Well, as many of you know, my lad has had an itchy tummy for several weeks.  Malaseb takes it down then a few days later it flares up again...

NOW I AM ITCHING!  Only my scalp/under my wedding ring/between two fingers at the moment but it is like FIRE.  Last night was torture.  No visible rash that i definitely haven't inflicted myself by scratching, but it's hard to see on my scalp obviously.

So now he has another vet appointment on Monday because i am concerned that he has given me mange :/  I know it won't last in me (though i suppose if it IS that he will keep reinfecting me until we resolve it) but i am dreading a negative scraping, a reluctant vet and another few weeks of this.  He was chewing himself silly last night and i wanted to rip all my hair out and rub salt on my skull by this morning...  My garden is a fox highway, despite the measures we've taken to keep them out, so that is the likely source of infection if it is sarcopsis.

Pray for us!  Can humans use malaseb?  Haha!

To add insult to injury i took him for his usual run on the field this morning and part of the way there he snatched a foot up suddenly.  I couldn't see anything so kept going, by the time we got to his usual place to run about "off lead" (on a training line) he was visibly limping.  Checked the paw again and he whined softly and tried to gently chew at my hands in objection.  Headed home again immediately at a sedate pace, by the time we got in the limp was completely resolved again!  Just malasebbed his feet/tummy and it looks like he's trodden on a stone as there is a small bruise up between the pads.  Typical.

Oh well, we had a good game of "find it" with the sausages i was going to use for recall practice in the garden.  Dogs, eh?  And also, i guess, humans!

Have you both tried antihistamines?

He had antihistamines for a week (prescribed along with the malaseb) and they made no huge difference.  I haven't because i only have his piriton in the house (4mg old fashioned version) and i can't take it and drive in case of drowsiness.  I'll pick some up today.

Mange mite  is scabies in humams  so careful and the treatment is similar to malesab but don't use it .have u bathed him in malesab with or without gloves as it could be a contact allergy to malesab . If u are off to tell vet ask him to check for sarcoptic mange hopeful not demodex given he is a healthy boy.

I have bathed without gloves but i have been using malaseb for two weeks now and the worst itching is on my scalp (obviously don't use that to wash him!) and started last night.  I do have a bit of rash on each forearm but higher up than the malaseb reaches when i bathe him.

Reasons i think it might be sarcoptic mange:
He seems to get suddenly very itchy with a fresh load of bumps every 3 weeks, the itching calms a little in between but is always there. 
The malaseb takes the itch down for a few hours but the bumps gradually go down over a few weeks, only to have almost healed before the next lot appear. 
This is his 3rd flare up (about 9 weeks from the first) and each time the new bumps are more numerous and close to where the last ones were.
I am itching like mad on my scalp and i am TERRIBLE for scratching my head absentmindedly, so though i am washing my hands thoroughly after examining his rash/washing him etc. it is very likely i have scratched myself before doing so.
I was recently bitten by midgies, i thought, but when wearing long sleeves which seemed mysterious to me, bites were small bumps with intense itching, which got worse over a few days until i'd scratched the skin right off.
This morning at 3am i was standing in my kitchen because both my kids had had me up, and saw a mangy looking patchy fox jumping over our garden fence - there is a muddy patch exactly there, where the foxes jump out night after night.  The bitches bring their cubs to play on our lawn while they hunt/scavenge nearby.

I am not worried if i have caught scabies from him, because i have read it is self-limiting - the mites can't breed properly on humans, they burrow, lay then die.  I am more concerned that the vets seemed very reluctant to consider it last time and didn't do a scraping.

Vet appointment is Monday, earliest they had for non emergency, I will certainly be saying all this!

Malaseb (sorry if this has been said before) is very drying, stripping skin & coat of natural oils. Glad to hear it's giving him some relief but when you bathe him with it rinse, rinse & rinse again as if 'any' left it can cause a vicious circle. Good Luck.

Again it's a bit early really but when we lived 'up east' we were badly affected with Harvest Mites.   You'll not see them easily individually, but they group in the divide between the toes, and at the base of the whiskers and are orangy-red.   They itch like mad, and when mine got these, SO DID I.   It's one good thing about not living in arable farming areas much as in place of these, we get Ticks.

http://www.bonniedogs.co.uk/blogpost.php?id=69&postname=Harvest-mites-on-a-dog

His toes and whiskers are unaffected. No orange specks and no foot chewing or licking. It is just his tummy/groin and, now, one ear (bump on the inner leather, inside ears are fine). In each spot where there was one bump three weeks ago there are now three.

Re scabies have it checked by your doctor it needs treating  as it's a right pain to get rid of and spreads like wild fire. It does need treating especially as if ur children catch  it it will go to others.apart pr how horrid ot will be for them .think abother vet visit and a skin scape may be in order.  If it is mange and u have foxes ring one of thje fox rescues and they will send u fox mamge treatment  for the foxes which will help to prevent anything getting to your dog

If it's fox mange then prepare for the long haul, a friend of mine who likes to feed the foxes has had years of vet trips with her dogs as they are continually being re-infested, maybe you could discourage them from coming in your garden, rolling in fox poo is not a regular pleasure either.

If i continue to itch then i will see my GP but dog mange, though it causes an initial itch in humans, cannot breed on us, so it will die off after a few weeks without treatment.  It's not human scabies i've given to him because he started itching 2+ months ago and me only this past week.  None of the children touch his itchy bits and he is only affected in a small area, and i was already boil-washing his bedding, keeping everything clean and malasebbing him so i doubt they will catch it.  I will keep an eye out.

I am concocting a fox-proofing plan right now!

Right after further reading from a number of sites who seem to vary in their info I stand half corrected lol yes it is transferable but self limiting as u said :) our sarcoptic mange appears to be a close relative which certainly isn't self limiting .said as I am not itching too !

Haha, yes i have googled EXTENSIVELY to feel this safe!  I am itching everywhere, psychologically i'm sure.  I have actual hives in some places though - these areas i suspect are mange.  I am horrified to have noticed two little wandering red tracks radiating from the "mosquito bite" that started up last week...YUK!

Has anyone ever had sarcoptic mange to deal with?  Should i arrange a second mortgage to pay for his treatment?  My only knowledge of it prior to this was from watching James Herriot as a child, where they always shook their heads sadly, donned gowns and PTS whichever poor unfortunate was afflicted...

Yes but years ago it involves baths in a particular shampoo all seemed to work well.oh yes and in a guinea pig .same treatment . I know we have agreed on humans but the treatment there is a body wash too. As for tracking mozzie bites out with the felt tip so u can measure what it's doing and off to docs if it gets worse for antibiotics .I was there last week same thing no idea what bit me though

Has anyone ever had sarcoptic mange to deal with?

Yes and it was cured with Stronghold -no baths needed. Cost a fortune to treat all my lot, but it went and never came back. This was from a puppy I'd taken in as a rescue.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/?id=-458352

The first dog I ever owned over 30 years ago was a rescue, he came with a tiny little open sore on the inside of his ear leather....I took him to the vet who gave him antibiotics and cream....within a few months he'd cost me hundreds of pounds on lotions, potions, pills, shampoos and vet visits, and he was almost hairless and constantly itching poor boy.

A friend suggested I take him to her vets in a nearby town, so off we tracked on the bus to the vet.
The vet took one look at him and said 'he's got sarcoptic mange, here's a bottle of benzyl benzoate, you can buy it over the counter for 25p from any chemist, there's no need to bring him back.'
I put the lotion on him, can't remember how often now, but his hair grew back and the mange never returned.

> benzyl benzoate,

This is what I used re Harvest Mites, now I remember!

We have had fox mange due to having working terriers. Despite the horror stories you read about it spreading so quickly we have always found if we isolated the affected dog we cleared it quickly and non of our other 12 dogs were affected. Our vet explained to us that unlike fleas it doesn't survive long off of the host so treat the dog and don't worry too much about the environment. Benzoyl Benzoate as mentioned before is a very effective, old fashioned treatment, we have used Organosphosphate dips (much to my horror,before they were banned) , Ivermectin ,although not licences for dogs can be used off license and is effective.... But I've also cleared it up with frontline.

Just another thought. Have you considered Cheytiella? I had this mite in a litter of pups and I got the most terrible ,itchy rash on me from it. Like Sarcopitc it is self limiting on humans but God it made me itch for a few days. Frontline spray sorts that one out .

Mange mite  is scabies in humams

Well if the treatment for scabies in humans is the same, the person has to completly cover every area of skin from neck down for appx 3 days, once each day, but, as far as I know scabies does not affect hairy places, i got them in S Africa when I was about 19 & thats what I/we had to do ( a group of us got them), they are a nightmare.
.

PN
NOW I AM ITCHING!  Only my scalp/under my wedding ring/between two fingers at the moment but it is like FIRE

HP
Based on the scabies ref, you need to go to the docs & get treatment >as well as a treatment for any close family members, at a guess it sounds like another head to toe cover treatment for humans, and if it's anything like scabies it is highly contagious, it needs dealing with as a matter of urgency, as regards your dog, well I do not know but >at a guess< he needs to be isolated from other dogs until this is long gone.

The above is written on the scabies episode a group of us had years ago, never forgotten
.

PN wrote:
Malaseb takes it down then a few days later it flares up again...

HP
I just checked out Malaseb & it says it is an >anti fungal< treatment.....if your dog has some kind of mite infestation then there is nothing written on the Malaseb litrature which says Malaseb is for mite elimination......maybe a second vets opinion is worth while
.
Links
1. Google search for dog mange
https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&q=dog+mange&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

2. Malaseb uses
http://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/prescriptions/m/malaseb-shampoo
.

> I just checked out Malaseb & it says it is an >anti fungal< treatment.....if your dog has some kind of mite infestation then there is nothing written on the Malaseb litrature which says Malaseb is for mite elimination......maybe a second vets opinion is worth while<br />.

Too right!    We use it on Bassets with Malassezia -  fungal infection.   And it's very harsh to the point I stopped using it, preferring to use DermOpt.

And if your vet suggested using this, that would also be a Yes from me re a second opinion.

Malaseb is an antibacterial and antifungal and was prescribed because at the time the vet thought it might be an allergy and wanted to clear up/avoid further secondary infection from his scratching/licking. My dog has had no problems at all with the malaseb and it eases his itching and speeds healing of his self-caused injuries. However obviously it's not getting to the bottom of the problem.

As previously covered Hethspaw, humans CANNOT contract scabies from dogs. They can have a one off itching rash, but the mites die after a few days on us and therefore no infestation can occur. Treatment for humans with dog mites is purely to ease the symptoms until the mites die of their own accord. I am finding the bites, if that's what they are, itch terribly for about 48 hours, then stop and heal.

Off to Google cheytiella!

I'm not worried about containing it too much. All the dogs he's had contact with either only had limited contact (sniff in the park, on-lead) or they played in my garden with him, where he has picked it up, and didn't themselves. I think the problem has been that we had a broken lawnmower for a time so at one point he was running through long grass where the mangy fox has run...

Will see what the vet says tomorrow.

PN
As previously covered Hethspaw, humans CANNOT contract scabies from dogs.

Who said they could??? no idea why your post above addressed me????

PN
'They' can have a one off itching rash, but the mites die after a few days on us and therefore no infestation can occur.

HP
Are you talking about scabies ("They") or are you talking about whatever your dog/you might have now???
.

I addressed it to you because you posted:

>HP
>Based on the scabies ref, you need to go to the docs & get treatment >as well as a treatment for any close family members, at a guess it sounds like another head to toe cover treatment for humans, and if it's anything like scabies it is highly contagious, it needs dealing with as a matter of urgency, as regards your dog, well I do not know but >at a guess< he needs to be isolated from other dogs until this is long gone.

My "they" referred to canine sarcoptic mites, which is what i think my dog has now.  The mites ARE related to human scabies mites just not closely enough for them to manage to infest humans.

Poor boy is terribly itchy today, though otherwise in good spirits.  Piriton has made no difference and the one lump on his ear leather has become three overnight :(

PN
I addressed it to you because you posted:

>HP

>Based on the scabies ref, you need to go to the docs & get treatment >

HP
I was/did making an analogy........hence >HP wrote.."and if it's anything like scabies"
.

Right well, as i said, it is very like scabies except that it is self limiting and thus requires no treatment.

Well, post-vet update.

Vet looked at his itchy bits and mine, listened to my suspicions, had a good look at him all over and then concluded that yes, it seems that sarcoptic mange is the next most likely thing to investigate.  We had a chat about the various options, and they took several skin scrapings (after warning me that they are generally not hugely accurate for diagnosing) and decided to forego the blood test (since it only indicates exposure and thus won't help us to decide if it's currently the problem or not) and he is having 2 months of Stronghold to see if that helps.  The vet said i could take a trip to the GP if i continued to itch and see if they have any way to tell what it is.  He got his first Stronghold there and they are going to phone me with the scraping results later this afternoon.

I was not advised re: other dogs/training/washing yet, she said she'd clarify everything when she called and to wait for the scraping results first.

So it looks likely i have mange

fingers crossed something comes up in the scrapes. Not something you want but it gets to the point where  you just need a diagnosis and  a resolution . I would for now treat as mange and give training etc a miss and avoid other dogs for now. I know with us its still shampoos and body wash.

That's exactly it, i don't WANT it to be mange, but i just want to end this for him now.  As the weeks go by it is spreading and spreading and he is getting more and more frantic in his attempts to scratch and chew at himself.  At the moment he still has his lovely coat with no bald areas (all the "attack" has been on his tummy and inner ear leathers where the hair is sparse anyway) and i want it to stay that way, you see dogs with skin problems that have totally wrecked their coats, i don't want that for my poor lad.  I still need to talk to the vet re: training etc. as the stronghold treatment is 2, a month apart, and she said some dogs are itching less in days, others take 6 weeks to see any effect, a few don't respond at all and need other treatments entirely...i mean am i going to be away from training for MONTHS then?  Whatever the vet says, i will be in touch with my trainer anyway.  I feel so sad for him, i will probably have to go without him this week, but he would have received his foundation certificate, and he's SUCH a good boy with his training. :(

both of mine have allergies one of which it affects his body skin, the other ear infections. Yes I have seen what itching and chewing does . my boy lost nearly a 3rd of his coat on his back while we were trying to control the hotspots .
Hope you get some answers and as you say speak to the trainer as if it is manage its flipping contagious. you should be able to have his certificate anyway even if you are a week short I am sure that can be added once he is sorted.
Perhaps some one to one training, more expensive I know ,if you do have to drop back for now

I'm pretty sure he's already passed all his assessments anyway, just that they give the certificates out on the last week.  We did our 10 second stay and recall-with-a-distraction last week, i'm sure that was "it" in terms of his testing, i will need to email and ask but the vet told me to await the results as if the scrapes are negative they aren't giving a diagnosis but treating as part of an elimination.

It could not be fleas from the fox? My sister in London has had a nightmare of a time with fox fleas.She is still unable to enter the back garden without getiing bitten 18 months after the foxes----a litter.....were ejected. Her dog cannot use her lovely garden either. Both of them came up in itching lumps, but she could see the fleas leaping onto her as she set foot in the back garden. even the gardener refused to come.

He had Advantage 3 weeks ago and the vets both said definitely not fleas?  Maybe they could jump on and off and not stay on though, they would die soon after biting him.  I have to say the kids are in the garden 10 hours a day and only one has anything like my itchy bites.  Given they are often out their half naked i'd expect to see more bites if it were fleas out there.

Chatted a lot with the breeder today and am back to feeling like it must be a contact dermatitis of some kind - it's ONLY on the sparsely haired bits, and especially the edges of his tummy (where his saliva wetting takes the longest to dry).  I have just boil washed all his vet bed squares with an extra rinse in the cycle, but i'm tempted to rewash them without any detergent at all now (currently use non-bio but one can still react to that, it's just less likely).  He's currently eating a beef trachea chew and is happy as larry.

Maybe the Stronghold will work.  Does anyone know/have experience of how long it might take to see a difference?  Vet seemed to think it could take both treatments (next is in 4 weeks time) to clear it, but surely it will improve sooner than that if all the adults are killed in the next few days?

sorry no idea but does it tell you anything helpful on the website. I take it the results for mange were negative? My next step would be a derm referral . I remember you saying he is insured and as he has skin issues on the records it wont make any difference and the one I has been worth her weight in gold

for re washing try white vinegar

We didn't do the blood test, but the scrapings were negative.  But then only 30% are positive in proven cases anyway.  The website tells you the dosage but not what to expect. Googling seems to show that some dogs took 6 weeks to recover and others were improving in 5 days.  Clear as mud.

I'm not going for a derm referral yet, i'm going to wait and see how he goes.  If he was an adult i think i'd be quicker off the mark but he's so young, and puppy skin is so sensitive, i have a feeling this could all blow over with something as simple as a change in washing powder or of season.

Advocate will treat both sarcoptic and demodectic and other parasites and worms