Apologies for this being my first post. I see this site alot when i google questions so thought it would be a good place to join. Im hoping to post a few questions here and keep them in one thread as im not very good with the search tool :-)

Abit of background in that this litter has been in the planning stages for two years. My girl, imo, has proved herself "fit for purpose" both racing and showing which was one of my requirements. Both my girl and chosen stud have been Heart and Eye tested clear on all accounts (its not a requirement in my breed) This will be her and my first litter and im determined that if i go ahead i want to do it right, so please if ive forgot something, just say.  My girl is due in season in September so just forward planning at the moment. I have 8 homes lined up so far through word of mouth and have the space should any/all need to remain. I also have money saved should a c-section be required. Gawd i hope not!

Anyway, thanks if you got through that :-) my questions.. At the moment...

Due to my girl having 2 silent seasons before a normal season, im not sure which day she started showing interest. I know with her normal season it was around day 18.  I was planning on the blood test to be sure but stud owner advised against this as she says she likes her bitches to be non stressed around the time and prefers to use the pad tests. Given that she is an 8hr drive im wondering how much notice do the pads give you? Are they reliable? Again i dont want to do a 8hr drive to find the timing is off and miss. Due to the studs age its likely he will be retired before her next season.

Should i wait until a confirmed pregnancy before getting a whelping kit etc? Or are there things that need to be ordered well in advance?

When should i instruct my vets to order in the Herpes vaccine? Ive heard there has been abit of a shortage.

Thanks if you got this far :-)

I wouldn't not progesterone test if you are travelling that far.  She might end up being ready day 10 for instance.  Idexx is the main one people use. Repro vets do it too, some vets do it in house also and there are many breeders who are now trained to test by handing them a blood sample. I can't see why she's against the testing as it's not really stressful for a bit of  look to be taken.
How old is the male you plan to use? When was the last time he was used? I'd be depending on that maybe consider she gets him sperm tested too.

Tbh unless you have a back up stud for this time or if she doesn't take for her next season I wouldn't be buying stuff yet. As for Herpes yes ask your vet to get that in, normally only takes a day for them to get it in. However there is a current shortage of it right now as well.

I would test. My stud dog owner said not to worry but like you I have a long journey and want the peice of mind that I'm doing it at the right time. The stud dog owner may be experienced at picking when a time is right for a bitch but I don't think you can explain that over the phone! Haha!

> it's not really stressful for a bit of  look to be taken.

The only time I had progesterone bloods taken, it was very stressful fro the bitch and we ended up needing two, and that was knowing roughly the right time.

I'd never have bloods taken unless absolutely necessary.  Far better to board the bitch with the stud for as long as it takes if at all possible.

I have a bitch due in season in September, and I decided not to mate her until the season after, due to the herpes vaccine being out of stock until October.

Thanks for the replies. I shall be speaking to my vet about it too but just wanted some other views.the stud owner isnt against it as such. Just said she wouldnt advise it.

Ive lookes at over thousands of dogs to pick the right one for my girl. I do have two back up dogs in mind although both of them are untested as yet due to age (although have been health tested and will be 2 by sept time) Due to this being my girls first litter i had hoped for a dog (and stud dog owner) who know what they are doing

The stud is coming up 10. His last litter was on the ground in april and was a litter of 7. His litter before that was 3 and previous litters have not been below 5.  (id be happy with 4 just for choice).

How quick do Idexx (?) get the results back? Do you have a window for travel arrangements? Say, mate i. 2 days etc? Or is it a case of yes ready, go now?

My mentor has studs of her own so has never had to worry about testing for readyness etc. on her bitches.

If you have a lot invested in achieving a pregnancy now, and especially if you have complicated seasons (silent) to contend with, I'd definitely progesterone test.

My girl found the first test fine.  The second time, the vet couldn't find a vein & the dog did get stressed. I don't think I will test next time BUT in exchange for that, I will be prepared to risk a miss.

We had a very long and expensive journey and accommodation when we got there. And still I think that next time I'll just risk it & be ok if it doesn't happen.

So ask yourself if it will be ok if she misses. That will tell you how much you need to test.

Forget about the pads, they really don't work at all. We ran them alongside bloods and they were useless. Ditto with saliva testing.

As for results, if they are taken 9am, you should have them by 4pm next day. If you look back at my past posts you will see a lot of my questions about testing etc...

> How quick do Idexx (?) get the results back? Do you have a window for travel arrangements? Say, mate i. 2 days etc? Or is it a case of yes ready, go now?

When we used them I posted it off myself, send it next day delivery Friday morning and had the phone call the next day at lunch time. The other time My vets sent it off but used a diffrent lab but the results were back the next day and the vets called me about 4pm.
The first time worth the other lab I had the result of 'based on the adverage bitch mate or retest in 3-4 days'. We went up to the studs for the 4th day (whihc was day 19) but she wasn't ready propperly untill another few days around day 21. Last season when we used idexx I waited untill day 19/20 to test her (wasn't going to test as was using a friend's stud to tell me when she was ready as my chosen stud was closer but turns out friends boy was only intrested in her own girls) any way idexx called and said we had totally missed her. This season fit and fertile said she was ready day 12 by looking at the cells under the microscope.

If you do it I would suggest idexx, as with the other lab my vet used (don't know who they are but they don't use idexx) they sent the results to the vets so when the vet called they couldn't give me any advice on what to do, they could only read the email they got. Where as when the man from idexx called me we had a chat about the results and he could offer advice.

Bravo to you for preparing yourself so well for your upcoming mating and litter.  That's the way to go and always great to see.
I have only tested twice (25 years, 43 litters) for progesterone and found it utterly misleading.  Day 14 is the "magic day", and I can pretty well go by that.  Others here do test, and so this is just one more opinion and experience for you to stir into the pot.

If I went with day 14 last time we would have totally missed the boat. Each dog is different and each season they can be different too.

I have always relied on a male dog to tell me when my bitches were "right" and they have never failed but I do appreciate that an 8 hour drive would concentrate the mind, could you stay somewhere overnight just to give yourself a bit more time.  As you have looked at 1,000 potential stud dogs are you sure there isn't another proven dog somewhere closer, I would be cautious using two maidens, if you and the stud dog owner are both experienced then it should be fine but it might be more tricky. Well done to you for your research and preparation, I wouldn't get the whelping kit ready til 5/6 weeks into pregnancy and lastly don't be disappointed if some of the potential buyers disappear before the puppies are ready, it does happen more often than you might think. Good luck with everything

I forgot to say, on the subject of testing, we tested Day 5 for a result of 1.1nmol - really low.  Too low to tell us anything at all.  (Day 5 was very early to be testing, but she was showing all kinds of behavioural signs that she was ready and I freaked out and we got a test done!) 

Then ideally we would have tested 5 days later, but that was then a weekend - which is another thing to factor in if you test:  Weekends screw up both when you can test and when you can meaningfully get results to/from the lab.  So we tested again on the Monday of that week, which was Day 11.  But we knew we wouldn't get results until 4pm the next day and if we waited for that and it said 'mate now', we didn't want to be in a rush to get our boat (yes, boat) so we decided to travel to the stud Mon night as planned, and stay there and phone for results. 

We had a successful mating the next morning with a 20min tie (Tues, Day 12) - the bitch was very happy about it and it all went well.  Then we called Idexx later that day, to find out that yesterday's result had been only 4.9nmol.  They said that she was still 'some way' away from ovulating and they suggested re-testing Thursday. 

However, klb on this forum was really helpful and told me that at 5nmol, is the LH surge - which usually occurs 48hrs before ovulation.  So we were just about there.  Based on this, she should ovulate on the Weds.  And the sperm from the Tues mating would be right there, although it takes 48 hrs for eggs to ripen.

We decided to delay the 2nd mating to be as late as our current plans could accommodate - Friday afternoon - Day 15 - just in case ovulation happened later.  So instead of being 48hrs later, it was an extra day.  We had another successful mating with a 20min tie that Fri afternoon.  The stud owner thought the bitch was a little less into it and more complaining than the first time, but all still went well. 

We never did a test to confirm ovulation, because by that point we were away from home near the stud owner.  And also the 2nd blood test was traumatic for her, as I mentioned.

We had 7 pups born a couple weeks ago. 

Looking back and weighing things up now:  The blood testing, although designed to provide certainty and security, for us created new levels of worry and working things out:  If she ovulated on X day, and we mate on Y day, how long do sperm live for, how long before eggs ripen and can be fertilised, will the sperm still be around, will she hang at Z level for ages etc etc.  It would have been a lot less stressful just to say 'we are mating on Day Whatever' and do that.  Also it was difficult with the travel and accommodation to be truly last minute and fully reliant on an 'ovulation happened' result.  If we did test again, travelling at the LH surge seems about right.

If we had not tested, we would have mated Day 12 and 14.  In the end, we mated Day 12 and 15.  So for all our working things out and stressful bloods, we had one of the two matings 24hrs later.

Lastly, when I got the results for the second test on the Tues at 4pm, I was advised to test again Thursday.  If I'd followed this advice, I would have got that result by 4pm on Friday.  We could not have arranged a mating any sooner than the Saturday, and that was staying 5 mins from the stud.  If we had still been at home and had got a 'mate now' result on the Friday, it would probably have been Monday before we could have had a mating (no boats on Saturdays) and I do think that would have been too late, given the LH surge being a full week ago from then and given her being slightly less happy about the mating on the Friday.  So - waiting at home and testing until a 'mate now' result, would probably have seen us getting there too late and a miss. 

For all these reasons, I don't think we will test again next time.  Let's see if I can hold my nerve though!!

Thanks for the different prospectives.. Argh why are things so complicated lol.

If im early going down that would be fine as we could always do an extra trip later if needed. But if im late.. Well as i said i dont think the stud would still be getting used come next season. Maybe though, hes in fantastic condition and still winning cc's from the Vet classes.

The problem i have is my girl is of "old fashioned type" she more resembles her ancestors of 6 gens back than her parents or g.parents. I have an image in my head of how i think the standard looks and trying to find a stud who also fits that image is hard. They are all so tall or over angulated imo.  My second choice of stud doesnt help much as hes actually further away than my first. My 3rd is son of the 1st.. And is closer.. But hes alot taller.

My boy is neutered but i could test with my mentors dog, although he drops weight as soon as he smells a bitch in season so not sure if she would go for that given the shows that are on around the time.

Im still debating on whether to have the litter..(the,  do i want a litter from her bad enough to take the risk of losing her) or do i buy in. But if i do decide to go ahead i want everything in place correctly so that there is no last minute "oh that will do" type of moments.  luckily the stud owner is lovely and has assured me that if i find one closer to home she wont take offence. Im still looking in the ring and at lines after every show just incase ive missed someone.

I'm getting very curious what breed you have!!

Is it a sight hound breed? You mentioned racing! You can't explicitly tell us but you could tell us what group or type of size of dog...

Lol yes a sighthound... The smaller racing one :-)

Ah, thanks!

Could you ask the stud owner to keep her for a couple of days? I had a 6 hour journey for my girls last stud and the owner said to bring her at day 9 and she kept her for a week until the deed was done. She had 7 puppies. The stud owner did not charge for boarding, although some may do.

Hmm thats a thought, althouhh not sure how she... Or more me... Would cope with her away. Due to the distance i was planning to stay local for a few days rather than come back up during matings.

I think you have my breed which is lovely but do bear in mind when you are looking at the dog in front of you that what you see is not necessarily what you will get, tall dogs don't always throw tall, or dark eyes or movement, I was told that you are better off looking at what the grandparents and parents are like and as many siblings as possible.  My own dog has produced similar puppies no matter what type of bitch he is put to so however you choose it still remains a lottery, if it wasn't then breeding a champion would be easy, if only it was that simple. I do hope it goes well for you.

Oh yes.. My own girl goes to show that they dont always look like their parents.  I did have about 20 on my shortlist but for one reason or another, too old, too young, untested etc they were discounted. Lol its not a case of i think the thousands of dogs were bad, quite the opposite, its just they didnt suit the faults that my girl has without doubling up. And yeah ive been looking back the lines to see possible outcomes.

Lol although i have just found out today that one of the dogs i had discounted as untested has since become a dad to a litter of 8...   Can see me revisiting that list often lol.

> one of the dogs i had discounted as untested has since become a dad to a litter of 8

I think you may mean unproven, not untested

Lol damn autocorrect... :-) yes i meant un-proven