Hi, I'm probably in the wrong place here, but I'm looking for some advice. I'm supposed to be picking up a German Shepherd puppy on the 13/07, but the breeders are starting to act a bit off with us. We went to their house, saw the pups and the parents, picked one and paid a deposit. We then contacted them to give them our address for microchipping and they said "we aren't putting the new owners addresses on because it's too much of a hassle" and have now said they won't be taking them for their first vaccine either. I don't have an issue with paying for it myself, but we also asked if they'd been vet checked (a must for us) and they said the pups had been checked at 2 days old and at 2 weeks old yet had no paperwork to prove this.

When we asked if we could come (when the pup was 7 weeks old) and take her to a vet near their house (so she wouldn't be away from mum too long) just to give her a quick check (and then return her to mum until she was 8 weeks) before we pay the money and take her home, they said no and that she couldn't be vet checked until 13/07. The breeders then texted us and said if we weren't happy, we could come and collect our deposit and forget it. I don't want to do that, obviously, but am I wrong to want to take her and get her checked independently?

I just don't want to pay hundreds of pounds to these people, take the pup home, take her to the vet and then realize there's something wrong with her. With our current German Shepherd, she came already vet checked, vaccinated, wormed, flead and microchipped (with our address on it) so this is all very new and odd to me.

Any advice/pointers/tips would be helpful. Thank you in advance!

I would go and get your deposit back immediately. Warning bells are ringing.
Best to make the break now before you get too attached and too deeply involved.

Their seems to be a real lack of communication going on between you both and I can see why the breeder would offer your deposit back, maybe if he/she explained things better to you you would understand so I'll try.  The new laws in relation to microchipping require the breeder to be the person named on the chip, the new owner receives a code which they use to add their details too, the breeders name remains on their and from a breeders point of view this is great as if any puppy landed in rescue, I would hope that the breeder would be contacted.  Most breeders do not vaccinate prior to a puppy leaving at 8 weeks as the first vaccine is due at that point and different vets use different brands of vaccine and some will insist that if the breeders vet has used a different brand of vaccine to what they stock, they will start the course again and personally I would not wish to inflict this on any puppy.  No way would I allow anyone to come and take one of my puppies away from mum and return it, I'm sure you feel that this is a sensible solution but why would someone hand one of their precious babies to a stranger without any money changing hands?  Most breeders are protective of their babies.  Personally I do not have my puppies vet checked prior to leaving, I have the new owners arrange the first vet visit for a day or 2 after collection, the puppy can be vaccinated at the same time, it is in my contract that a full refund would be given if the puppy was to be returned in the first 14 days.  I would expect a puppy to have been wormed around 3 times prior to it going to it's new home.  I do not administer any flea treatment, my pups do not have fleas nor do their mum so it is totally unnecessary, if new owners want to use a preventative treatment when they go to the vet for their vaccine then that is a matter of choice.  I am wondering if you bought you last dog from a more commercial environment where it seems that vaccines are necessary due to the volume of puppies produced.  I would also shy away from the adverts which state, "vaccinated, fleas and wormed. Deposit secures".  If you are not careful the breeder may insist on returning your deposit and not selling you a puppy as they may be getting fed up with your demands which to you may seem sensible but in my view are pretty unrealistic.  My advice would be to take time to digest the information I have given you and whatever any one else adds then decide if this is the breeder and puppy for you.

Someone else has already posted really what is the case. With microchipping now by law since April it all goes into the breeders name and then once you collect your puppy you need to change the details into your name.
As for vaccinations I wouldn't start them in the pups are leaving at 8 weeks, only reason I would start them is if the pup is staying longer and then I can start socialising it for the owners.
Never used flea treatment because my dogs haven't got fleas, if they had picked them up then yes they would be treated but wouldn't put chemicals on puppies as a matter of course.
Worming would be done 3 times prior to the pup leaving at 8 weeks.
As for vet checks I like them done at 7 weeks, it's not a must but it gives me peace of mind. Unless you ask for it the vets don't produce paperwork for this. Contract then states the pup must then be taken to the new owners vets within a set number of days and any problems or concerns the pup can be returned with full refund.
I wouldn't be allowing my pup to leave the house with you either a week before for a vet check. They don't leave my hands until I fully hand them over.
If the pup is being checked the day of leaving that's not a bad thing as it will be very up to date. Maybe ask for a vet report on that puppy too, however it will be on the vets notes if any issues arise.

I do think there is some miscommunication here between you both and the breeder is probably being protective of her pups.  You've got to think whether you trust the breeder and whether you really want a pup from her now. She's offered you a way out should you decide to take it. Maybe it's worth a phone call to bottom this out.
Vets checks I never asked for paperwork either but if someone wanted it I could have obtained that. They went away with their bva eye check forms to confirm clear of eye conditions for the breed.

Well, on every single point there, your breeder is making the exact decisions I would.

1. By law, chips must carry only the breeder's details. Then the new owner adds their details at point of registering the puppy with the KC. PetLog make it free for new owners to do this at registration and it is part of the same process as registration now. (Or supposed to be if they have fixed all the teething problems yet.)

2.  Vet check. This is the most simple, basic checkup ever. It is not going to identify future problems in 95% of cases (or there'd be a lot more people returning puppies when they take them for first jabs!). It involves taking the puppies to the vet where they may pick up disease just before they are due to go to new homes. And a good and attentive breeder knows if their pup is healthy and doesn't need a vet to tell them. None of the pups I've bought have been vet checked before purchase and the pups I've just bred won't be either.  New owners should immediately after purchase take their pup to their own vet for vaccination and a check should be carried out at the same time. If anything is found to be wrong, I'm happy to take the pup back for full refund.  They should have a contract where this is stated. I would never let someone take a pup away from me before having bought the pup to carry out a vet check - and if someone said they wanted to do
this, that would imply a loss of trust in me as a breeder and I'd be suggesting they look elsewhere because that's not the relationship I'd want with a new puppy owner.

3. As Barbara said on the other thread good breeders don't give just 1st jabs because vets insist that 1st and 2nd jabs are the same brand. If your get uses a different brand to hers, the vaccines will need to be started from scratch and a total of 3 given - which isn't great for your puppy's immune system. Breeders who give 1st jabs often use this as a marketing ploy to try to sell puppies - but more "stuff" done is not better.... Ditto for flea treatments. 8 wk old puppies don't need flea treatments and the application of chemicals and pesticides....

Frankly all your breeder's choices sound spot on to me, but you sound very suspicious of her and distrustful. It sounds like she is hearing this too and getting peed off with being questioned and doubted, and not wanting a puppy to go somewhere where there is already bad feeling so is suggesting she refund your deposit. In my eyes, taking a deposit is the main thing she's done wrong as it makes this situation harder to get out of - for her.

Welcome Kirsty

The microchip must first go into the breeders names by law. Many breeders now don't do the first vaccination due to issues with maternal antibodies and vets using diffrent brands refusing to either get in the same brand or just give a second of a diffrent make.

The health check have they said the will be seen before they leave on that date or are they now not doing it? Do they have a contract that stats about bringing the pup back for a full refund if found to have a problem within a certain time fraim? Despite mine being checked by the breeders vet the week before I picked her up when she was chipped I still took her to my vet for a check over within the first week, and I could have taken her back had something been found if I had wished.

1. Microchips

Maybe I did it wrong but microchips like the kc 5 week insurance were done online by me when the new owners arrived to pick up the puppy

2.

Vet check, yes it was quick but I did get a bit of paper from the vets saying all well. A lot can happen between 2 and 8 weeks.

3.
I'd re-phrase that PLEASE. Lots of breeders good and bad have the first jab at weeks. I'm not treating a puppy without fleas.
Isn't it part of AB scheme thingy, had to wait 9 weeks for my girl  but my puppies left at 8 weeks since I'm not a member of any group.

I wouldn't let anyone take my pups away from unless they were leaving for the final time.

Not happy get your deposit back.

Moved reply from other thread

I bought a new puppy about three years ago and this is my experience
The pup was checked by the vet when the breeders took the litter to the vets to be chipped. They were coming up to 8 weeks and were kept another couple of days after this experience to make sure there were no problems with the chip implantation and the vet visit, we took our pup home a few days later. It was up to me to change the petlog details from the breeders name to mine, also to fill in the KC form to change her to my name and address. I took her to vet not long afterwards for a thorough vet check and innoculations, I wouldn't have expected or wanted the breeder to have organised the first inoculation. I was given assurance by the breeder that I could return my pup with a full refund if anything was found to be seriously wrong with her, also the breeders said that she could be returned to them at any time in her life if, for any reason, we were no longer able to care for her. She was regularly wormed and I was given a sheet showing the worming regime along with a very detailed folder of information as required by the KC.
i have bought a number of puppies over the years and really the only major difference is that now it is mandatory for the breeder to chip the puppies before they leave and that the new owner is responsible for any changes. Before this it was up to me to chip or not chip a dog as I saw fit.
I would not expect or want a breeder to have the first set of inoculations done, nor expect a vet check although that is a nice thing to have, however, as has been said, it is usually only a cursory check to say that the pup is fit and well on that day, certainly no proving paperwork.
The sort of paperwork I want to see when buying a puppy is certificates of health tests.

There are some 'breeders' of the puppy farm variety where it pays to be asking lots of questions up front and avoiding if necessary, but it very much sounds like you have found a conscientious breeder who is doing all she/he can for the welfare of the pups. There are no absolute guarantees with puppies, things can develop in time that could not have been predicted and you will have to do your best for your pet. And it is a puppy, not a second hand car where you can make demands of the dealer!!!

Coming from a breeder's perspective, I believe all that's now required by law re microchipping, is each puppy must be 'chipped by 8 weeks, by the breeder which means the breeder's name would be on the records.   When the puppy comes to the new owner, then the new owner alters the information.    Secondly re vaccination/health check, we didn't vaccinate the puppies we sold, at 10 weeks usually, because of the risk of a new vet wanting to start over, perhaps giving the puppy too much vaccine.  And vaccination isn't normally given until after 8 weeks of age, in any case unless by chance the puppies didn't take mum's first milk in which case an interim vaccination would be given at 6 weeks, against Parvo and lepto.  

Yes, our puppies were given a health check by our own vet just prior to being released to their new owners.   This to protect ourselves.   The new owner, on our advice, was told to take their new puppy to their own vet within the first 48 hours (I preferred them not to do it sooner, to give the puppy time to get over the initial stress of going to a new home).   I would never allow a prospective owner to take one of my puppies to any other vet at 7 weeks.   That could be the last the breeder would see of that puppy!!  And the puppy needs to be health checked days before going to a new home, for it to be worth much.

Our puppies were wormed from 2 weeks, and then every 2 weeks to the time they go home, with the new owners given full details of when wormed, with what and the advice they be wormed again by 3 months.

If you are not happy about what's going on with these people, you don't have to buy from them.   Depending on what's on the booking contract, you may have to forfeit your deposit although from the sound of this, these breeders may be happy to make you a refund, and end it.   It appears they have already offered you a deposit refund?   Take it.   To be honest, if I was being badgered like this over a puppy, I'd be happier to return the deposit!!

Well Kenny, I never thought I'd be agreeing with you lol but yes, I consider myself to be a good, responsible breeder of a very numerically small breed here in the UK. I was an Assured breeder but resigned as I felt the scheme was flawed.

As my breed can be born with and without tails I have to have the litter vet checked by day 3 and then vet checked just before pups go to their new homes (which can involve multiple visits depending on when pups are being collected) so that each puppy has a letter from my vet stating that the pup is healthy, microchipped with number and whether it was born tail less or not. I also had the first jab done by my vet as he had a client who was successfully sued by a puppy buyer as they sold the puppy without a first vaccination, puppy fell ill and the judge decided that it was negligence on the breeder's side(I don't want to get into an argument about the rights or wrongs of puppy vacs), this is the information I was given by my vet who I trust and he wasn't doing it to make money as the arrangement he gave me for each pup was extremely generous. None of my puppy owners had a problem with getting the second vaccination.

All puppy worming is up to date, certificate supplied, but I've never flea treated any puppies.

I have a very good contract, written up by a barrister, and everything is set out on it in plain English. Even Trevor Cooper agreed that my contract was watertight at one of his Dog Law talks.

I don't ask for deposits for the exact reason the original poster is stating. If a puppy buyer of mine isn't happy then they can walk away.

> We then contacted them to give them our address for microchipping and they said "we aren't putting the new owners addresses on because it's too much of a hassle"

Actually since the new law change the breeder has to be the first registered keeper and then the new owenr ahs to transfer the keepership.

I use Petlog and there is nowhere/no system that I can see where I can transfer to new ownership.

Vaccinating pups before they leave the breeder is not a good idea, and not something most good breed5rs would choose to do, as pups will often end up over vaccinated (new vet uses a different vaccine and starts course again)or vaccinated too early (many of us don't vaccinate until over 10 weeks, to be sure of getting past maternal antibodies with second jab at 12+ weeks).

Except in breeds that show known congenital health issues, as a breeder I'd hope I would know if my pups were showing signs of ill health and I would not want them anywhere near a vet surgery (where sick animals go) until they were due to go for their vaccinations.  One of my issues with the Kennel club Assured breeder scheme, it rather gives false reassurance, looks good but pretty meaningless.

In my current litter I have just homed a pup with a couple who are both vets and they told me they do not give a written statement for their clients if asked to vet check pups as they say it's only good for the moment they are checked.

As most litters are not all homed on the same day, or even week, taking each pup individually to be checked, with the risk that entails for the pups and the litter, not to mention the costs (that would have to be added to the price of the pup) this seems impractical, as the new owners vet will need to check them again.

In the past those who chose to chip their pups could register them directly to the new owner.

One would hope most pups would not need treating for fleas, and giving unnecessary treatments to young pups is unwise.

Litters whose main selling points are 'vet checked, fleeded' are usually the ones to steer clear of, as they have little else positive to recommend them.  any care or treatments a litter needs should go without saying.

What you ought to look for is parental health screening, hip scores, eye tests, DNA tests and the quality of the parents temperament, ability, and if they are typical of their breed, and that the breeder has involvement/interest in their breed/dogs other than breeding puppies to sell..

Admin asked me to add my post from the other thread, and others have neo basically said some of the same.

I do take deposits, it's a personal choice,  and return if I am unable/unwilling to provide the pup. I have PM'd you a copy of my puppy contract, which sort of gives the gist, and if your breeder has similar then I would say everything is likely to be cosher.  Your ps9ot has made me think that in future I will emails my contract to potential owners right at the start so they can see where we are coming from.

>To be honest, if I was being badgered like this over a puppy, I'd be happier to return the deposit!!

Totally agree!

Hi Kirsty,

I bought a puppy last month, so very recent experience.

I had been in touch with the breeder for a long time (over a year) as a planned litter didn't happen and then the next season arrived later than expected. Only relevant because it meant a lot of stuff we'd discussed already without it being in the rush between the pups being born and them having to find their new homes.

My breeder's name was on the KC registration and microchip database as owner and I changed this myself the day after we brought him home (it took a few minutes online). That sounds normal to me.

My breeder did vaccinate our boy, because we discussed it and she uses the same vet (different practice) as us, so we knew the vaccines would be compatible, and I was keen to have him covered as early as possible as he is a large breed and thus (i feel) early socialization is really important, and I didn't want to have to worry through it about the risk of him getting ill (i carried him or had him in a pram, but had him out every day).

My boy was womed a few days before we brought him home. He hadn't been de-flead, having not had fleas. He has now had a flea treatment, because it's the preferred choice of my vet, who uses a topical combined wormer/de-flea-er on puppies.

The vet saw my boy with the breeder for a newborn check, to have his dewclaws removed, and then a few days before I got him to be vaccinated and chipped. There was no paperwork to "prove" it but he doesn't have dewclaws and is microchipped! My breeder advised that I have him checked by our vet and we took him the day after we got him. The vet described him as "not bad, not bad at all" and we got no paperwork to show for that either, these checks are very rudimentary - heart sounds, look in eyes, feel all over - they could tell you if there was an obvious issue but they can't predict the future.

My pup's parents had both had their eyes checked and hipscores done and I'd read up enough to know at a glance both were both below breed-average hipscores. The best hope you have of a healthy puppy is that it comes from healthy parents. It's hard to tell from your post if your breeder is annoyed because she's done everything right and you're acting suspicious or if she's done things slapdash and doesn't want to be found out. You can (and should) ask to see the health certificates of the parents but it is worth remembering that in getting those tests done and using healthy parents the breeder has done the best they can to ensure healthy puppies.

I didn't pay a deposit (though could have if I'd wanted - my breeder seemed happy to take one if it helped/made me feel better, but didn't require one). I paid in full when I picked him up.

This all sounds like misunderstanding/confusion to me. I can see why she won't allow the puppy to go to the vet prior to sale. Think of her worst case scenario - you steal the puppy. OR you take it to the vet and decide for whatever reason not to buy it, but it picks up some bug or other at the vet and gives it to its mum and littermates - unless you do it badly breeding seems to be an immensely exhausting and expensive task, and even though on the surface the puppies seem expensive therefore there's money in it, most breeders are only going to break even once the pups have all gone home. So risking a whole litter for a vet check from one buyer is not worth it for them.

If things were okay up until now it might be better to phone and try to talk the confusion out. Sometimes people "in the know" forget that not everyone is, I can see you're not trying to be awkward, just trying to do the right thing by your future puppy, but the breeder (if they are good) will have exactly the same aims in mind (long-lived, healthy, happy dog in a good, permanent home) but might be approaching it differently for good reasons.

Best of luck to you.

Isn't it part of AB scheme thingy, had to wait 9 weeks for my girl  but my puppies left at 8 weeks since I'm not a member of any group.

Part of ABS is your pups MUST be vet checked prior to being sold, and if you want to let them go before 8 weeks, the vet must put it into writing that this is fine in their opinion.

I had never before had vet checks done until this was brought in but I honestly don't mind, because now I will have it in writing that all male pups have two testicles, nobody has a heart murmur or hernia etc, so it protects me as well as the buyer for certain issues.

Marianne, how can you tell they have two testicles? My lad's didn't make an appearance for quite some time, they're very obviously there now but at ten weeks there was no sign! Just curious sorry to derail topic.

When checking two little peas can be felt under the skin - having ended up with a dog with only one - definitely do check - of course things can change but have always had a small feel!  you don't need to apply pressure just brush over lightly if the dog is lying on back can be easier :)

Thank you for replying, wish I'd known sooner. Ed is my first boy so it's been a new experience for me!

no it was only after my 'first' experience of the 'only one' that I discovered/found out what to do as I never knew either - just assumed they all had two lol!

Has Kirsty left thread?

Copping a feel and counting the lumps was one of the things the vet did to my boy at his first check after we brought him home

I do give the first vaccination as I want my puppies to be protected from day one. I know a lot of people disagree with this but I feel I have done the right thing. My vet checks for heart murmurs, he also checks lungs, teeth, testicles, ears and teeth. I do have a form that my vet signs to say that there are no obvious health problems. I have found that this works for me. On the contract the new owner can also return the puppy if their vet finds a problem. This has never happened. Of course I will always take a puppy back in the case of problems. I would never let a puppy be taken away from mum by anyone before they were ready to go to their new home. Fortunately, because people now want to make sure that they buy from a reputable breeder, they are asking for more and I am all for that. If you are not happy, walk away.

KirstyAC I see you have posted about your new puppy, so did you go with the breeder, did things become clearer on further explanation, or did you go elsewhere????

Hi, sorry, I forgot to update everyone on the situation.

Basically, we didn't feel comfortable with the initial breeders, so we went with someone else that had more credentials etc.

So what made this breeder better in your view (apart from gut reaction, not to be sneezed at).

I am sure many of us who breed would be interested from the buyers perspective (long time since I was a buyer and I already had involvement showing and breeding another species, so my research would have been different, I went straight for breed clubs), might help to avoid misunderstandings, explain breeders policies better?????

Basically, the first people we contacted claimed to have experience in breeding and said that the parents had a great temperament, pups would be KC registered, come with their first vaccination, microchipped etc. When we began asking more questions, they became very cagey. As it turns out, these people had no idea what they were doing. The bitch had come into season and the owners didn't know (???) and their male dog got ahold of her and she got pregnant.

We ended up going to their house to speak to them in person because they weren't answering phonecalls or text messages. We asked to see mum and they said no because she didn't like men. My dad left the room and the girl (she was probably 16-18 years old) took my mum and I into the kitchen and showed us the mum in the garden. We saw her for about 10 seconds through a window and that was it.

They claimed the pups had been checked over by a vet at home and seemed to be in good health, but, again, couldn't give us any form of proof that a vet had visited - not even a number or name of the vet who had supposedly been there 2 days prior.

I know we probably seem a bit paranoid, but puppy farming is an issue and you want to make sure your pup is in good health before getting attached to it or handing over any money.

I had emailed several breeders from champdogs and when I got home, I had an email from a lady who recommended a breeder as she herself had no litters this year. We contacted the lady and she spoke to us for about 20 minutes over the phone, telling us about the parents, the pups etc. We drove down on Thursday and saw both parents, pups and spoke about how they were doing, what they were eating, their vet visit and even scanned pups to show us that they were microchipped. We left a deposit and went back on Monday to pick up our Pup.

The lady gave us the contract/receipt, a bag of food, free insurance and said if we had any problems or questions, to phone her and she'd be happy to help. Total night and day between the first people we contacted and the person we ended up buying a pup from. She offered every bit of information without us even having to ask, whereas with the first "breeders" it was like trying to draw blood from a stone.

Good call walking away from the firs tour instuncts were right and no at all.what anyine should be doing.sadly it's all too common Hope everything goes well with the pup u have got and sound like she is good breeder. The breeder I got my current gsd from apart from experience  and health testing prior to mating  is there for us through their lives.its very reassuring

As furriefriends says a close call and you were right to walk away,

As many of us said the first were using the 'fleed, vet checked' tagline to attract a buyer with false reassurance.

I would not buy the puppy unless both parents are health tested,and I would also want the puppy health tested before you take her ,If not walk away.

> I would also want the puppy health tested before you take her

This would only apply to conditions that are apparent at or soon after birth, (some eye conditions and deafness for example) most health issues are not and we rely on parental health screening.

What i meant to say as a breeder and exhibitor and judgeof over 40yrs experince was that i would want to see both parents health certs,as in hip scoring,elbow score,haemophillia,and the breeder should have the puppy to the vet for a general health check before sale.i always vaccinate my pups,microchip,and have them checked by vet before they go to their new homes.If none of this is done I would walk away.I know obviously that puppy cant be hip scored etc,but i would want her vet checked before you take your puppy.As in a healthy well reared puppy

> but i would want her vet checked before you take your puppy.As in a healthy well reared puppy

and if I as a breeder couldn't tell my pups were ready to go and in good health I should stop breeding.

I won't have a pup near a vet (unless they are unwell) until it is going to have it's vaccinations, and I won't vaccinate prior to 10 weeks.

There is no one right way with many rearing aspects being up to personal belief/experience, and often breed and situation specific. A very few pups for example will need flea/tick treatment, but it certainly wouldn't be a selling point for advertising.

With pups leaving me over an extended period of weeks, any vet check would be worthless by the time the last one went, if all done just before the first to go, and impractical and prohibitively expensive to do individually (and I'd be putting remaining pups at risk of infection brought back, ditto shedding vaccine) and would mean adding the cost to the buyer who then will be taking the pup to their own vet for a check once they get it home, so paying twice.

My contract states "It is essential that you take your puppy to a Veterinarian in the first few days for a health check, and to make arrangements for inoculations.  Should there be a health problem not attributable to its journey home (travel sickness) or change in food or water (tummy upset), and this renders him/her unfit for sale as a companion, a full refund of the purchase price will be made on production of a Veterinary report (any financial liability limited to purchase price)."

Of course the buyer could bring a vet along when they pick up as in my most recent litter (though to be fair the buyers were vets)  as they do with horses.

With pups leaving me over an extended period of weeks, any vet check would be worthless by the time the last one went, if all done just before the first to go, and impractical and prohibitively expensive to do individually (and I'd be putting remaining pups at risk of infection brought back, ditto shedding vaccine) and would mean adding the cost to the buyer who then will be taking the pup to their own vet for a check once they get it home, so paying twice.


I've just minutes ago come back from taking 11  7 week old large pups to the vet for a check. As an AB I have to. The vet and I agreed that yes, it is a bit pointless as not all pups will go at the same time. But at least I have it in writing that each one (mentioned with KC reg'd name and microchip number) has been checked and for instance no heart murmurs found.

We put the pups in cages on a trolley and wheeled them in, so they were never on the ground. Only the vet and one nurse touched them and it did them good to see a few new things such as a motorbike going past when we loaded the van up, etc.