Does anyone have any suggestions on this one?

When my now 2yr old girl was a pup, and had just finished teething, I noticed her breath was really really smelly.  At the time I thought, maybe it's because of teething - maybe there are lots more bacteria in her mouth, with the blood etc, than usual, and it will go away.

Well, it never did go away.  She continues to have really smelly breath.  The fact that she had this for sure as soon as her adult teeth came in (possibly earlier), makes me think the smelly breath can't be due to plaque and tartar etc - those were brand new teeth! 

But fast forward to now (2yo) and I realise she has more build-up and plaque on her 2yr old teeth, than my 2 oldies do, at 11.5yo and 9yo.      I try to encourage chewing on things, but she's not a big chewer - she will chew for a bit and then get bored.  Just today when she was chewing a deer antler, I noticed her gums were bleeding quite easily as she chewed.

I've just bought a doggie toothbrush and finger sock brush thing, and 2 different kinds of toothpaste, and some Plaque Off (which I tried before for the smelly breath and it didn't work, but now we have actual plaque, I'm trying it again).  (Once she's finished feeding her pups of course.)

Why do some dogs, given the same diet as other dogs, end up with teeth that get plaque much more?  I'm guessing this must be genetic?

Is there anything else I haven't tried??  Any wonder products people swear by?  Is toothbrushing going to get rid of existing plaque, or would that need something more, like a dental? 

Thx

Try googling.............
fragaria vesca for dogs teeth
load of links, its homeopathic and is supposed to soften the plaque and tarter and make it easier to remove. May be worth a try once the puppies are weaned (probably preferable to a GA for a dental)

If she's had bad breath all this time I would be inclined to get this checked out by the vet. That's a long time to ignore bad breath on a youngster. If her gums are bleeding it sounds possibly that she has a pr9boen going on because they shouldn't bleed easily.
Re plaque, good old raw bones to chew on, far quicker, easier and cheaper to get that off than anything else.
What have you been feeding her over the past few years because certain foods I'm convinced will contribute to this.

I'd suspect some kind of gum disease.   I have found that my line tended not to have good teeth and often had extractions as they got older.   I freely admit not to paying any more attention to their teeth than to my own however...... mine do have Bonio or Morrisons own and Fish4Dogs treats  which are supposed to help with tartar build up.  http://www.fish4dogs.com/Categories/Dog-Shop/treats.aspx

Bad breath can be caused by other things than 'just' a dental issue however and now might be a good time to get your vet to do more checking into what's going on?   For sure, the gums shouldn't bleed excessively and that would suggest some form of gum disease I'd suggest.

Some of the information in these articles may help?   http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2089&aid=379
http://petdentalservices.com/2013/03/what-bleeding-dog-gums-can-indicate/

I agree definitely vet check . If she doesn't usually have raw bones be careful with the large weight bearing bones they can easily break teeth as can antlers as always  things it's owners   choice .I don't as have had a broken canine .so prefer things like ribs and carcasses.some people use plaque off successfully too .but I do believe some dogs are more prone to discoloured teeth even if.they have bones etc  but not bad breath and bleeding

A vet check will need to wait until the pups have gone... As it has been this way since she was 12wks old and she's now a very healthy 2yo, I doubt it is a sign of another serious medical condition.  I don't really want a GA for a dental - I don't think it's bad enough for that.  I can just see some build up at the base of the molars on the sides.

We've avoided antlers in recent years just because they can break teeth, but when I saw her teeth, I decided it was more important to get her chewing something. 

The bleeding isn't excessive, it's just if she's chewing hard on something when she takes her mouth away, there are traces of blood in the saliva on it.

I'm more concerned about the plaque build up...

She's been fed mostly Bob and Lush, partly Orijen - dry. 

I can try a big recreational bone as soon as I can make it out to a butcher... what do I ask the butcher for?

I'll try the fragaria fresca too.

Edited to add:  During her pregnancy, I actually discouraged her from chewing any of her chew toys and took them away - our older dog had giardia and I really didn't want her to catch it, being pregnant, so I was being ultra careful with hygiene the whole time.  This may have contributed some...

Butchers normally know them as marrow bones  also natural instinct do a range of bones for recreation

Great thanks!

> <br />Is there anything else I haven't tried??

I have dental equipment and use to remove tartar.  This is fine on my dogs that will lay perfectly still for me.  Some would jerk about and cause damage.  They get my thumb nail behind the tartar and I snap it off.  The few that jump about and I have no chance, get booked in hospital for a dental.  I would recommend that you do  this,, then it will be a million times easier for you to cope with, starting on a clean mouth. 

Plaque Off didn't do a thing for my lot either.

> The bleeding isn't excessive

But when they get gum disease it does bleed - even if not excessively.  Once a proper dental is carried out, the vet will prescribe antirobe for the gums.  It's a bit pointless treating tha gums until you have got rid of the reason for it happening.  If that makes sense.

Todays anaesthetics are so much safer  than years ago, and I've had a dental done on a 13 year old with no problems.  It's better than the pain they get from very sore gums.

My eight year old terrier bitch was/is the same. I now have her on nutriment in the evening and kibble in the morning. This has made a huge difference, she has always had occasional chicken wings, and I've always had to be more careful with her as she's the most sensitive, but this has helped enormously.
Her breath was always the worst and I'm certain it's her gut, this diet now seems best.

Rabid, she may have excess plaque at the moment anyway due to her pregnancy and lactating, happens to us hence free dental care whilst we're pregnant, so I dare say some Dams will also suffer from excess plaque too.

As for removing it............. knuckle bones do help if a dog will gnaw them, although my vet would scowl as they can break teeth, but to date never had that happen..........*touch wood* bones are the only thing to really scrape those teeth.

I would recommend booking her in for a descale at your vets, and to also check those gums in a few months time, and then daily brushing afterwards, it is the only way to keep those teeth clean.

She is young to need a descale mine are usually 6-7 for their first one, but if she isn't a lover of bones (my mums alpha wasn't) prob why, you'll just have to do it and then toothbrush and paste afterwards. (Good luck with that )

I've never needed to use bones before - my older two are quite happy chewing on Nylabones and other pet shop stuff, and with the risk of breaking teeth or snapping off chunks with bones, I've avoided them till now.  But I'm starting to see that she might only want to chew if it's a big recreational bone - she doesn't go for the 'fake' stuff like the other two do!

Ahh, that makes lots of sense about pregnancy and lactation Carrington - although she's always had smelly breath from 12wks, I'd always thought that her teeth were lovely and white and clean, so who cares too much what her breath is like... It was actually when we were in the whelping box together and she was giving birth, and panting, that I could see her teeth easily and I realised they had build-up on them!!!  So I was a bit shocked and kinda blamed myself for removing all chew toys during pregnancy (not wanting her to catch the giardia).  But if pregnancy and lactation can contribute to this, that would make a lot of sense.  Because otherwise it's a lot of build up for 9 weeks, even without chews!

JeanSW, that's very helpful - I will start growing my thumb nails immediately(!).  I think she will let me do this if I have a few sessions of just poking around her mouth generally.

Bleeding gums are usually a sign of gingivitis, which in my toydog days my vets have treated with metronidazole. Like Jean SW, I  keep my dogs teeth scale free. I use a small chisel edged dental scaler, and start to accustom them to the feel of this while they are still quite young. They soon get used to the touch of the metal on their teeth, and accept it as being a part of their grooming routine. I also brush their teeth weekly, using either an enzymatic toothpaste, or Hatchwells toothpowder moistened with liquid aloe vera. Some dogs do seem to have smellier breath than others, but I think regular brushing and a grain free diet usually seems to be beneficial in most cases.

What about Hooves, mine chew on those and they do quite a good job.

Mine get much more tartar when they have had a litter..., I have always believed this to be partly down to the puppy poos they are eating. I also have a mother and daughter who are both poo eaters ( aged 6 and 2) and their teeth are quite dirty due to that. I have 9 others , all related who do not eat poo, fed same diet, same lifestyle and have clean teeth so do think poo eating contributes to mucky teeth.

Second vote for hooves.  I can't afford antlers, two of mine can't have bones so that's not an option, and the only rawhide they like is too expensive to have often, so they have hooves.  Cheap as chips, and they do a great job on teeth.

You can also fill them with something tasty to encourage the dog to get interested in them to start with - mine aren't mad keen if I give them plain dry hooves but filled gets them going and then when the filling is gone, the hoof has been moistened a bit and is smelly and interesting.

Yes ... re the mouth and what happens when cleaning up after puppies!!    Giardia - normally only via the feces of an affected dog.

MamaBas, giardia is very contagious. All it takes is an infected dog to wash her bum and then chew a chew toy, for cysts to be left on the chew toy.

Where do I get hooves from then? I don't think I've seen them in any pet shops around here....

>

Sent you pm

I would personally wait until she is off the litter before giving her any hooves or anything filled with nasty pet shop flllers. Dirty teeth while rearing a litter sounds completely normal... Plenty of time to clean them after wards rather than risk all sorts of tummy upsets in the litter.

Many dogs have a low infection with giardia which their immune system keeps under control so show no symptoms. Bit like campylobacter ... Low exposure builds resistance.

> MamaBas, giardia is very contagious. All it takes is an infected dog to wash her bum and then chew a chew toy, for cysts to be left on the chew toy. <br />

Rabid.  I am more than well aware of how dangerous this protozoa can be having been unfortunate enough to have bought in a pup carrying this.   Not having had this before in my lot, ever, I did A LOT of reading up on what it is, etc.  Further I just wrote "Giardia - normally only via the feces of an affected dog."  Note NORMALLY.    Please don't keep jumping down by throat at every comment I wrote.   It's tiresome to say the least.

Sorry, having a bad hair day and my tolerance level is low just now.

MamaBas, I'm sorry about your hair but I did not 'jump down your throat', I made 2 statements of fact about giardia:

>MamaBas, giardia is very contagious. All it takes is an infected dog to wash her bum and then chew a chew toy, for cysts to be left on the chew toy.

There's nothing accusing you of anything there, so I've no idea what you're talking about or where you're coming from. 

bucksmum, yes, I don't plan on giving her anything different whilst she's feeding the litter, just getting ideas and a plan together.  I have started to use a finger sock and just warm water to rub her teeth and got quite a lot off just with that...and her gums didn't bleed either.

Having looked at it more closely, it doesn't seem to be (much) actual build up that can be removed or scraped, not much actual solid stuff - it's mostly like the colour of the teeth themselves has changed in places to a more yellowy colour.

Yes, that yellow colour on the teeth is exactly how mine get after all the puppy poo eating..... Will clean up when she stops. I would ignore it,very normal.

Phew, thanks!!  I don't think it's entirely poop eating because I noticed it when she was in labour and before any poop eating had happened! But I'm sure it doesn't help!

Roughly when do they stop eating poop, it's at weaning, is that right?

Not necessarily...... Mine will clean up after pups all the way through until they are away from litter. One bitch stayed with litter ( her choice) until they left and was still eating their poo.... Saved me a lot of clearing up though :)

> so do think poo eating contributes to mucky teeth

OK
I must give it up  then. 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

> Where do I get hooves from then?

I always buy a box of 100 online.  Much cheaper that way.  I usually google each time to get the best deal.  If they give you a choice of sizes, always go for large, they're a better buy, and even the Chihuahuas have the same size.

> Sorry, having a bad hair day and my tolerance level is low just now.

Hey,,, we're all allowed a bad hair day MamaBas.  Go treat yourself girl. 

Zooplus do the smaller  ones, I assume  come from calves, and I send pups off to new homes with a few.

The big heavy (longer lasting) ones I have bought by the sack St championship shoes. These work out at about 40 to 50 pence when bought in bulk (50 - 100).

Mine tend to eat pups poo if they can get them in the whelping box/pup pen. Once they are going outdoors they leave it alone.

Oh, I do hope mine stops the poop eating - I can deal with it before they're on solids but after that the idea is a bit gross

Right, I will look into hooves then....

Think yourself lucky many adult dogs do it regardless of if they are male or female or have had a litter. Copraphogia or similar spelling

It's hardly normal - it's a behaviour problem, however many do it!

It's a behaviour problem for.the human the dogs is more than happy.

Well, most behaviour problems are coping strategies (or were, at one point in a dog's life) and end up becoming learnt behaviours. 

That doesn't mean the dog is 'more than happy', just because they keep doing something. 

There is often some underlying stress, or memory of a time of extreme hunger etc etc (could be any number of things) which leads a dog to do this, so I wouldn't say it's only a problem for the human and the dog is fine.

I would recommend a thorough dental at the vets after the puppies are off, I believe that the bacteria in the mouth when they go into the body via the bleeding or damaged gums due to plaque can lead to problems with the heart. I don't know how common this really is but I know it is a cause of heart disease in humans as well so it's got to be worth keeping an eye on.  Plaque build up seems to vary in individuals even in the same household with the same management so maybe there is a genetic component as there is for lots of things. My 5 year old has only the slightest trace of plaque on his molars with no brushing or very much chewing whilst his 2 year old daughter has had a dental clean and she is raw fed.

Was discussing this with my dentist yesterday with bith dogs and humans general.I. pressing is yes there probably is a gentic component  but not a lot of true research done. As for.heart conditions again certainly in human's and cats and I have seen it mentioned with dogs

Slightly off topic, apologies.

Could those that buy the larger sized hooves tell me where I can get them from, website would be good?

Are they a suitable size for a GR?

I think zooplus do them , Ive used allsorts for my gsd

Zooplus do, FF, but they ones I have bought were very small and fine for her as a puppy. I'm looking for larger sized ones that one or two have mentioned.
Thanks though

Zooplus only do the small ones.

I haven't found a good place for the large ones yet. I do get worried about the chemicals and high fat (?) these things are cooked in - if it's similar to rawhide??

The thing is, I think the smelly breath is different to the dirty teeth - because she had smelly breath when she'd only just got her adult teeth in, they weren't even all in when I first noticed.

I thought I remembered reading in an article somewhere about how some people can have smelly breath due to bacteria in their mouths (genetically these are the bacteria their mouths have) and how in these cases it's not due to tooth hygiene & I wondered if this could be the same for dogs too....

I think the answer when you think the time is right after her pups is a vet check and probably a dental. It could also be her food isnt right for her .although they don't last long I use dried tripe sticks for chewy treats but mine are also raw fed. How about adding chicken carcasses or part off as treats if you are happy to feed kibble and raw

> I do get worried about the chemicals and high fat (?) these things are cooked in - if it's similar to rawhide??<br />

No they are not cooked they are simply the hooves after slaughter, perfectly natural, and jut keratin, so would think very little fat (I am talking empty ones not the ones filled with rubbish that you can get).

If you want to fill them I suggest doing it yourself so you know what's in there.

Ok, great - thx!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30-EMPTY-HOOVES-LONG-LASTING-DOG-TREAT-NATURAL-TREATS-/152127498725?hash=item236b8169e5:g:3IwAAOSwepJXXo9x

Well, I did a mad dash to a pet shop today but they didn't have any hooves.  In desperation I bought some rawhide. 

She was really into chewing this although didn't make fast progress on it, but her teeth are MUCH MUCH cleaner after just one munch on raw hide, so I'm now thinking this is mostly due to cleaning puppy poo or maybe some temporary build up during pregnancy and hopefully it will clean away again.  No blood on the raw hide either, so maybe the antler was sharp and hurt her yesterday.

The smelly breath - maybe that's just her!

Antlers are MUCH harder than rawhide or hooves or almost any chews you can give them - quite possibly they are the hardest!  There have been quite a few reports of dogs breaking teeth on them

Hooves are hard but they can be chewed and do soften slightly with chewing, so are good at scraping the tooth surface - rawhide does the same.  I favour the hooves because rawhide often has some pretty unpleasant preparation processes - I don't know if hooves do but at present, I prefer them.  Plus, they are the least reflux-inducing chew for one of mine (which is one reason why we can't have bones).

Yes, clearly I have to rethink my chew provision situation now!!

Rawhide can contain some awful chemicals even when sold as natural...... I,personally won't use it and wouldn't ever give to a bitch feeding a litter.