel", merrypaws what a brilliant idea, that you!

I've bought this thread up again as we met a standard poodle today and I noticed my dog was a bit apprehensive for no particular reason I could see. He was a lovely all black dog and not overly interested in a Isla, but as he approached he literally went right up on his toes, head and tail in the air. Isla seemed to find this worrying and didn't want to approach him which is unusual for her.
Earlier in this thread someone mentioned the poodle upright stance as perhaps intimidating other dogs and having seen my dogs reaction I would if this could be why poodlenoodle is finding some dogs are behaving rather harshly to him

I often noticed a similar reaction to my Elkhound, she had a similar upright physique:  upright ears, square standing & .moving and tail held high.  She wasn't much interested in other dogs except other northern/Spitz types - but was a wonderful role model & playmate for my terrier mix pup.  She didn't start anything, was incredibly tolerant in fact, but had put one or two 'in their place '.  I've also had two solid black dogs, one smooth one double coated long hair and friends with similar I would say that a full black coat can make it difficult for other dogs to read but as a parti-colour I doubt that would be a problem.
The most important thing, IMHO, is to keep your dog safe by keeping calm , him on a long line, not rushing things (there's too much emphasis on ticking socialisation boxes these days). A well bred dog (even some not) taken carefully, will adjust to new challenges, when they're ready - not when it's expected.  You know your pup.

We had a great chat at puppy class with our very sensible trainer tonight and I feel calmer about it all now.

Her main points were:

1) for all the noise and fuss, those dogs didn't actually bite, and if he was fine after (he was, whereas when my friends cocker bitch lost her patience and told him off, also without biting at all, he was markedly diminished in his exuberance!) then probably from the dogs point if view it wasn't a hugely serious altercation anyway.

2) people walk their dogs multiple times a day for years and you very rarely hear of anyone who didn't bring their dog home due to it being savaged.

3) I am already doing the right things (they have observed me every week rewarding good greetings and removing him when he gets over the top) and he will mature and grow and get past this, and that his confident exuberance might be annoying now but it's easier to tone that down in everyday life than it is to build confidence in a naturally shy dog who is more likely to get frights in everyday life (albeit from idiots like mine trying jump on them ).

4) ultimately if a big dog comes running up with the specific intention of savaging my dog there realistically isn't much I can do about it anyway, and would likely get bitten if I try, so there's not much point worrying about it if the worry is going to affect my attitude on walks etc. as that can only make things worse.

It was suggested that we could step in front of our dog to block line of sight, or ask our dog to look at us, heel in a different direction etc. so there isn't that "he's looking at me" moment of poodle keen body language.

Anyway I do feel better, and shall take him to the normal field to have a run tomorrow with a lighter heart.

well i have got to a point where i do not let any of my dogs of lead in public now and walk all my 7 dogs on a lead on public roads or avoiding unknown dogs.i have a fear aggressive scottish terier who is muzzled but i have just about had enough of stupid dog owners whose dogs are always in my face and saying 'he is friendly he just wants to play' im gettng to point where taking the scotties muzzle of seems like a good idea just to get rid of this stupid silly morons who dont know dog law and think you are weird for not letting your dogs play with theirs-okay ill let the scottie play with your dog!!!! he isnt friendly-not at all.he has to be muzzled in public and in our garden because he bit a visitor.a neighbour of mine had his spinone attacked by a staffy off lead and he now carries a big stick.i carry a riding cane with me and i will whack any dog who comes near mine.repeated requests to people to recall their dogs is met by scowls and those oh familar words -he is friendly he just wants to play well quite frankly i feel like beating the carp out of these mindless morons!!- i am not friendly and dont want to play.then there are those idiots with loose dogs playing with those ball launcher things lol_enough said........

As with everything in life I think a bit of understanding from both sides is necessary.

> i carry a riding cane with me and i will whack any dog who comes near mine

I do feel sorry for the owners of bouncy young pups that encounter you then. Just to be clear I'm not talking about my dogs, I have sighthounds that are quite sensitive and will rarely get too close to a dog they don't know. However often, in fact daily, on our walks we are met by bouncy young dogs, usually gundogs - labs, goldies etc that don't yet have perfect recalls and are very excited about meeting new friends. My dogs don't like this sort of over enthusiasm but they tolerate it and we just keep walking. If the friendly pup is hit by a stick or bitten by your dog then that's how the next generation of aggressive dogs are made.

Of course if you're walking your dogs round the road on lead then fair enough, nobody else should have their dog off lead there. When you talk about ball launchers though it makes me think you're walking in fields or parks too and expecting every single other dog to give you a wide berth. That seems unrealistic to me and not very fair either. Why spoil everyone else's fun just because your dog is aggressive.

Older readers of the forum may be familiar with tales of my Mr Beastly, a dog aggressive borzoi. He went for another dog as a teenager and I never gave him the opportunity to do it again. Not only was he muzzled but I walked in far out of the way places for many years. It was only when he was very elderly that I could walk where I might see other dogs, though of course he was still muzzled. I remember the fear I felt when in the middle of nowhere a young bouncy lab appeared, and yes I did shout to the owner that mine were not friendly. I almost strangled Mr Beastly keeping him out of the way of the other dog, but it wouldn't have occurred to me to hit or kick it, if I was going to do that to any dog it should be mine, the aggressor - though of course I wouldn't.

> When you talk about ball launchers though it makes me think you're walking in fields or parks too and expecting every single other dog to give you a wide berth.

I get where she's coming from with this one.  I've used these myself carefully but, a great many people will just lob the ball with them very far and with no consideration whatsoever for other people, often lobbing the ball directly at them and from quite some distance away!  And, while I don't mind lobbers to a point, tey do allow dogs to cover a huge distance which for those of us with reactive dogs, cuts off a huge chunk of space available for us to alter our route to avoid other dogs.  They can be on the other side of a field from us, so we walk the other side, only to suddenly have a dog coming straight at us, much closer, because of a lobber.  When I used them I was constantly keeping an eye out for other dogs, where they were, where they were heading and making sure my dogs ran the other way - many people don't do any of these things.

i do carry a riding cane and i will use it if i have to to protect myself.i expect to be given space when im walking 7 dogs. between 2 are 13 weeks/15 weeks rest are up to 4 years old.ive been attacked2 times by off lead dogs when minding my own business-ive had one poodle killed and shredded in front of me by an off lead staffy.of course im going to be wary.if people cant control their dogs in public they should be on a lead-they are breaking the law under the dangerous dogs act by not doing so.im just fed up of it.....i have children running up to me aswell and parents going 'its okay they love doggies can they stroke yours?'when you see someone who has a dog with a muzzle on you dont run up to it.i ask people politely to put their dogs on a lead even if im walking away from the other dog to avoid confrontation.oh and as for those tennis ball launcher things-some idiot was throwing one once and it hit my friend on back of head and knocked her out.i grabbed it from the owner and threw it into a hedge whilst waiting for an ambulance to turn up...

I understand it was an accident your friend being hit by a tennis ball. To say you grabbed the launcher from the owner and threw it over the hedge was itself an aggressive act. Lucky the owner didn't go to police I've known people who have..

For me if I see an owner with lots of dogs I put my boy on a lead as I do know pack mentality can occur. Do you have all your dog's off lead?  Can you not put yourself in a one dog owners shoes and understand maybe you and the dogs appear intimidating? As for the riding crop what situation would you use this? If used you could be held responsible for injuries and a possible criminal record.

You whack any dog that comes near you with a riding crop? How many vet bills have you had to pay out. If you had whacked my dog who walked past you I'd certainly photograph any wounds, you and your dog's and take appropriate action. In an open field or woods I'd not expect to see people carrying crops to use as a weapon. Your agressiveness towards others and dogs isn't healthy. You possibly adopt an aggressive pose and no doubt many of the locals tolerate or just put up with this bulldog attitude.
I understand if your previous dogs been ripped up in front of you, horrific and I hoped you prosecuted the owner. However are you not turning into the type of dog owner that people avoid as their ott and aggressive? Two wrongs do not make a right.

Ball chuckers can be very dangerous for dogs especially for ball obsessed dogs, know of several dogs who have injured themselves chasing balls at speed thrown from these things.

As for carrying a riding crop, I sadly now have to use a walking stick & have had to use it on more than one occasion to fend off attacking dog(s), not striking the dogs, but fending them off my dogs, who are exercised off my land on lead only. Having had a dog severely injured by off lead dogs in the past, I understand how defensive it can make people

I can see it from both sides.

I am doing everything I can to prevent my boy jumping on (or even getting rudely close to) strange dogs, unless I have explicitly said to the owner that he's an overexcited puppy and asked if their dog would be okay "meeting" him. Most dog owners are extremely friendly and even if their dog will absolutely not put up with him are kind about saying so. I don't want to have an annoying adult dog that other dogs dislike. I'm working hard on it but he HAS to practice. How can any puppy get good at recall near strange dogs if he never finds himself being called near strange dogs?

His recall isn't perfect (although the only time he hasn't come to call was in the presence of a bitch in heat) but we are working on it. If someone caught us in a difficult moment and I'd not got him back on the lead in time so he bounced on their dog, and the other owner beat him with a whip in response, potentially ruining his confidence for life, I'd be pretty unimpressed.

nothing wrong carrying a riding cane or walking stick to fend of dogs attacking me or my dogs.

Nothing wrong with carrying a stick for defense, no, but you said you whack any dog that comes near, not any dog that's attacking yours.  There is a difference and you could easily create issues in a dog where there were none before.  I'm not condoning others allowing their dogs to come near yours uninvited - dog knows it's something I'm always worried about, having fear reactive dogs of my own (one of whom would never get over an attack if it were to happen) - but to whack any dog is OTT.

Seeing someone walking 7 dogs together, people could be forgiven for thinking that perhaps you are a dog walker with sociable dogs, especially if there's a pup or two in the mix - it's not exactly common to see someone walking 7!  I walk four and I make it obvious that mine aren't keen - if we see a dog anywhere near they go on lead.  Partly because of my reactive dogs, partly because I know that four big dogs together can be intimidating to all but the most confident of other dogs.  But big groups at the park tend to encourage other dogs to go over because they appear to be friendly.

Also, owners who can't control their dogs off lead are not breaking the law.  If those dogs are dangerous then they may be breaking the law but most of the time that is only considered to be the case if their dogs bites a human or an assistance dogs.  Frustratingly, our pets get the rough end of the deal with that one.

> Ball chuckers can be very dangerous for dogs especially for ball obsessed dogs, know of several dogs who have injured themselves chasing balls at speed thrown from these things.

Indeed, I don't use them any more.  I've not had a dog injured but I have dogs with medical problems that are really aggravated by ball chasing and I've had 4 dogs now who have the whole adrenalin issue with ball play, especially lobbers so they are a no-go for my dogs now.  Ball play in general is very limited and the household is much calmer for it.

in our borough you can only walk 4 dogs together anymore and you will be fined and yes they do approach people . Makes no difference if they are yours or your are a dog walker

> in our borough you can only walk 4 dogs together anymore

is that only off lead, seems unreasonable if dogs are on lead (depending on size, ages an temperament ) I walk my 6 together daily on lead road walking for their main walk of the day.

No one or off u can only have 4 dogs at a time.unfortunately  u would likely to be stopped and theu can do in the spot fines of 80 pounds for first time

We have a bulldog living locally, he's about a year old and solid/heavy. My three are more than happy to play with any dogs that are out, but they don't like it when this dog is out because he barges into them and jumps on them. He's not at all aggressive, just over friendly. His owner cannot hold him when he sees another dog so she lets him off the lead at which point he comes steaming over and charges into the nearest dog that he comes to. He's done it to two of mine now and they've remembered and they growl at him. His owner doesn't interact with him, she doesn't correct him or distract him just catches up with him, clips his lead on and goes home, not a word spoken. I've got two dogs now that seriously dislike Bulldogs in general because of the behaviour of this one. I don't blame the dog at all, it's the inept owner, but it does mean I have to keep an eye out so we can avoid him. Sad really.

We met up with an 18 month old male lab today. He was perfectly friendly but like a whirlwind when trying to play with my dog, she was quite put off by his heavy handed style of play. He also growled when playing which unnerved her, so much so she would stop dead and stand hunched up with her head and tail down. He seemed to have enough manners left to also stop and wait until she was ready to play again. I only let them play together for less then a minute before moving on. He was a typical lab, over boisterous and I suspect spends a lot of time playing very roughly with some like minded dogs, he's showing signs of becoming a bit of a bully too. The trouble is that his owner seemed largely ineffectual just saying helplessly that his dog played a 'bit rough'. I wasn't going to hang about to suggest that unless he takes some steps to control the dog he was going to get into some serious trouble when a less patient dog decided to do the job for him.

> is that only off lead, seems unreasonable if dogs are on lead (depending on size, ages an temperament ) I walk my 6 together daily on lead road walking for their main walk of the day.

Same here - 4 dogs per person.  So if I had a friend with me, I could walk 8.  It applies on or off lead.  The chances of actually being stopped and fined are somewhat miniscule in reality but I don't take the chance!

Gosh hope it never happens here, Can understand off lead limits, but not on lead.

Frankly, it's absurd.  I don't feel comfortable walking more than 4 at once anyway but it's supposed to be for safety - how many dogs a person can reasonably keep control of etc.  And hygeine I imagine.  Of course it makes no difference - I've seen plenty of people with one dog leaving poo behind, and heard of enough attacks by a solo dog, but I never see either problem with anyone with a group.  Not once.

I suppose it's one more way that councils can be seen to be putting measures in place without actually doing anything or spending any money on the issues.

Out of control
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:

injures someone
makes someone worried that it might injure them
A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:

it attacks someone’s animal
the owner of an animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal