I'd be grateful for another advice re choosing a dog. A family with a 4 year old and 9 year old, dad has had dogs but is at work most of the day, mom has never had a dog and staying at home. What is the good age of the dog for us do you think? Thanks

Such an individual decison but for me, having a puppy means having a dog with a 'clean slate'.   Adopting an older dog means it may well come with 'baggage' as I callit - things it has picked up in previous homes/been allowed to get away with.   Both would involve a degree of training of course, but with a puppy you don't have to 'untrain' and then train.    However, having a puppy is going to be a full-time job and puppies need to have somebody around most of the time, if only to get housetraining sorted out (older dogs can hold for longer than a puppy and some may be used to being alone for periods during the day too).

I didn't like letting any of my puppies go to a home with children of under 5 at least.   But again it depends on the family!   A plus would be if you are home most of the time because all this is going to be up to you and you should be aware of that.  

Personally again, I'd always go with a puppy.   But that's just me.

I would also go for a puppy . I know some breeders arnt happy with under 5 but it also depends on how your children are with small puppies and a visit to the breeder which is a must anyway could sort that out.

Great that mum will be at home full time  obviously leaving the house without pup is going to happen but working especially long hours and a pup is very difficult for both the pup and owner imo   . A dog is a social creature and for  many reasons needs someone  to be there most of the time. Having a pup is like having another child and is a full time job.

If you do decide to go for a pup please come back here for advice on how to choose a pup and what you should look for in a breeder, it so easy to get pushed the worng way.
I am sure others will be along soon and some with very good reasons why having an older dog could work as well so you wil get views from both sides. I have had kids and dogs together but only from pups so cant give that view.My own reasons for choosing pups was because I wanted one without baggage and one I could train my way.

> Having a pup is like having another child

A really important point here for the OP.  So many people who know nothing at all about dogs find that it is very hard work spending the time required to look after and teach pup.

Unfortunately the people who will sell to you without questions are the very people you shouldn't buy from!  I am another who won't sell to people with young children.  Teaching children the proper way to approach dogs (as opposed to letting kids think it's for them to play with and shove around) is hard work. 

The OP needs to know exactly what they are taking on.  A lot of people can't be bothered to take pup outside every hour, or to attend training classes where they are taught as much as the pup.

I've had dogs all my life, always from a puppy, but when my children were born I was between dogs and made the decision not to have a dog until the children were older. When they were five and six,  both at school, then we galloped off and bought our new pup with a huge sigh of relief that we were dog owners once again.
Having a puppy is like having another baby, as others have said, the major difference is that they grow up quicker so that means you need to really work hard with your puppy for the first year or so, installing obedience and good manners. Having your children out of the way at school gives you the time to bond with the pup, teach toilet training and start obedience training. The children will come home just at the right time to play with the pup (and learn the proper way of handling and training the pup) whilst you are busy getting tea.
Let your youngest be at school is my advice and as the others have said, come back for further advice on avoiding a badly bred puppy farmed dog.

Thank you everybody who has replied so far. And yes, though I say 4 years old - he will be in Reception already....I do hope though that some breeders will agree to meet us and the kids before saying no because of the age...

> ....I do hope though that some breeders will agree to meet us and the kids before saying no

You have made a vital point here.  Responsible breeders will want to meet all the family.  I've had people drive for 4 hours and they allowed the kids to run riot.  Naturally I turned them down for one of my precious pups.  On the other hand I had people with 4 children and one was autistic.  They were a lovely family and the children sat on the carpet to gently hold pups on laps. The autistic child didn't want to do more than stand at the door and watch.  I had no regrets when I received photos of their brother and his kids (and dog)  both families at the seaside with both children and dogs having a great time.  So, yes, there are always exceptions. 

Don't forget puppies can be in rescues as well & can make good family pets. They don't came from tested parents or with a pedigree, but I grew.up with dogs from being born & the first ones were rescued as puppies

I'd go for a puppy who can adapt to your family and routine. It's a hard time the first few weeks being separated from mom and siblings,toilet training and four meals a day. The joy thou and that constant wag of a tail on your return even if you only popped to the bin is wonderful.

Research the breeds and what you wish for from a puppy. Big or small breeds? A lot of hair or short coat. An energetic outgoing dog or a plod along quieter type.

Do you wish to use a crate? Or Stair Gates on stairs? All to be considered.

For me a Labrador,Cocker or Border Terrier come to mind ☺

Jusy a point there is often a difference between show line cockers and  working cocker  nit always but worth remembering the latter.more likely to be very full on alwaus in the go which may be too much for a first time dog and young children

True ff I'd forgotten to point that out

Personally I would consider how much time you have during the day for training and also for an evening obedience class too without the children so you can make some real headway and bond with it.
I met a family who on the face of it sounded wonderful and yes they had young children. Met them and I was like no way. Neither child wanted to be licked  and made a fuss that they didn't want the dog near them. The father wanted the biggest dog with the largest head and the mother was left during the day to train the dog, look after a 4yr old and a baby. I said no way. Totally the wrong time for any dog let alone my breed.

On the other side the first pup I had  when I had children, who at that time were 8 and 5 and both at school , I  had plenty of  time during the day for training and fun and also I took her to classes in the evening .oh looked after the children and gave him time with the kids or thats what I told him  lol . It all worked out very well .I didn't also have a young baby and would agree that would have been too much to manage for any breed and probably  even an older dog

Personally I would only take on a puppy ( rather than an older dog) if you have children. If you get an older dog you can never be sure why they've been moved on - although I am sure there are lots of perfectly wonderful dogs who are moved on through no fault of their own. However, taking on a puppy is a massive responsiblity - probably on a par with having another baby - at least short term. You have to ask yourself if you have that kind of slack in the system. As with anything in life you only get out what you put in. I am sure you are giving it a lot of thought. Good luck with it all and enjoy your dog. FWIW I have a lab and she is absolutely brilliant with the grandchildren. There is a reason why popular dogs are popular!!

Tommee, from what I've read and from my previous experience with the cat, rescues are really unwilling to give dogs to families with young children (young being about 9-11 years old).... and puppies are quite rare...

Saxonjus, we would very much prefer a smaller dog, love borders and our friend has a show spaniel - do not think that any of these breeds can plod along though (what I'd prefer). Most smaller breeds (except pugs maybe) seem to be quite active...

Furriefriends - I will be in the same position as you were, both children in school and no babies - except for the puppy ;) My older son is very gentle, my younger one loves ALL the animals, we have friends with a cat, 2 friends with dogs and the other one with gerbils and he really careful with all of them...

I think u are thinking this through and would advise u carry on doing research and if u do decide to look for a pup as I said earlier comeback for advice on how tolook for a pup and try and avoid the pitfalls as much as possible

A dog settles into a walk routine set by you. I'm lucky I have fields and woods 5 minutes walk away. I love walking so my Cocker (show type) happily has 2 walks a day a good 40 -60 minutes each one. His just as happy to plod along on the roads too.
Borders in our family and one lived with 5 children ages then from 4 to 15 and another before the arrival of 2 children now18 mths and 3 years and his golden with them and very happy to have beach walks or road walks.
A good recall,wait,ok, and down commands work wonders. A lot of work in the beginning with clicker really pays dividends later on.....

> Saxonjus, we would very much prefer a smaller dog, love borders and our friend has a show spaniel - do not think that any of these breeds can plod along though (what I'd prefer). Most smaller breeds (except pugs maybe) seem to be quite active...

To be honest I know very few dogs who plod along - unless they are old, overweight or have a health problem. All dogs should be active and puppies are incredibly active and demanding of one's time.

Not wishing to appear rude in the slightest but I think maybe it's not the right time for you to get a dog. Puppies are very hard work to begin with - not just for a few days but for months and then just as you think you have cracked it they go through an adolescent stage where it seems that everything you have ever taught them has gone out the window . To end up with a dog that is well trained and well socialised takes a huge amount of time and effort. Getting up to a young puppy several times in the night is just as exhausting as getting up to a young baby or child - and if you have both it doubles the problem.

Older dogs can come with issues that are not always apparent when they first come home with you. I have three rescues at this current time and the  only  one that hasn't had issues is the one that came to me as a 9 week old pup. The middle dog was 5 months old when we got him and he has been one of the hardest dogs to live with that I have ever owned - we manage his issues but he isn't for the faint hearted My latest rescue was about 14 months old - lovely dog but he spent his early life on a chain on a farm and was a failed cattle/sheepdog. Never been socialised or off the farm until he went into rescue. He will be 5 years old this year and I am still working on some of his issues. There are rescue dogs out there who don't have any problems at all but there are an awful lot that do - which is fine if you know what you are doing and have experience of dogs.

I don't want to put you off the idea of a dog but maybe it's not an ideal time right at this moment. Pugs can be very active - there is a team of Pugs that compete in agility. Think long and hard, do a bit more research as to what dog ownership can entail and remember that your dog will be with you for upwards of 10 years - many live into their mid teens - which is a long time to commit to. Simple things such as a family day out where a dog can't accompany you - the dog can't stay home by itself for the day so you either forego the trip or have to find someone to look after your dog, holidays - either a holiday where you can take the dog or the cost of kennels etc. Dogs are a huge tie when you have a young family. So much to consider.

The best thing is that you have asked for advice and not just walked straight into getting a dog as so many do and then realise that it wasn't the best idea for them at the time - one of the reasons so many dogs end up in rescue. You have taken the time to ask for advice and I just wish others would be as responsible as you are being.

Harley not every dog after their puppy stage is a hundred miles an hour running everywhere dog. From this forum I have read time and time again the need for good training either in classes or time spent every day with set commands and clucker/treats/voice tone methods.
My term plod along meant a well trained dog not pulling at lead or rearing up at pushchairs etc.

I've seen gorgeous quiet German Shepard and noisy aggressive ones looking at the owners I see why. I've seen mad spaniels and really gentle spaniels to. Hyper boxers and calm Dalmatians to fussy shitzu's.
A good temprement in mom and dad and how the breeder is also a good indicationhow puppies are.

Often people say a retired Greyhound makes a good first pet

I'm still all for children to grow up with pets dog or cats or both.

Sorry - I thought you literally meant a plod along dog.

I too like children to have a dog in their life but the training, socialisation etc is always down to the parents of the children. If one is totally committed to dog ownership and has some experience of dogs then having a puppy as well as having small children is very doable if one understands just how much time a puppy can take up.

The OP states she has never had a dog before although her husband has - but he isn't the one who is going to be around caring for the pup all day every day. I just wanted the poster to fully understand just how much hard work a pup can be - when we had our last pup I found it hard work and I am used to dogs but had forgotten just how demanding they can be - and that pup was a very easy pup :-)

A friend of my son's asked my advice about getting a pup several years ago and to be honest their situation wasn't ideal at the time due to having a toddler and a baby. They listened to what I had to say and then decided the timing wasn't right. When their children were older - 6 and 4 - they contacted me again and said they were now ready to get a puppy. They had heeded my advice, had done a huge amount of research and had also moved to the country to a big house with a huge garden and lots of easy walks right on their doorstep. I put them in touch with a breeder on here who after careful vetting sold them a puppy. A year later they contacted me to say they just couldn't cope with the dog and young children and asked me to help them find a new home for the dog. I advised them to get in contact with the breeder - who was a responsible one - and the breeder took the dog back and found it a working home.  I personally felt I had let the dog down - because I had found the breeder for them, I had  let the breeder down - because I had contacted her and asked her if she knew of any pups of her breed at the time of them getting the pup and it just so happened that she had a litter herself ( I had been in contact with her for years as I have a rescue pup of the same breed and she was really, really helpful when I first had him) and I also felt I had let the family down as I obviously hadn't made it clear enough just how tricky it could be juggling a puppy and a young family and running  a house etc.

I knew the family who had the pup well  - she grew up on a farm which had working dogs - and know they are responsible, caring, honest people and as I had vouched for them to the breeder I was devastated that it hadn't worked out.

I would just hate for another young family to take on a puppy and not realise just what they were taking on. Lots of families do cope with puppies and young children - and if I were a betting person I would have bet that it would all have worked out brilliantly for the family I knew.

Harley, I do appreciate everything you say about challenges of rearing the puppy and whether it is the right time for us. I've done some reading and our good friends have a dog who is now 3 years old and the others are enjoying their 4 months puppy, so I've been getting a lot of first hand info. That is what actually prompted me to think if we should consider an older dog... Maybe not so much a real rescue, for whom I unfortunately do not have any experience, but a dog in need of changing one home for the other for some change of circumstances. The story about your son's friends is really quite an eye opener, thank you for that as well. Anyway, I assure you we will think really hard before deciding when and which dog to get ))

Saxonjus , sorry for the off-topic, but as you obviously know these breeds so well , could you tell me is there a principal difference between spaniel's and border's temperaments?

If you like the idea of a spaniel but don't want hyper...what about a clumber or a sussex spaniel?

Not ALL rescues gave the same rules & puppies are not as rare.as you think.

For me it would depend on the youngest child being not too young(under 3) & the time available for the main carer to be with the puppy & socialise & train.

Some of the rescues that rescue dogs from Europe/Ireland have slightly older puppies(15 weeks +) that they are willing to place in homes with younger children after homechecks etc

Unless you are set on "A" breed such puppies can become wonderful companions. A family has two dogs from such rescues & now adult dogs ( both acquired separately & 2 years apart) in our village, they are regularly seen out with the family, interacting with children, adults & other dogs impeccably. They come from generations of dogs that have lived on the edge of society & that have evolved to be non aggressive & naturally sociable type of dog.

My daughter came to live with us and brought her border terrier, she is one of the loveliest dogs around children, will play endlessly, always wants to have fun and happy to snuggle on the sofa, we now babysit her son who shares all her good points BUT as a breed they are tireless always wanting to get up and go, they are dedicated chewers and can be noisy if not taught different. They need socialising as they can be a bit grumpy with other dogs but not nearly as much as some other terriers. We have had 5 different breeds plus crosses and 3 children plus grandchildren, all our dogs have been great with children and so much depends on you and your attitude, I have sold puppies to families with children and it really is individual. I watch the parents and children, listen to their conversation and invite them back to visit more than once,, the last litter it was so sweet to watch the 7 year old girl telling her little sister 5 how to stroke the puppy and then start teaching their puppy recall, wonderful family who have gone on to have a second dog very successfully. Yes, there are families who should not have a puppy and sadly despite all a breeders vigilance sometimes the wrong decision is made, all you can do is your best

Home from home rescue is the worst kind because no one has actually assessed the dog which is what general and breed rescues do. The only option there is to contact a breeder and find out if they or anyone they know have run on a puppy and need to rehomed so the can give you warts and all because they've lived with it the whole time. This would need to be a reputable breeder and also one who would still be willing to take the dog back at any age

If you do go for a puppy, whatever breed you choose, please learn all you can about all of the training now, and get a plan in place.  Your husband may have had a dog before but you have not, and experience tells me that you will find it much harder than you expect - and his ideas of training may even be out of date now (I don't mean that in an unpleasant way, it's just been my experience of people).

I've worked with couples in exactly this situation a few times now and it's the women who struggle as they are trying to manage kids and a puppy while the husband is at work but, in every case, they have made no preparation for the pup's arrival and ongoing training so if you can be as prepared as possible before pup ever arrives, you will be in a much better position to raise a brilliant family pet   It seems you are already well into doing that, good on you!

If you decide to go down the rescue route - and I've known plenty of rescue dogs who were brilliant with children, my own foster dog recently went to a home with 3 young kids (I believe the youngest was 3 or 4) and is doing brilliantly - look for a rescue that fosters, ideally.  I was able to give both the rescue and the potential adopters very detailed information about Dodge's behaviour both in a home environment and around children, some of which a kennel-only rescue will not be able to provide.  More and more rescues are moving to fostering now too, so it shouldn't be hard to find one.

It will depend on which springer you go for. Working lines can go on all day and need stimulation and exercise. However I've walked regularly with a working Cocker line puppy and she is gentle,sweet natured and not in your face at all... A show springer will still need stimulation and exercise and this can be set by you ,how you want to set walk distances.
Borders are full of character they along with the Cocker will get along with cats this was a must for me having 2 cats before my current boy.

Next door have a Sprocker  (Cocker/Spaniel) he is lively yet friendly and has been happy with just walks on roads.brought up with children and as an older dog now 10 he has the grandchildren to wag tail at.

Aunt and cousins Borders all happy characters, eager to please similar to springers thou they do dig the garden! They are good on recall and also happy to snore curled up in car too.

I'm only speaking from experience of walking them,being on holiday with them and visiting. I don't show my boy. I researched the Cocker more as I had no first hand experience. I then met up with a friend who had one and discussed traits, eager to please,enjoy company, they also can have anxiety and separation issues being left alone.I had time plenty to give to my puppy. We built up his tolerance of being left, a minute, few minutes just walking down drive, round block etc and lots of praise on return. Even now his left max 2 hours. Mainly he comes visiting family with us.

I loved our Labrador too and I was torn between having another.
Why do you like the springer?  Have you looked at the Welsh Springer? We tried to find breeder but none available and by then I'd heard of my breeder.

In the end it's personal choice and what you like. I hope you find your forever puppy whichever breed you choose.

> There is a reason why popular dogs are popular!!

I would disagree there, there are a lot of breeds that are rarely seen/unusual that will make as good or better companion than some of the popular breeds, where often the readily available are often poorly bred.

I would actually advise a new dog owner to consider the less usual breeds as those that are not commercially popular are more likely to be in t3eh hands of the best kinds of breeders.

That said though my daughter has grown up with my breed and loves them dearly I have advised her and her other half to go for a dual purpose Black Labrador when they finally are able to have their own dog, as he has grown up with retriever types and wants a dog that will play fetch, and the bla=ck hairs won't show up as much on their work clothes.

Everybody, thank you for the replies! All said about rescues is of big help to me, a lot to consider. And thank you for the detailed comments on spaniels and borders, and the others... I find it quite hard to choose a breed - need to meet them face to face ))

they have made no preparation for the pup's arrival and ongoing training so if you can be as prepared as possible before pup ever arrives, you will be in a much better position

At the moment, I think "prepared" means: having all the puppy/dog paraphernalia ready, knowing when and what to feed, house and garden dog proved and children thoroughly educated, vet chosen, knowing what to look out for healthwise, injections for puppies, logistics of school runs and who is looking after him then, knowing what and how he should be taught, when and what classes he'll be attending... What else - I want to be prepared ))

Perhaps go to Discover Dogs in London. Here's the link

http://www.discoverdogs.org.uk

yep - thanks! - definitely going there

food is a tricky one  as breeders feed differently so don't sweat too much on that any pup should come with info and  diet sheet.You may wish to change later Vaccinations is another tricky one do you research , my advice would be either to make sure if  you are going to vaccinate that the breeder either does both or that you know your vet can get the same drug company vaccination for the second or you get into difficult territory of dogs having too many as the vet wants to start the course again
. Think you have curious toddler who puts everything in their mouth and that way you will have the house and garden more or less proofed  also make sure their are no exits for small pups to find there way through. toys , bedding maybe a crate and look up how to crate train. How to house train is a must from day one. If you are looking at training classes make sure you find one who uses positive methods and go and have a look while they are training. no pulling smacking etc and lots of treats. apdt trainers are a good one and there is website to tell you where your nearest one is. Puppy parties at the vet be ware its very controlled an not a free for all with all different sixes thrown together.
The book of bringing up puppy by gwen bailey is good someone will know the exact title and definitely discover dogs. For me I prefer summer pups as house training is easier than winter

guess, it's this one - thanks,Furriefriends
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Perfect-Puppy-Take-Britains-Number/dp/060061722X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1467039779&sr=1-1&keywords=gwen+bailey+perfect+puppy

I suspect that's the one FF is recommending. It's a really good book, great for a newcomer and just as great for someone like me who hadn't had a puppy in the house for 15 years - my last two dogs lived to very good ages for the breed. It's amazing how much changes in dog training in the intervening years and just how much you forget how hard raising a puppy can be.

Isn't it funny how sad you can feel when people disagree with you?

> At the moment, I think "prepared" means: having all the puppy/dog paraphernalia ready, knowing when and what to feed, house and garden dog proved and children thoroughly educated, vet chosen, knowing what to look out for healthwise, injections for puppies, logistics of school runs and who is looking after him then, knowing what and how he should be taught, when and what classes he'll be attending... What else - I want to be prepared ))

All of that is what I meant, you're doing a brilliant job

I agree , you are asking questions and doing research all before jumping in. Of course every family is different but with thought I see no reason why a dog /pup would not work especially with you at home and the children at school

>Isn't it funny how sad you can feel when people disagree with you?

I love this.  Sooooo true!