This is probably a silly question. I am not a breeder, not planning a litter, I am purely curious.

I have read often on here that toy breed pups are so small that they should stay with mum longer, and not go "home" until 10 or even 12 weeks. I have also seen that toy breeds mature earlier and can be safely bred sooner than large breeds, as large/giant breed pups do not physically mature for 18-24 months thus extra care should be taken with their joints etc and breeding delayed until maturity.

So I guess I am confused about the different "types" of maturity. From the breeding/growth plate closure sort of maturity I would have expected toy puppies to mature faster and be ready sooner than large breeds, but the reverse us true? Is it a case of absolute size, rather than physical maturity? I can understand that a 4lb puppy would be vastly safer than a 2lb one in a new home. Or is there something else I'm missing?

The trouble with dogs is that the more you learn the more you want to know...

Having a small toybreed as well as a large breed, and in the past having bred pedigree cats for 25 years, I would say that toy puppies are far more like kittens than larger pups. They can be slow to wean, some not wanting solids until 5-6 weeks old (although others are happy to start early), and the mothers tend to feed them for much longer. At 8 weeks they simply are not ready to take the step into the big world as they still depend on their mother and their littermates. A toy pup is similar in maturity at 12 weeks to a large breed at 7-8 weeks. They GROW quicker, finish growing earlier, but growth and maturity are two very different things.

If anyone is keeping toy breeds past 8 weeks old, they really need to be sure they are socialising them as fully as they would if they had brought that puppy home as anew owner and in a 1-2-1 way.

I get really tired of seeing toy breed puppies in my classes who were kept on by breeders until 12wks and are then terrified of the world and big dogs. SO MANY of these in my classes, it makes me wonder if it's the right thing to keep them on longer to be honest. The socialisation period is just the same in toys as in other breeds, there's not some special dispensation for them....

I could be wrong, but I think I've read on here that many toy breed breeders associations insist upon 12 weeks with mum?

When I was a child (ahem, 1980's) one brought a puppy home at 6-7weeks and a kitten at 6-8weeks. Nowadays everyone seems to get then after 8weeks at least, which seems an improvement.

It's funny you should mention the social aspect though, as I've noticed in class the toy breeds are definitely more scared/aggressive than the bigger dogs, I wonder if the socialization is a factor? I'd always assumed it was because they were smaller than everyone else. And mine is a bit scared of bigger dogs (tentative approach with passive postures and submissive peeing though as soon as he ascertains they're friendly he's bowing to play!), though increasingly he is the biggest.

On the occasions I get toys into my playgroup at 8-9wks, they end up being as sociable and outgoing and confident with all dogs (including big dogs) as any other dog is.

Unfortunately I think toy dogs often get "babied" and this can contribute to them being kept on longer. They may be physically smaller and look less capable but psychologically they don't know their size...and have the same socialisation period as others.

I think it depends on the breeder - the breeders I have huge respect for on this forum whether toy breeds or other breeds socialise all their pups as much as is possible whilst they are still in their care and before they leave for their new homes. Never easy when one has a huge litter but they manage to do it.

> <br />Unfortunately I think toy dogs often get "babied" and this can contribute to them being kept on longer

You may find the handbag brigade babying dogs, but the people breeding toys for the right reasons don't do this (I refuse to sell pups to anyone under 40.)

My breed club would be very annoyed if I let my pups go before 12 weeks.  You have to abide by their rules.  It is important to note that my pups have extremely good recall when they leave me.   But then, they train with the Collies.  And play in the compost heap with the Collies too.  Most will have been to the seaside and met a whole load of noisy holiday makers.

People who breed larger dogs have no idea at all what they are about.  I have had bitches still feeding pups at 12 weeks, it's a whole different ball game to the experience you gain from breeding Collies (only used as a for instance.)  And people don't realise that these toy pups probably only weigh 500gm at 12 weeks.  So, from a safety point of view you have no idea what it's like.  Not you in particular rabid, I aim the information at any breeders who have never whelped 2oz pups.

But I certainly don't baby my breed in any way.  I could give plenty of examples that bear this out by the way. 

I get really tired of seeing toy breed puppies in my classes who were kept on by breeders until 12wks and are then terrified of the world and big dogs.

Hm well I have one problem toy who is scared of everything -her so called breeder let her go at 8 weeks, before she had developed any confidence at being without her mother.

The socialisation period is just the same in toys as in other breeds, there's not some special dispensation for them....

I disagree. They do NOT develop as larger breeds, which you will not know unless you've bred toy litters. Everything is slower. Overdo it at a young age and you get problems. Wait until they have grown a bit and developed confidence in general. Taking a small 8 week old toy out and about is similar to taking a 4 week old large pup out -they haven't learnt to deal with life at home yet. If born in the winter, they may for instance not have been outside until 5-6 weeks of age, whereas larger breeds can explore the outdoors at 4 weeks easily even in bad weather. I would guess that you've seen a fair few badly bred pups -temperament is after all to a very large extent genetic. Add owners who don't treat them like dogs and you will have problems.

I have several toydogs that I tried taking to training classes when around 12 weeks. All it did was terrify them. Too many people, too many (to them) giant dogs. Instead I waited and trained at home and when they were older, they were able to go to class with much more confidence.

Mine leave at around 12 weeks and are well know for their bomb proof temperament.
Temperament is a hugely inherited trait ...poor ones may be susceptible to fear issues and careful staged experiences may help this.
Put a lead on mine as 12 week olds and they come out like John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever.

Experienced breeders will have this sussed I'm sure, decades of breeding boxers which left home at 7-8 weeks with the same outcome shows me that my toy puppies are different in their development but their confidence as adults the same.

> The trouble with dogs is that the more you learn the more you want to know...

No kiddin' and that doesn't just apply to dogs !

FWIW  we didn't let our Bassets go home until they were 10 weeks unless we had a big litter where puppies could well do better, going to the right home, with a more individual attention.   And it would depend on how well the puppies were doing, as well as whether we knew the new owners and they were experienced.  Then we'd let them go after 8 weeks.   Not any earlier.   Obviously this is a medium to big breed.   But, and this is relevant, sensitive.   We had no problem keeping the mini-pack together to socialise for that bit longer.   Mums were usually well off the litter by 6 - 7 weeks however.

Small breeds tend to be 'there' far sooner than the big breeds.   Again with my own, when picking the most promising to run on, we could only go by what we saw (and experience of the stages of development!) at the point most of them would be going to their new homes.   And even then it didn't necessarily work out!    With my two buy-ins (and they were chosen more for their bloodlines which I needed than looks) one came to us at 7 months (male) and the bitch at 5 months.    And even then we were trusting to luck that either of them could be shown, eventually.  

Don't all dogs achieve growth plate closure at roughly the same time?   Only being around my one breed from a breeding/showing point of view, I never thought about that.   Again with a small dog you'd not have to worry about damage to a big heavy dog - stairs and Bassets ... a definite no-no!   My main breed was rather a nightmare in terms of the ugly ducking stages.  We had one male who I started showing at around 6 months, only to have to pull him until he was around 18 months as he started to look like 2 planks stuck together.   By age 2, he'd blossomed.  Mine was a slow maturing line but all the better for that as they tended to stay sound!

So I'd suggest this big vs small is quite involved, from a construction point of view mainly, but also temperamentally.   Again mine is a sensitive breed and so benefits from being taken slowly.   In all respects.

>They do NOT develop as larger breeds, which you will not know unless you've bred toy litters.

Where is the research, to show this?  There has been extensive research into dog socialisation periods, it's probably one of the largest areas studied in canine behaviour, with research dating back to the 1960s and onwards and all kinds of 'expose puppies to X at X age and what is the outcome?' studies.  None of these (that I'm aware of) have identified that there is a difference in the socialisation period of toy dogs...

Socialisation is tricky I think, my experience as a beginner is that I've read one thing but discovered another. For example I just took my boy for a wander in the park.

In amongst the many experiences of passing disinterested dogs and meeting friendly dogs we had one dog run aggressively growling and barking at us (a large black lab) who's owner did precisely nothing, not a word, not a look, nothing. Mine cringed behind my legs and whined, and once it got to us it just sniffed and then we moved on. The next was a mini schnau who sniffed nicely and then began running growling and snapping at mine's face while the owner stood limply by saying "oh I don't think he wants to play!" as I dragged my poor dog who was contorting to escape, out of reach. Both these dogs was off lead while mine was on (i know these situations are easier for them to cope with off lead but it's an unfamiliar park far from home and the chance he might run away in fear and get lost is too much of a risk). Interestingly we met another black lab and another schnau further on and mine greeted them without any apparent fear and had nice experiences (i had been really worrying he'd be horribly scarred by the experiences).

I do wish people would use the leads that they hold in their hands and actually attach it to the dog now and again.
I've always gone by the rule if the dog coming towards is on a lead then mine goes on to. My dog is very friendly and enjoys meeting other dogs, but even at the age of 3 years, still wants to play and given her size, I'm always careful with her choice of playmates. Or if the approaching people are elderly or very young, then on the lead she goes. I don't want her accidentally knocking a child or elderly person over because she is happy to meet them.
There could be a very good reason the approaching dog is on a lead. It could be recovering from an illness or operation, could be dog aggressive, could be frightened of other dogs or could be elderly and wants a quiet life. Why should they have to put up with out of control dogs bouncing all over them or behaving in an aggressive way, it's just not fair. So many people seem to be unable to recognise that their dog is either causing a nuisance or fear and seem totally inaffectual in training them.
Hopefully your pup, poodlenoodle, will have a strong enough character to be able to ignore badly behaved and rude dogs and grow up to be a well balanced dog. Stands a very good chance with you as his owner.

It is a real eye opener for me to realise how many people own dogs yet seem oblivious to their behaviour. To be fair the first aggressive dog's owner seemed very happy it behaved that way, he didn't even say anything to me (such as "he won't hurt you/your dog" as it ran 30yards snarling at us) just smirked. But the second owner seemed to have no clue that running growling and snapping at another dog's face isn't playing!

I'm afraid my dog is sort of at a disadvantage with me because he obviously has tons of potential, and I'm such an amateur. I just try to stay calm whatever happens and deal with things quietly. It is hard when someone arrives with three loose dogs who want to jump all over him and they just stand there saying " oh look at him leaping about, isn't he sweet?" while my dog tries desperately to cope with meeting 3 rambunctious strangers at once!  I'm sure he'll be calmer with age/experience anyway.

Oh that's awful having three of them jumping all over him, poor pup. Mine is a confident dog and copes well with lively dogs, but having three bouncing all over her would scare her too.

Don't put yourself down poodlenoodle, you may be inexperienced, but you are doing far more then many people do and you're looking for different ways to train him and keep him interested and out of mischief. We all were beginners once feeling out of depth with a clever dog in the house.

Where is the research, to show this?

You can prove or disprove anything with research. Nothing beats personal experience as a breeder and I am definitely not the only one who has noticed a huge difference in toy breed pups to bigger breeds. Why else do you think so many toy breed clubs has as a rule or COE that pups should not leave before either 10 or 12 weeks? Both I, JeanSW and tooolz have done/do breed BOTH toys and much larger breeds, so we DO have the first hand experience. And that's of 3 different toybreeds.

I think there is a huge cultural belief among at toy breeders that they shouldn't leave till 12wks, and that is why the breed clubs specify this. Some breed clubs used to specify that dogs must be docked. In the US, some specify they should be cropped. Where I live, our KC specifies no puppy (even large breed) should leave till 8wks - not 7wks. What clubs and organisations specify is not always based on science or best practice.

As for experience: I've been running socialisation sessions and training classes for 10 years now. That's a lot of toy dogs I'e seen, both at 8-9wks and at 12-14wks....

Where is it written?

Perhaps we should write it.

No there isn't! Mainly we keep them until 9 weeks of age, never much longer than that as they need the socialisation and interaction of their new family! Honestly,

I've been reading and following your posts and the trend of things you post just doesn't make sense? You ask seemingly silly really basic questions, then go lauding about how knowledgeable and experienced you are with the 'thousands' of dogs you've trained AND seem able to pass judgement about breeds you haven't bred or owned(possibly) The time they come to your hands they have already learnt far more than you think possible!

It has me wondering if you aren't about writing a book or articles for your fabulous breeding/training knowledge?! Are you?

Mostly this experience seems to be some sort of experiment and I truly think you might be as mad as a Cesar Milan!!!

Are you breeding to train one on or carry lines?  Keeping one?

As for experience: I've been running socialisation sessions and training classes for 10 years now. That's a lot of toy dogs I'e seen, both at 8-9wks and at 12-14wks....

That's vastly different from having bred and owned them, lived with them, having bought pups in at both a young and older age (for pups the youngest I bought -before I knew better- was 7 weeks, the oldest 14 weeks), kept pups you've bred yourself, seen how pups you've bred and sold at 12 weeks do in their new homes. You have none of that experience.

I had a Papillon pup once who would not eat solids until 8 weeks, and even then she was picky and mainly fed from mum, who absolutely had not even tried to wean her pups. Would you have sold her then?

I still have a lot of trouble with this idea of then socialization window suddenly closing.

I accept that the pre 16 weeks age is when pups absorb new experiences etc well, but learning and socialization never cease and a well socialized pup up to that age whobthen is isolated, say through injury/illness, or lack of owner input, will have issues/ deficits.

Having personal experience of having a 9 week old pup do 6 months quarantine, so no socialization outside the breeder and litter, and after that solitary confinement in quarantine with only myself and kennel staff as regular contacts until 9 months of age.

Inheritance and correct rearing resulted in confident ultra sociable well adjusted individuals on release from Q.

Yes they had things to learn, house training, acclimatize to traffic etc, but learnt these things at the same speed a 2 - 4 month old would.

The important thing is that the pups before homing are bred and properly reared (including age appropriate socialization).  This is one reason larger breeds which have larger  litters are  best to start being homed at 7 weeks + as the level of individual attention needs to increase, but a couple left longer will be able to get the level they need .

Toys often have smaller  litters which are far easier to give more individual socialization to.

Ignoredbymany, I can see how appropriate your name is, so will just add myself to the list of those who ignore you.

Breeders only - first hand - see puppies until they leave them. Trainers see puppies from the point they leave the breeder and (typically) through the first year of life at least. And we are watching them in situations where they are meeting new things and having new experiences.  And it is our job to observe how they respond and alter what we are doing, on the basis of that. Trainers are perfectly positioned to make reliable observations on the ages puppies come to us at, and their development. We also see many different breeds of puppy and don't just teach one breed, as a breeder typically breeds one breed.

Again: When toy pups start at 12-13wks old, it is very difficult to help them become the sociable dogs they could have been. If they start at 8-9wks, we can usually see them confident after a few weeks of socializing.

Of course it is possible for a breeder to keep a puppy on longer and for them to be well socialised - there aren't many breeders who achieve that, sadly, though.

And of course genetics are important - but so is experience and nurture.

Goldmali, I don't know how to answer your question, I am only offer my observations as a trainer. Perhaps the socialization of toys by breeders keeping them longer, needs to improve. Sorry I don't have the answers to provide a perfect solution, I can only say what I see - which is that toys coming later typically struggle much more socially than toys coming to socialisation earlier.

Edited to add: I did not expect this view to be very popular here, since clearly most toy breeders keep puppies longer and are told they should by their club. Which is comprised of other toy breeders, like themselves. (But of a vicious circle, there.). I've said nothing on other threads where people talk about keeping toys longer, but since poodlenoodle asked a direct question about it, and since no one else is likely to say what I have, I thought I'd add in my experiences as a trainer.

Went to see a toy breed the other day and was handed over at 12 weeks old. What a super confident pup it was. The breeder had done everything right.
Personally I would be listening to those who breed the toy breeds, these breed clubs wouldn't just put in rules for the heck of it either.  They are there for a reason.
I've had pups at 7 weeks before now, large breeds and if the owner and pup were right I'd not had an issue in letting one go at 7 weeks either. 8 weeks is the general consensus for me for regular, large and giant breeds.

Also a lot of trainers dare I say it see the worSt case situations often. Same as vets with ill  dogs. There are more poorly bred and reared puppies being sold than there are good ones.

Of course breeders also KEEP some of their puppies for themselves,  some will attend classes with them, others may not feel the need to.

The fact that the older toy pups are not cling well may be them being less emotionally ready for class, more on a par with an 8 week old larger breed pup, which would not come to class before 12 weeks due to vaccination schedule.

Oops, auto complete, I meant doing well.

If the breeder is doing their job right then the pups will be well socialised before they leave; the new owners are not responsible for the entirety of socialisation, it MUST start before the pup leaves.  I am reminded of one dog I worked with who, for the first 9 weeks of her left, had no socialisation whatsoever beyond her littermates, mum and owner coming in to feed them.  She was terrified of the entire world when she was adopted and continued to be nervous and fear aggressive from that point on.  The owners attempted to socialise her and it made no difference.

With the overwhelming number of BYB bred toy puppies around, I imagine a great many will not have been socialised properly prior to being sold and that is the greater problem, not the age: it's not like they tend to have huge litters so the breeders should be able to do the job properly (and indeed the good ones do).

You cannot blame a pup's emotional state and ability to cope purely on age - I've seen enough dogs homed at the 'right' age (8ish weeks) who have had dreadful issues, just as I've seen dogs homed later with dreadful issues, and pups homed at both ages and inbetween who have been very sociable.  It's a combination of genetics, environment and how they are reared before they move on to their new homes as well as how the socialisation is then continued once they do go.

>You cannot blame a pup's emotional state and ability to cope purely on age

I don't think anyone has, here?  I think I said it's a mixture of genetics and nurture...

>It's a combination of genetics, environment and how they are reared before they move on to their new homes as well as how the socialisation is then continued once they do go.

Yes, exactly.  But... as I said... the number of 'good' toy breeders who are able to fully socialise their puppies so they can leave at 12wks well socialised, is few and far between.  People here on CDs are probably some of the best breeders in the country, and aren't representative of the vast majority of breeders.  If toy breeders want to keep puppies till 12wks, then they need to realise that they are taking on much more of the socialisation tasks than a breeder of a breed which commonly goes at 8wks.  In terms of:  Everything off their property.  Other dogs.  Traffic.  etc etc.  Just having a blanket rule that puppies are homed at 12wks really doesn't help if breeders don't realise what they need to be doing in the extra 4 weeks.

These are not training classes, they are socialisation classes run at a vet's, for puppies from 8wks upwards.  (Definitely not 12wks, we take puppies from 8wks - the socialisation window is closing by 12wks.)  If a 12wk old toy puppy can't join a class with 8wk old other breeds of puppies and be willing to come out from under chairs to sniff another puppy, then I don't think it's about 'not being ready', it's about a huge lack of socialisation - and it's not the new owner's fault, since they only got the pup a week ago.

As an aside unless I read this wrong socialisation classes from 8 weeks .assuming  these people are going to vaccinate how would u take an unvaccinated puppy to a class befpre vaccinations are completed . ?  the last place I would go is high density dog area and a vets practice

If a 12wk old toy puppy can't join a class with 8wk old other breeds of puppies and be willing to come out from under chairs to sniff another puppy, then I don't think it's about 'not being ready', it's about a huge lack of socialisation - and it's not the new owner's fault, since they only got the pup a week ago.

I can't actually imagine anything worse than puppy socialisation at vets -it even states in the KC AB templates to be wary of them. A small pup that's confronted with pups much bigger than them -that's how you create small yappy dogs scared of bigger dogs. They need to meet calm bigger ADULT dogs, not puppies. It's not a lack of socialisation, it's a case of bringing the pup out to DO things when too young and too small. I bring mine in a cage, put it on a table and let them just sit there and watch (an entire litter I mean), or sit with the pup on my lap if it's just one. I wouldn't dream of putting a toy pup on the floor with bigger pups at just 12 weeks of age, let alone less. Not unless ALL the pups were a similar size.

I have at least 3 Papillons that were terrified when we tried to join in at class aged about 12-14 weeks. So we left them at home until older. These were all outgoing, happy pups that had been well socialised. When brought back at around 6 months, they were absolutely fine. I'm not saying all toy pups should be as old as that when going to training class, certainly my first one (who was absolutely terrified when brought home at just 7 weeks, hid under a cupboard for a few days -and he had been very confident in his breeder's home -but she was a BYB) -was able to start at around 4 months and did well, ending up taking his GC Gold. But it's my personal experience with my own toydogs, that it's better to just let them watch until older. My almost 8 week old large pups weigh around 5 kilos now. At 8 weeks, my toybreed can weigh as little as 800-900 g!

Our vet no longer does the puppy party socialization classes, but when they did they were 2 or 3 puppies hand selected to be of similar sizes/levels of confidence/temperaments brought together to play under close supervision for 20 minutes. Not a crowd of wild puppies of all sizes and ages setting upon one another! They are purposely FOR increasing confidence, and carefully engineered to do so.

My training class is for older puppies (12-24 weeks at first class I think? Mine was 12 so I'm not sure of the upper limit actually). It is a small class, only 8 or 9 of us, and it's for basic training so not "problem dogs". Certainly in the class every toy has problems taking part (one aggressive, two very very timid) but one of the large dogs is nervous/aggressive too. I do think the owners pose some of the problem though, the two shy ones are spoken to as if they were justifiably terrified, in baby voices etc. I know it's wrong to force a dog to get on with things its terrified of but they could be a bit more matter of fact I think. The toys are also more likely to get a treat "because you were so cute trying to sit" - mine gets his treat when he's sat! I suspect a puppy could leave it's breeder at 12 weeks very confident and well socialised and still end up a bit of a sap if the new owner regards it as though it were some holy delicate creature and not just a smaller than most dog.

> If toy breeders want to keep puppies till 12wks, then they need to realise that they are taking on much more of the socialisation tasks

The worst breeders can't wait to let their puppies go, (and cash in) often before they are 8 weeks.

Those adhering to codes of ethics in their breeds re homing later will be doing age appropriate socialisation.  It's not hard to do this with litters of 1 to 4 pups, where as keeping a WHOLE litter of 6 - 12 pups of larger puppies that long would be difficult, but again not to too difficult to keep some of a larger litter for however long needed.

If a breeders can't commit to doing things properly they should not breed. 

A good reason for potential owners to have chosen their breeder well in advance and visit the adults and then the pups more than once before pick up to assure themselves of how pups are reared and sociability/temperaments of the adults.

Goodness, why would someone assume that a class at a vets is for unvaccinated puppies and a free for all where bad experiences happen?

It doesn't matter where a class is run, it matters who is running it and their experience and ability. Research (which no one seems to care about on this thread, especially when it conflicts with what they want to believe) finds that starting puppy classes as early as possible and of course, them being the right classes, greatly reduces the risk of behaviour problems.

Our classes are for puppies from one week after first vaccination, which can be as early as 8wks if first vaccination is at 7wks, and the area is disinfected before class starts with puppies carried into it. Puppies socialise in twos or threes, according to their needs and confidence and things are closely supervised.

I've had enough of this thread now. I do hate it when people decide they just want to argue for the sake of arguing and pick holes in anything that is said for the sake of it, when it has little relevance to the original subject. why am I spending time defending the classes I run, FFS?!

Saying that there is nothing worse than puppy socialisation classes at vets, is like saying all dentists are terrible and will damage your teeth. Yes there are crap dentists and crap classes around but the best models of both have been proven by research to be beneficial.

As for the worst breeders wanting to let pups go at 8wks, that doesn't mean that all pups going at 12wks are coming from breeders who have socialised them adequately. The two things are completely different.

Sorry folks, I can't be arsed to argue with an entire forum (or almost) who arrogantly think they know better than decades of scientific research and the experiences of other professionals, and are committed to twisting everything said which opposes their view, and picking it apart in some tedious point-scoring exercise. Yawn.

Im out of this thread.

> which can be as early as 8wks if first vaccination is at 7wks,

Why would anyone vaccinate at 7 weeks before maternal antibodies have waned sufficiently for any vaccine to take, I'd consider this really risky, and don't do first vaccination until 10 weeks and final one after 12.

Agree brainless this is making no sense.

The stuff I read seemed to imply the vaccine won't "take" if there are maternal antibodies. And if it doesn't "take" it needs to be redone. That's why they repeat them two weeks later.

Mine was vaccinated at the breeders (my request) at 8 weeks and by me at 10 and we got him out on the ground cautiously and in selected areas when he was 11 weeks. We took him everywhere and anywhere from 12 weeks.

Either there are maternal antibodies sufficient to stop the vaccine working, or the vaccine has worked. Either way the puppy has cover. Especially enough to meet other vaccinated puppies in a disinfected room.

How many dogs die or are PTS due to vaccinatable illnesses in the UK? And how many because of behavioural problems that make them impossible to home? If my vet had still offered them I would definitely have done puppy socialising classes.

>Sorry folks, I can't be arsed to argue with an entire forum (or almost) who arrogantly think they know better than decades of scientific research and the experiences of other professionals, and are committed to twisting everything said which opposes their view, and picking it apart in some tedious point-scoring exercise. Yawn.

Sad to milk these self same breeders for everything you want to know whilst breeding your first litter ....yet when they give their extremely valid...Hard won opinion on something they have worked to learn...you yawn.

So glad you said that Tooolz! I have been following this thread getting crosser and crosser and was just about to jump in and say exactly that! To accuse the the combined experience and expertise on here of arrogance beggars belief!

A small pup that's confronted with pups much bigger than them -that's how you create small yappy dogs scared of bigger dogs.

And also the other way round..............Before I knew any better - late 1980s - I took my 13 week GSD pup to a puppy/ 'socialisation' class at a local training group for puppies up to 6 mth old. other pups were all ages in between.
Mine (GSD) got cornered by a norfolk terrier pup about 1/4 his size which was on his last week (it was a very confident pup with a lot of attitude)
Mine ended up 15 minutes later terrified and with a very strong dislike of small terrier dogs which lasted the rest of his life !!!
My only excuse for putting him through that was that I honestly didn't know any better

Sadly that seems to happen to a certain person around these parts...I am convinced that the exercise of getting as much information as possible, detailed planning and at no time seeming to 'enjoy' the experience, it seems to be all about the whys and wherefores, leads me to believe this is a trawling exercise for information for a book or an article, from the best possible dog trainer in the World!

http://www.itsgoodtotalk.org.uk/therapists/in/aa7cb7/channel-islands/jersey/joanna-laurens this is someone who says she can't be 'arsed' to argue with an entire forum...I smell Bull Shire!! I would like to ask her how she feels about all that? With 'everyone' against her, maybe some internal thought process needs to be done!? Yes, the same experienced Breeders all feel the same about her, she's milked them for all they are worth, now she can't be 'arsed' with them!""

I've also seen on her blog about her dogs that she's put stuff on it that has obviously come off of this forum but written it in such a way that it implies she's actually spoken to 'experienced breeders'. Bit silly really as we could all be a load of fantasists, making things up as we go along...

> Yes, exactly.  But... as I said... the number of 'good' toy breeders who are able to fully socialise their puppies so they can leave at 12wks well socialised, is few and far between.

> Just having a blanket rule that puppies are homed at 12wks really doesn't help if breeders don't realise what they need to be doing in the extra 4 weeks.<br />

Thing is this isn't an what age they leave issue its a how much work some breeders put in issue. Toys are very exploited type of dog with so many crappy breeders most likely outnumbering the good. Some of those breeder will let go early some will keep longer but if they are not putting in the work to socialise their litter like the good breeders are its not that the clubs advise 12 weeks age to go is the problem but that there are breeders out there putting no work into their pups so the pups from them would likely have the same issues if they left at any age and would cause issues in any breed.

> Our classes are for puppies from one week after first vaccination, which can be as early as 8wks if first vaccination is at 7wks, and the area is disinfected before class starts with puppies carried into it.

This is against scientific research and will be likely those puppies will not be protected by those well too early vaccinations. The last one should be on or after 12 weeks of age for best chance of them not being blocked.

Sorry folks, I can't be arsed to argue with an entire forum (or almost) who arrogantly think they know better than decades of scientific research and the experiences of other professionals, and are committed to twisting everything said which opposes their view, and picking it apart in some tedious point-scoring exercise. Yawn.

So practical experience, and proof of the good dogs we have bred counts for nothing?