Our pups will be 7wks on Saturday and all is going well, except the normal mess and noise(!!).

However, we've had runny poos for just under a week now. Pups are happy and playing as normal and there is no blood or mucous in the poo, no vomiting, ace appetites - just little cowpats when they go. (Which are much harder to clean up and everyone tracks it everywhere!).

We're definitely not over-feeding them, if anything we are slightly under feeding as we don't want to make the poop situation worse.

I don't really want to get the vet out and go down the antibiotic route for such young pups, nuking their immature guts etc, so I've been hoping their immune systems will kick in...

I'm going to give some live yoghurt today and also use a sachet of Yudigest Plus on their food.

Pups are going to new homes in 8 days time (8wks), and as 5 of these homes have ferries and hotels booked to collect their puppies, I can't tell them I want to keep pups longer due to poops. I also want to get it cleared up before they leave us, especially before they go on their ferry...

Any ideas on best way forwards from here? At what point should I get the vet out?  There won't be enough time to get results back from a poo sample and treat, now, so a vet would have to guess... Or do I just notify new owners at pick up...?

I wouldn't be letting puppies go with any suspicion of poo problems, although I would normally agree about the use or mis-use of antibiotics but the pups immune systems may be compromised by whatever is causing the soft poo. Perhaps you could try a "deep clean" of the puppies areas, I am not suggesting you don't keep up with the cleaning but it couldn't hurt to be over cautious.

I would say that if there is no improvement in a couple of days then a vet trip and antibiotics would be my choice.

I would agree with Mixedpack that I wouldn't let them leave without resolving it. Pups often get upset tums when they leave due to stress, change of water etc.... If they already have an issue they could go down quickly giving new owners a lot of worry.

I'm totally with you on the non antibiotic route if necessary but you are getting short of time.... What did you worm with? Could it be giardia or didyou use Panacur?

I had a similar situation in pups a few years ago at the same age and put everyone back from collecting for a week to give me time to sort it out and have a sample done at the vets so I could send them off with a copy of the report saying they were all clear.... Much less stressful in the long run to give yourself a bit longer to clear it up than panic they will be going in a week

As you know, I've been dealing with just this problem for weeks now.  One puppy got over it, the other has continued to have trouble despite the metronidazole.  Poop checks came back perfect.  So last week, in an effort to combat the will-this-never-end situation other than with antibiotics, I simply switched the food completely and suddenly.  I cooked for him myself:  potatoes and chicken.  Only.  Instant and complete improvement was the result, and he's doing great so far.  I'll be trying to ease him onto another food (but naturally not the same one as before), one which is easily obtainable - such as Trainer - soon, so that when he goes to his new home, I'll know what to tell the people to do.

are you still giving milk, if so cut that out and poos should firm up quickly, also of they have recently been wormed this will have an effect on poo consistency without there being a problem as such.

Will attempt to respond to everyone in one post, if I can remember what everyone said...!

No, we're not still giving milk and haven't been for many weeks now.  They are just on Bob and Lush kibble, slightly wetted down with a splash of water.  They were fine on this for a couple of weeks, before the poo problems, so I don't think it's the food. 

We can't adjust the pick-up dates for 5 of the 7 pups, because those people have non-refundable ferries and hotels booked (since getting a pup from here involves an overnight stay!) and there's a lot for each of them to co-ordinate.  So the pups do have to go at 8wks.  2 of them are going locally, and we could delay their pick-ups.

It's not every pup - some pups are doing good poos.  (And some which were previously doing runny poos are now doing ok poos, so I am hoping it is clearing up.) 

We wormed with Panacur at 2wks and 4wks, and then with Drontal Puppy at 6wks.  The first runny poo happened before that worming, though.  It was just a single runny poo and they had all been good before that - I didn't see whose - the next day, they all had the same runny poos.  Although they were wormed between seeing this first one, and them all happening, I don't think it was the wormer - cos the first one happened before the wormer.  And also because they were wormed with the Drontal 5 days ago now, so if it was that, it shouldn't still be causing a problem. 

I did wonder about giardia and using Panacur, but I think they'd be much more unwell if it were giardia(!?) and they seem really well, besides this one thing.

We have today moved their outdoor pen off the grass and onto the paving area, so we can now hose off and disinfect the area much better, and we have soaked all their hard toys in Milton, and sprayed everything over with Safe4Pets disinfectant.

Anyway, I will continue with the bio yoghurt (not sure how much to use, in each meal?) and twice a day add a sachet of Yudigest Pro - and hopefully it will clear up over the weekend, if not we'll have to get the vet out on Monday and hope whatever she does, works quickly, as the first 2 pups go Friday next week....

Whoop, I just picked up THREE solid poos, so let's hope the crisis is averted. But I'll keep on with the yoghurt - could it really be that, so quickly???

> I will continue with the bio yoghurt (not sure how much to use, in each meal?)

I have always given a generous tablespoon for each pup per meal.

Have often found it work pretty quickly, especially with my recent whelped bitch, back in the spring who went from projectile liquid to semi formed within the day and back to normal next day (mind you she did get a whole pot over a day).

Also hot weather can make pups a bit loose like babies.

steam some Butternut Squash, give it a good mash, let it cool and add this to their diet .. I got brilliant results very quickly by including this in pups diets..

I do wonder if maybe you've overwormed them. Panacur states worm at 2 weeks and then 5. You've also now mixed types of wormer which is likely to upset them too.
Drontal is 2, 4 and 6 weeks.
Just a possibility to your dilemma.

Hope they continue with their firm poos

I did consider that it could be due to the change of product used.  I wonder why there had to be a change?

We just wanted to cover all eventualities and have heard that some wormers pick things up which others miss. Last thing I want is new owners using something different and seeing worms.  And the Panacur was also trickier as needed 3 days - which in tiny pups is fine but they are so demanding now that just doing it in one day was very appealing... I don't think it was the wormer as the first runny poo happened before we gave the Drontal.

We now have about half of them with good poos and half with runny poos still, hoping they will catch up..

What I'm trying to say is that you gave the panacur a week too early. It's 2 weeks and then 5 weeks. So possibly that it was too much for their little bodies. I never used panacur but I would take it almost like an overdose if you don't stick to the directions

Oh I see what you mean... They were fine after the 4wk worming though, there were no probs after that. 

I did 4wks, because the instructions said "and again before leaving the breeder's premises" and I didn't want to worm them too close to when they left or too close to the 5wks worming - and the Drontal instructions were at 2,4 and 6 weeks so I thought Panacur would be ok the same.

So you wormed panacur at 2 and 4 weeks and at week 6 the drontal? How old were they when they got the runs?

Glad the yoghurt seems to be working

The first runny poo was a day before the Drontal worming. The rest followed 24hrs later.

This morning it is carnage in the puppy room - runny poo everywhere. And all pups need a bath. I'm just getting up....!!

I think I'm going to have to get the vet out as, whether or not new puppy owners can deal with this, I don't think we can for another week!

I could try Panacur, in case it's giardia. They last had Drontal 5 days ago but if I get the vet it'll be even stronger antibiotics.  Or should I just get the vet, given we're running out of time... Arg

I would stop pushing the wormers down them till you know what the problem with the poos is.  It could be you will make it worse. I worm with milbamax at 3 and 6 weeks leaving new owners to worm again at 8 weeks. Give the vets a call, antibiotics could be needed.

I'd be calling the vets now  too. Could be anything that has caused this now.
Hpope you get to the bottom of this

Ok, I'll call when they open at 8am.

I don't think there will be time for a stool sample and treatment before they go to their new homes, so the vet is going to have to guess what it is, based on symptoms.

My husband has an upset stomach today - could just be a coincidence but it's him who cleans out the puppy room every morning(!) - our older dogs are fine, including mum of pups. Our oldest dog also got runny poo about 48hrs after the puppies started but after 48hrs of it, with Yudigest Plus and ProKolin, she is back to normal and so all older dogs are fine now. 

Arg...

Now I am thinking camplyobactor if your husband is ill, it does usually make both people and puppies really poorly though so I hope not and if your OH does have it he should stay away from the pups not that he will feel like doing much poo cleaning.   I do hope you get this resolved soon, such a worry for you not to mention the mess and smell from runny puppies, fingers crossed the vet sorts it out for you.

If it is that it's easily resolved.  I had a puppy a number of years ago which had this. Don't know how he caught it as picked him up at the breeders but it does happen.  Easily treatable.

>I did 4wks, because the instructions said "and again before leaving the breeder's premises" and I didn't want to worm them too close to when they left or too close to the 5wks worming

The Panacur instructions clearly say to treat at 2 weeks, 5 weeks and again before leaving the breeder's premises. So why treat them at 4 weeks? That's totally against the manufacturer's instructions! I don't mean to sound rude, but what on earth made you think that an early dose at 4 weeks would take the place of the final dose due some time after the 5 week dose?

>the Drontal instructions were at 2,4 and 6 weeks so I thought Panacur would be ok the same.

It's never safe to assume the instructions for medications are interchangeable!

Don't give any more medication of any sort without first discussing it with your vet. The puppies can't be homed if they have the runs; you need to get this sorted out quickly.

There were no problems whatsoever when I wormed at 4wks, nor for 2 weeks afterwards. 

But go ahead and beat me up with a judgemental attitude, it's really helpful.

>what on earth made you think that an early dose at 4 weeks would take the place of the final dose due some time after the 5 week dose?

I didn't.  I wormed with Drontal Puppy for the last worming.  I've always alternated and rotated wormers with all my dogs, to ensure parasites don't get resistant to one wormer.

How are the puppies today? Hoping all now getting better xxx

With all those puppies you should be able to achieve at least one stool sample from them to take to the vets. I would be if it's that bad

Adults dogs with a fully-developed digestive system can cope with more changes than baby puppies can. We all know that even changing homes can give them the squits, or changing their food too suddenly. Loading their systems with different checmicals is almost guaranteed to cause issues.

If those puppies are going to be able to go to their new homes in safety they'll need to be completely well. So get some stool samples - a mixture from different puppies is good because it wil negate the need for samples from three consecutive days - to the vet asap. Keep them hydrated - diorolyte from the vet will help - and a good pre/probiotic to help firm them up.

The runny poos had already started in one puppy 24hrs before we wormed with Drontal Puppy....

I'm waiting for a call back from the vets.

Just to add our current Basset, bought at 4 months, was outwardly fine but not doing very good stools.   A fecal showed GIARDIA and roundworm ova despite his breeder saying he'd been wormed.   He was given Panacur by my vet which didn't work with the Giardia - metronadozole did.   But I had them do several fecal tests which all came back clear before I was satisfied we'd got the Giardia.

We always used Sherleys worming syrup with our puppies, starting at 2 weeks and every 2 until they went home at around 10 weeks.   We didn't have any runny stools as this is supposed to be a 'gentle' wormer.      And yes, natural yogurt should help - all the better if you can find goats yogurt!  And I'd say a teaspoon per pup would be enough.    Hopefully all has returned to normal now (not read all your replies).    I'd certainly prefer not to let a puppy doing bad stools go to a new home although understand about the ferry booking.

Later -  "Now I am thinking camplyobactor if your husband is ill,"

I honestly think you need to collect a stool sample from at least one of them - and get it checked for not only 'normal worms' but for Giardia, Salmonella, Campylobacter etc.etc. (protozoa).    Hopefully this isn't what's going on but you do need to get on top of this asap - moving home is stressful enough so even if you have to delay letting them go (the ferry people), I would.

Not returned to normal, MamaBas :( I'd say things have got worse overnight - the poo is runnier and more mucous-y and they seem to be going more frequently. 

Total nightmare with 7 nearly 7 week old pups!!!!  No matter how much we pick it up (even outside on the paving), scrapings are left on the floor - which we hose  - but then I feel we're just blasting little bits of this poop everywhere in this area.  I think tonight we might even have to sleep in shifts, with one of us watching and cleaning up as we go, the other sleeping and then swap - to try to not have such carnage in the morning...

Vet is coming out in an hour or two....

So sorry you are going through this - I know how it feels from when we've had the odd bug get into our lot.  It seems the whole world revolves around what the next stool coming out will look like

Good job you have a vet coming and I hope he can get things put right.     Soooo worrying.

Just to ask whether you've had anybody in recently who has touched the puppies without washing hands first?    Also removing shoes.

I had exactly the same issue with my last litter of 11 puppies. It's no fun. A course of antibiotics should clear things up, my lot were pooing normally after 2 days of treatment. Chin up.

Also sorry you are dealing with this..... Imago had a litter a few years ago the same ..... It's a worrying and stressful time.

You've done all you can and if you have overwormed it's been done now so don't beat yourself up..... It sounds a bit severe for overworming to me, I would expect the poos to be loose not very runny if overwormed. Very runny or watery sounds more bacterial.

Maybe contact the new owners and be honest. Tell them you have a problem with the runs and would prefer to get it sorted before they leave.... If anyone really cannot change they will need to work closely with you anyway to ensure pup is recovering ok and they may need to go away with meds ..... This will take a lot of stress off you trying to firm them up in time. When my litter were bad my vet gave me Metronizadole.... This antibiotic nearly finished them off!! Lying down, too weak to move ,they felt dreadful. Not trying to scare you but I believe you have the same breed as me and maybe ask if there is an alternative if possible..... It's a brutal drug! Mine quickly turned a corner once off it and their poos firmed up very quickly with Synulox.

I wouldn't worm again.... They've had plenty.

You'll sort it but I would let new owners know now so they can make a choice and obviously if pups don't pick up quickly you would need to insist they rearrange.

That's a good idea, bucksmum, to inform new owners and let them decide if they want to take pup with runny poo or leave them here longer.  If it's still ongoing after whatever the vet does today, I'll do that.

Yes, it is incredibly stressful!!  I did think it was getting better until last night/this morning.  Metronidazole is what our older dog has to have, when she gets her giardia symptoms.  (Our vet says he doesn't think it's giardia but some inflammatory bowel issue.)  It is an incredibly powerful med and she got pancreatitis coming off it once and her incontinence problems started whilst she was on it too (could have been coincidence!). 

We made everyone wash their hands and cover shoes for the first 4 weeks, after that - since the pups are outside on our lawn, eating ground(!) and grass, it seemed a bit overkill to ask people to take shoes off, but maybe we should have. 

I think it's more like they picked something up from being out on our lawn.  I just hope our older dog didn't have giardia and the pups haven't picked that up - I kept everyone off the lawn for 2 months after her last suspect poo, I ripped up all the grass and ground that had been pooed on and with the hot weather too, which is supposed to dry out giardia cysts, you'd think that was long enough...

Vet is on his way...

I had a puppy poo-cano in a litter and synulox made a difference in a few hours, we put it down to them interacting with pigeon poo in the garden and we kept them away from the area under the trees after that, let the puppy buyers know and it's their decision.

I have nothing much useful to add, but wanted to add my voice to the well-wishers. Hopefully your vet will be able to turn things around for you quickly.

I would definitely let the owners know, because worrying about that aspect is an extra load on you you don't need on top of round the clock poo-removal and general worrying over them all. It needn't necessarily mean people can't pick up, and I would imagine any antibiotic would be finished, more of a heads up so they know and you can stop worrying about trying to have everything perfect before then.

Best of luck to you, I hope the vet gets you all sorted.

Ok, the vet's been and gone - haven't seen this vet before but we really liked him.  He spoke out loud and reasoned through all the options.

He said in an ideal world, he'd probably do a faecal sample and then either prescribe something based on that, or 'let it run its course' - but because they are going to new homes in a week's time, and he understands we need to get it cleared up by then, he said there wouldn't be time to do the faecal sample, get results back and finish treatment before then.

So he has prescribed 5 days of Synulox (definitely wasn't metronidazole), and we're picking it up later today along with some Canikur in a syringe.  He said it's safe in young puppies this age and broad spectrum, and we should see improvement within 3 days if it's going to work.  He asked us if we wanted to give a steroid injection to reduce inflammation in the colon, but we said no to that and it didn't sound essential in his eyes anyway.

He said he didn't think it was giardia as we'd see more systemic symptoms as a result of that (blood in poo, vomiting, lethargic etc) - although from what MamaBas says, her dog with giardia just had runny poo and no other symptoms.  He said they are bright and not dehydrated and he's not worried in any way.  Anyway, let's hope it works.  (They actually are a bit sleepy this morning, but I think that's because they all had their first ever bath at 6.30am and then were complaining about being damp for hours before settling down again!)

Next question:  Assuming this works and it's all cleared up by the time they go... I am doing the 4wks free PetPlan insurance and I bet when I set it up, it's going to ask me if they have seen a vet for anything already, and then that will be excluded... I feel sorry that new puppy owners might have gastro upsets excluded from their policy - maybe forever - but I guess I have to declare it, right?

The insurance thing is very tricky. I am against actively lying to puppy owners but admit I have far less compunction about lying to robbing insurance companies....

I'm just worried it will ask who my own vet is, and then if any puppy owners put a claim in, that they will phone my vet to check the pup wasn't seen for it before at my vet... ???  Anyone with more experience of the insurance thing know?

Given that insurers will wriggle out of paying out if they can I think you could have a problem there - and I don't have the answers about that other than perhaps have a word with your vet?

Yes, Frankie was otherwise showing no signs re his Giardia but he was older, 4 months.  He just kept having these runny stools, sometimes with a bit of blood.   He certainly wasn't lethargic.    He was treated initially with Panacur which didn't hit the Giardia so on to the Metronizadole which again, he had no problems with.    And finally it worked.

If I were you, I'd REALLY not let these puppies leave you until you've had a week or so with normal stools.    In these days of litigation (!!) the last thing you need is to let them go, whether or not the new owners are aware, and then have them come back at you.   At least you need to find out what IS going on with them first, I'd suggest.

Synulox is an often used antibiotic and should work if this is a bacterial problem.    Ditto with Canikur.     It's interesting re them being outside.   Years ago with our second Basset who came to us in perfectly good health at 10 weeks.   We only had a small outside paved area which he was out on but quite soon after he came to us, he went down with something dire.   Had Parvo not been around at that time, I'd have said that was what he had.   The ONLY thing he might have got into was bird droppings.   And birds carry E-coli!!!    Our other hound was being taken out on the local Common so it's also possible he walked something in.   The puppy recovered but not before we'd had to leave for overseas and he went back to his breeder to 'get right' which took 4 months before he was fit enough to join us.

As for removing shoes - this was common practice overseas, so although it's not done much in the UK, asking people to take their shoes off didn't seem odd to me

I am not a breeder but would.much prefer a delay  in picking up my pup than having to deal with anything that could still be wrong .I know u said some of the owners would need to change ferries but that is possible and if i were the breeder would much rather pass them over knowing all was now well. A few extra days with u would be my first thoughts. As for insurance it should be declared  when u do the application .u can take a chance but if further things come up later you may have some very angry owners to deal with.I would actually speak to pet plan before u go any where .hopefully it will all be fine but will also depend on what the vet is going to put on the records too

Hope puppies start having relief in next few days.  Each buyer could be told and they could decide if they wish to collect still on time or postpone. ..

Not sure if a upset tum would be declared a condition re pet insurance?  Could ask them directly and chance it.  The owners doing their own insurance after a vet check from their vetcould then put no existing conditions?

Big hugs and I hope you get some deserved rest soonxxxx

When my littere were poorly I did tell the insurance company when I insured them but by then I had a copy for each new owner of the negative stool screening. The insurance company didn't make a big thing of the upset tums and I never heard back with any problems with any new owners having insurance paid out.

I know you haven't got time to get a stool screening done and get the report back but I would ask vet to come and visit once pups are firm and you can then say you have had them checked by a vet before leaving your premises. I would  also photo copy your bill from vet showing when they were treated and with what. This will also give the pups new vets info about what pup has been treated with.

Another option is to have to stools tested and if pups have recovered let them go but if anyone rings you with a reoccurrence you will able to help them.

I found that when honest with future owners they are very understanding mine were very grateful that I kept them until they were firm again....  It is also a lot less stress being honest with everybody than trying to deal with it all on your own.

I think they will turn a corner quickly.... Pups seems to pick up,as quickly as they go downhill but if you are left with the odd softer stool you know your puppy owners will be prepared.

Good luck

Pet plan ask some basic questions and nothing to do with your vets. Mine had a vet check before going to their homes and set up insurance upon collection while owners were here.  Easy as that and takes a matter of minutes to phone up and set in place

I too would make sure the whole litter have a vet check before they go off to their new homes.

It looks like the Synulox is working!!! Almost solid poos after one dose, and no poos from any of them since 8pm now.

I'll email new owners tomorrow to let them know but it looks like they will be ok.

On the downside, my husband is more unwell with runny poo and nausea and debating him going to doctor - and our older dog has got it again after I thought I'd fixed her with Yudigest Plus. Which I've put her back on.

If your husband has a temperature, the runs and vomiting then the chances may be high that it is campylobactor, I had this about 10 years ago from visiting a house with puppies and I have never felt so bad, the doctor said that it would pass on it's own eventually and antibiotics would not help.  Lots of fluids, TLC and paracetamol for a high temperature, mine went up to 105 and I was hallucinating!

Keep your husband well away from the puppies and try to segregate the adult dog that's not well, fingers crossed for you that the two are not related and everyone will be ok in a short while.

He definitely had a fever and was pouring sweat last night. He's spent the day in bed and lying on the sofa. He has the runs, no vomiting but nausea.

Then I got a migraine this evening (tiredness, stress & heat!!!) so now I'm in bed for an hour but my sumatriptan has kicked in and I'm ok & about to get up!

Our other adult dog unusually said she needed to go out to toilet right after we got back from a walk & strained and just did a few drops of mucous a couple times. The oldest dog did a soft but formed poo on the walk and nothing since.  I think they will be ok with more Yudigest Plus...

I've spent the day disinfecting door handles and taps....!!  The only one of the household who's entirely ok (and waiting her evening training session in the field), is mum of the pups!

How are the pups now? I'm guessing they are much better being that tyouve taken them out and about to fields and training classes.

The pups are fine and the vet has said he is happy to write a letter to say they can go to their new homes and he has checked them.

They haven't been to training classes (?), and they have only been in our private field which is no different to our garden.

I've been wa5ching some of their progress on your fb page for the pups. Very cute pups. Saw them in a training hall, or looked like it anyway. 
Glad they are all good now and ready to head off to their new lives over the next week :)