I've read a lot of past posts on this, and we are aiming to feed 4x a day and then let mum in to top up if she wants.

Our pups were 4wks old yesterday.  They are all plump and doing well but we're not sure we're doing this right.

I am mixing up about 200ml of Royal Canin Babydog milk and then squishing up half a packet of NatureDiet Puppy into it.  It is pretty liquidy.  This is for 7 large breed puppies.  They eat it enthusiastically to begin with but then get distracted or wander off (despite being put back at the bowl).  It's not really that much food, but most of the time they don't even finish this and I end up scraping it and chucking it away - feel like I'm wasting a lot of food.  They do seem to lap the liquid up more than eat the squished solids.  We're on our last bag of RC Babydog and I'll just be using squished ND with some warm water after that.

Any time mum comes into the room, they go crazy for her milk.  She is probably feeding them 2-3 times a day and I'm not sure how often at night.  I wish mum could hang out with them more, teach them manners, play with them, interact with them - but any time she is on the horizon, she is just a milk bar and it's hard for her to relate to the pups in any non-feeding way.

We just had our first weaning pen escapee today, so we have to put the taller door on the weaning pen now and I don't think mum will be able to get in/out unless we let her.

Questions:

- We don't seem to be making any progress, having started this a week ago.  We are using the same amount of RC and ND Puppy, they don't seem to be eating more of it.  They seem to use mum for nutritional needs, even though we are not letting her in just before meal times and trying to use her as a top-up.  Are things going to just progress by themselves or should we be doing something differently?
- What do we do at night, if mum can't get in the weaning pen because the door has to be taller now?  Do we set an alarm to let her in during the night?  At 4wks, should they be able to go through the night, and what hours would that be?  (Currently doing last feed at midnight and then at 8am.)  Or should we be getting up in the night to make a feed of milk and solids?

Thanks!

I can't answer your questions, but would like to make a comment on mum teaching puppies manners etc, this is just from an observation I made with my pup and her mum.
I first saw the puppies at five weeks. They were well grown and had good thick coats, so they were outside in a purpose built run and as the weather was very hot, they stayed there at night. Mum could only get in if the gate was opened for her and the pups didn't have access to her unless she asked to go in. She only went in to check round to see if there was anything edible and gave the pups a brief suckle for a few minutes.
I visited several times and mum was either not around or didn't really bother with the pups that much. Every evening if it wasn't raining, the puppies and their mum were let out together into a field for a run round and explore.
When I went to pick her up at 8.5 weeks, she had spent the night in the house with some of the other adult dogs to get used to being in the house again. I had left an old towel and a soft toy with the breeders so that she would have a familiar smell in her new home. The toy was on the floor and the mum picked it up and lay there holding the toy and watched what my pups reaction would be. Pup started to approach to take the toy, but mum went very still and stiff, hardly any change really and easy to miss, but I spotted it. Pup did too and backed off with her ears back and low, then carefully made a large detour round mum who carefully watched the pup.
It was only a small thing really, but somewhere along the line, mum had instilled some manners into her pup despite not being continuously there all the time.

Gosh, I don't think I'd conclude that mum had instilled manners so much as mum resource guards...!

At this age I was weaning pups onto their kibble soaked in warmed goats milk, raw minced beef (frozen then defrosted) and tinned rice pudding. I used large plastic plates and more often than not you couldn't see the plates for puppies. I change over to individual bowls at 6 weeks old. Mum always was given the left overs to finish off, so no waste. If they are nicely plump then you are obviously on the right track. My girl had stopped night time feeds by5 weeks and, with my breed, the litter was moved into our front room to integrate with the rest of the adult pack( under close supervision) to learn manners and would be looking at going outside a lot by 6 weeks.

4 - 4 1/2 weeks my pups are goi9gn stir crazy and need to go outside, where I have a 6 x 10 foot puppy run roofed in with one of those large plastic dog houses.  A barrier across the open doorway allows Mum and other adults to go in and out of the pen, but pups can't get out so adults and Mum have some peace from the pups for a while yet.  Pups are brou8ght into the indoor pen each evening and when I am cleaning the outside pen, and mum is able to access them. 

At this age she pretty much does as Rabid has described feeding wise.  I simply give the amount of food I think they will clear, and Mum gets to eat what is left, so no food is wasted.  Mine only get a 1/4 pint of puppy milk per pup, so at most 1/2 pint per meal, but this age the dry food is only soaked not mashed, and with the increasing volume of the dog food (I don't increase the puppy milk at all, and by 5 weeks if pups motions are getting  bit too soft cut it back even more, so by 6 weeks no more milk formula is given.  As weaning progresses the ability of the puppies to digest milk decreases.

I simply increase the amount of food per meal based on puppies appetites, and as mien are fed to appetite the6y do often wander off mid meal and I pick the food up after half an hour.  I do not subscribe to individual bowls, mien all share from a couple of flat pans, and with there never being a lack of food don't even have issues of food guarding etc.

Something I have found in warm weather is that the second and third meals are often eaten with little or no enthusiasm.  My first meal is 8am and last at 10anm, and if they haven't been eating well in the warm part of the day I will leave down a bowl of dry food for them at night.  Of course they have access to plenty of water to drink, I use the Large Road refresher Bowl, finding that way it stays unspilled an uncontaminated.

As for Mums interaction with pups, as others have noted at about 4 - 6 weeks it seems the kind of dash in and leave, but once weaning is pretty much complete from a volume basis from 6 weeks Mum, and the other adults start interacting with the pups more an from choice.  At this age they are usually able to get out of my puppy outdoor run, unless I shut the gate during their meals.

They are then free to use the whole dogs area, and interact with my other dogs including Mum (though some choose to spend minimum time out with the baby sharks. 

I do find at this stage they learn a lot, and that al dogs do not allow the same liberties, some will play some will turn a lip growl and snap if pushed to far.

I have found the litters that I have had since I have had more than just the mother of a litter seem to be much more dog savvy and confident/respectful than my first litter with just Mum, and believe those last two weeks interacting with the entire home pack really are very useful to them.

> Gosh, I don't think I'd conclude that mum had instilled manners so much as mum resource guards...!

Oh no I have often found my girls set pups up in such situations, being harder on the pushy pups and encouraging less forward ones, same with rough play gently coaxing some and flattening over boisterous ones.

I'm glad you said that Brainless. I didn't feel it was resource guarding at the time, Rabids answer made me stop and think a bit though. I did feel the mum was teaching the pup a little lesson. If it was RG then it's certainly not been inherited by this pup who has shown no signs of it, happily handing over a bone when asked - always politely asked though.

I guess the question would be if mum would behave the same, if it were any other dog approaching. If so, then it would be less about teaching manners and more about the mum's preferences as far as other dogs taking her stuff.

Right, we do have a giant playpen outside with different stuff in it and they go in there for at least half the day - it's covered by an apple tree so in shade and we sit out there and watch them. They come into the rest of the house and interact with the other dogs several times during the day. Although they're just sniffing at the moment and my attempting to play with the big dogs.

I guess it's more that I don't feel we're making progress with the weaning. I've decided to half the milk from tonight so it is less liquidy and encourages them to chew more. I feel like they are just licking the slop rather than biting it if that makes sense. They all have their razor sharp teeth now...

It's lovely watching them isn't it. I have to confess that I would be in that pen with them as couldn't keep my hands of the scrummy puppies.  So many videos and photos of them all over me. Just brought back many lovely memories. Thank you

My lot are refusing a 4th meal at the moment so we are sticking to 3. I have tried 4 a couple of times but they just wander off. They are getting around 100g - 125g per meal each and I used 1/2 pint of goats milk to turn it into salmon mousse consistency. For the past week or so I have been adding an egg to 2 of the meals so they had moved on to their 2nd type of protein. This week I shall be introducing turkey properly and lamb. I have also switched their 3rd meal to actual meat strips so they are learning to chew and rip. As their weight goes up - so will the amount they eat so that they are getting around 10% of their body weight.

We are feeding in separate bowls and there is little to no waste and they are learning not to eat out of each other's bowls. Mum didn't go in at all last night and I sense this is her cut off point. She fed them last thing before light's out at 10.30 and then went back in at 5.30 this morning.

They are hot and now have 2 fans (one desk, hanging over the side of the pen and one pedestal on the side) alongside the AC! Room temperature without the AC yesterday got to 29 degrees. I have a builder in repairing the bodge job of the last guy so mine haven't gone outside in a group yet but have been carried outside and had a couple of outings in the car. Play pen is ready and waiting so they will have outside play time in the next couple of days. On a plus note. Schools broke up for the holidays last friday so the field is now all ours. Pups will be going out there to feel grass for the first time tonight :)

Right now they seem to be less puppy and more s******g machines!

I can report great success with less milk(!). They are now clearing the plate and I can finally increase the meat. Phew.

I guess it must be breed specific, but what you are talking about happening at 4 weeks (Mum teaching the puppies, playing with them, etc.) is unheard of in my breed.  Waaaaay too soon.  Mine are still getting their sea legs at 4 weeks and, at best, making a few passes at the solid food I have had the audacity to suggest they eat!  They look at me and say:  "Yeah, well, this is a joke, right?  Where's Mum The Milkbar?"

Well, mine still are doing that Nimue - I think they are getting maybe 20% of what they need from me, and the rest from mum. 

But now we've fixed this meat/milk ratio, hopefully that will change.

Mum has just started to play, it's very cute.  It can only happen once all the puppies are full up with milk and stop seeing her purely as a milk bar, and then they will play gentle mouth-fighting games with her, and mum just looks so happy doing it, it's lovely to watch.