We have bitch who's 52 days after first mating , she is a bull breed now as we all aware they are nortorius for needing a c-section
Now the stud dog owner has suggested free whelping my bitch, I have whelped before just not this breed , I am as you can imagine unsure , what I
Wondered is there anybody who successfully done it , obviously my stud owner has 5 times my bitch is from a free whelped mum and the stud I used was a smaller stud dog( not the massive sized bull)
My vet is aware of the circumstances and will be aware of when she starts whelping.
Any advise pls

As you know how whelping should go certainly you should ideally let the bitch if she can, but be ready to get vets help if needed and have Vet on standby.

Your girls breeder should be of help seeing as her dam self whelped.

Thank you , that's what I think , but I guess it's the fear of the Unknown

Face that with every whelping bred 23 litters and they are all different.

Have had bitches in first stage for 36 hours and then produce a full litter in jut over an hour, had a bitch show no first stage go straight to whelping but took 4 hours between each puppy, though last was stillborn.

Also everything in between.  Had 3 C sections, two after at least one pup born and one just felt was taking too long in an older bitch on last litter.

Have also has stillborn pups, between live, and full live litters.

What an tragedy that any breed should be known as almost always needing a c-section, it may be an unpopular view but I believe that the majority of bitches should be able to mate and whelp by themselves otherwise surely breeders need to be looking at what they are doing to the breed concerned.  The KC's "fit for function" should surely also extend to breeding as well as the outward signs of unfitness, it would be very interesting to see statistics for the level of c-sections within the various breeds as the numbers seems to be climbing ever upwards, subjecting bitches to major surgery just in order to have puppies cannot be seen as routine and justifiable.

Sorry to have gone off on the subject and back to the topic, I would let your bitch whelp naturally but keep the vet on standby in case she needs to go to surgery, good luck with your whelping.

> Sorry to have gone off on the subject and back to the topic, I would let your bitch whelp naturally but keep the vet on standby in case she needs to go to surgery, good luck with your whelping.

So would I - and did.   The trouble with natural vs C.Section is as was the case with a few of mine, they'd go to secondary inertia not because of the size of the puppies etc., but because as soon as pain was felt, it was ouch mum - shut down.   Fit for function yes, but sometimes it's mind over matter, with some bitches/breeds.

And then there are those breeders who let the bitch go to term + and then opt for a C.Section 'because it's more convenient'.   Rather like women!!

Thank you , That almost what I said when I first decided to breed our dog, and before pregnancy at the Beginning I was 100%  natural but as it gets closer and friends(?) are finding stories of bitches that have died etc I guess it put the fear of God into me.
Our bitch is in good health only been vets for the normal stuff injection worming etc , breathing never been and issue , I choose a small stud,just incase. I have everything prepared for a natural whelp but I was hoping someone who's been there done that ( other than my stud lady )could give me advice

> What an tragedy that any breed should be known as almost always needing a c-section,

Couldn't agree more.

It's one reason that the Kennel club have made it policy that no bitch should have a litter after a second C section, and won't register a litter after two Sections.

I think that is fair enough as the need for an emergency C section can be varied and nothing to do with the conformation of the dog.

I have an easy whelping natural breed yet have had two C sections, in both cases these were third and last litters, and previous litters delivered naturally.  On was a malpresentation with one pup already born, the other was a very protracted first stage labour and a tired older bitch with weekend looming, so pros and cons weighed.

> but as it gets closer and friends(?) are finding stories of bitches that have died etc I guess it put the fear of God into me.

Sadly though bitches and pups can also be lost with C sections, birthing is dangerous in any species.

Until modern science intervened with monitoring sections etc the most likely cause of a woman's death was child birth.  Of course many women were either pregnant or breast feeding throughout their fertile years and sooner or later it killed them.

Hear hear mixedpack.

> It's one reason that the Kennel club have made it policy that no bitch should have a litter after a second C section, and won't register a litter after two Sections.

Just to ask whether, if your bitch needed a C.Section, for whatever reason, whether you'd tell, or have to tell, the KC?    Also I didn't put my bitches in whelp again if they had just one C.Section I'm afraid.  But rarely did I need to take a second litter from any of mine in any case.

Just to ask whether, if your bitch needed a C.Section, for whatever reason, whether you'd tell, or have to tell, the KC?

You have to state on the registration application if there was a c-section, and if it was, whether an elective one or emergency. Of course people can lie, but you can't register pups without answering the question.

and of course the Vet is supposed to inform the KC too, but it seems there are vey few Vets reporting, most of the reports are from the owners.

> Also I didn't put my bitches in whelp again if they had just one C.Section I'm afraid.

Me too, I felt that it wasn't a responsible move to risk a second section.  Why would I want to put my bitch through that a second time?  I'm with MamaBas on this one.

I think it would depend on the reason for the initial C-section. One of my bitches had a really big litter of 15, 2 pups got were trying to be born at the same time so she had to have a C-section. I'd say that was bad luck. If it was inertia, I would not risk it happening again.

Both my girls sections was for their last litter, so I have never had to decide on whether to risk another litter

> and of course the Vet is supposed to inform the KC too, but it seems there are vey few Vets reporting, most of the reports are from the owners.

Well it has been a good number of years since our last litter now     And I guess vets would think twice about 'ratting' on their clients especially if the need for a C.Section was to save the life of mum and her unborn puppies!

Actually the BVA has instructed that they do so (as it's Vets that pushed for KC to restrict the number of litters).

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/54479/1/vets_urge_kc_to_make_policy_changes_tougher

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/54662/1/bva_president_urges_vets_to_report_litters_born_by_c_section

"From January 27 vets have been able to report the births of litters born by caesarean section following recently agreed changes to the declaration which breeders must sign when registering a litter with the KC. To allow vets to report such operations, an additional section has been incorporated into the form which is completed to notify the KC of any operation which alters the natural conformation of a registered pedigree dog.  At the same time vets will be reminded of the policy regarding reporting of operations which alter natural conformation and will be encouraged to report these to the KC.
  “The BVA and the British Small Animal Veterinary Association are urging vets to engage with the new reporting system as part of the profession’s commitment to improving dog health and welfare,” Mr Locke wrote in the Veterinary Record."

Part of the problem is that in an emergency they then don't go back into notes to do it, and also most vets seem to register the dogs under pet names only.

I have had to insist that they do them under their proper KC name and Pet name, which they do very grudgingly.

There was a more recent report of numbers reported and by whom, but can't find it using dog World search engine.

Here we go more recent:

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/79318/1/don%E2%80%99t_forget_to_report_caesareans,_kc_reminds_vets_ Created: 17/09/2012

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/148687/1/vets_to_report_caesareans_online Created: 18/11/2015

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/156573/1/most_vets_reporting_caesareans_and_surgeries,_says_bva Created: 15/04/2016

My bitch has just been mated for hopefully her second litter. The first was an emergency csection in the middle of the night, due to two puppies 'wedged'. I thought long and hard about having a second litter, natural or section, it will be her final litter.

My vet never mentioned anything about reporting the section, though I did report it when I registered the litter.

> ... and also most vets seem to register the dogs under pet names only.

None of the vets we have used over the years, has registered ANY of our hounds under their KC (or CKC when out there) registered names.  It's always pet name.   But I'm not breeding now, so it doesn't matter!!

How the world changes, daily and often NOT for the better in my opinion.   I understand re doing C.Sections other than in an emergency, but when it's mum/puppies vs losing them ... ???

But no-one suggests not doing C sections, but they should not be elective, but truly for emergencies, and selecting against needing them by selecting for self whelping.

I would hope no-one would want to put a bitch through another litter if both prior litters resulted in sections, but understand a second litter after one, as so many non hereditary reasons for one.

Many US breeders have an elective C-section if they find out there is a singleton puppy in there by x-ray.  I just don't like the way all this is going, with the over-medicalisation of whelping.

Also some do it if a weekend is looming as Vets there don't have to provide out of hours and many of the emergency only vets are crap.

Vets are also useless at identifying breeds, I could have said mine was a Lesser Spotted Argentian Hound dog or a cross and they wouldn't have known any different.

Another case of ethical breeders will do the right thing and the rest won't.

Well this http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/156573/1/most_vets_reporting_caesareans_and_surgeries,_says_bva pretty much proves it, the number reported by breeders compared to vets, yet vets saying they have reported, not being very truthful then are they.

"Between January 1, 2010 and January 1 this year, 15,416 owners reported caesarean sections to the KC and vets 364. A total of 588 were reported by both. Between the same period 2,921 conformation-altering surgeries were reported, 77 of them by vets. "

"Sixty per cent say they are reporting ‘at least some’ conformational surgery – 40 per cent are not – and 65 per cent are reporting caesarean sections to the KC. Nineteen per cent rarely report the latter and 15 per cent never do.

  The 15 per cent which does not cited ‘time’ as the main reason."

Well guys first of all I would like to say a massive thank you for everyone input even if it go slightly of course lol
Anyway we are the proud owners to 7 , bull pups sadly although she went into labour in her own she progress nicely , but within 10  minutes of her pushing she produced a black/green  filled water sack
We whipped her to the vets where they HAD to preform an emergency c-section one of the pups had passed at the top of the horn and was as he described flat? , anyway to
Add to this he said in his belief he doesn't believe the issue were breed related and it could of been any breed in his surgery ,
Our baby girl is doing really well considering., as much as I am sad about the situation , and last night I was kicking my self about not booking a section I guess we will never know if the out come could of been different.
Anyway thanks again for your help

but within 10  minutes of her pushing she produced a black/green  filled water sack

This is entirely normal before the first pup is born.

My stud dog lady didn't think so it was black with green specks in it ,
( sorry tht sounded rude I didn't mean it to sound rude ) she was mentoring me so I went with her,