Well I really hope you are right Jean. I've never seen my sons so despondent and feeling so let down. Apparently on twitter there are some fairly horrific reports of racist abuse and attacks happening already.

RozzieRetriever it's a shame always a minority of thugs resort to racial/religious/sexuality abuse and violence.  One son very despondent yes however the EU is all his known and I pointed out we never knew mobile phones/internet/home delivery shopping but us"oldies" had to adapt and embrace change. As did those who came home shell shocked and fatigued by WW2 to bombed out homes and families they adapted and as a nation came together. Make do and mend comes to mind now.

Keep calm and carry on a new journey

Point taken. Shutting up now xxx

From Facebook (not written by me):

"If you voted out because of "unelected politicians" then well done because we're about to get an unelected prime minister.

If you voted out because of immigration then well done, because you just lost the right of free movement too. Just wait 'til you have to get a visa to go to Glasgow or Belfast.

If you voted out because people were "stealing your jobs" then well done, because you're about to see Germany and France "steal" Nissan and a bunch of other companies who only manufacture here as a gateway to the eu market.

If you voted out because you think we'll get a great trade deal with the EEA "like Norway did", think again. Take a look around your Sainsbury's Local and try and find any fruit and veg that's grown in the UK. We need them more than they need us, and like the EEA, we'll have to accept EU policies like free movement as part of a trade deal anyway - except now we won't be able to have any say in them.

If you voted out because of vague scaremongering headlines like "Migrant Crisis" then please, feel free to remind me when it was that Syria joined the EU.

If you voted out because Farage promised £350m for the NHS, then I'm sure you'll be happy to watch him on This Morning revealing that that was a lie.

If you voted out and you're heading into retirement, then great job! Because now the working people of this nation will break their backs to afford your pension without the influx of young, economically active and skilled EU migrants.

If you voted out because you think we'll be better off, the £ has just fallen by 8% against the dollar.

And if you voted out because you love this country, prepare to see it crumble, with threats of a unified Ireland and an independent Scotland just hours after the result was confirmed.

Well done, Britain."

Personally I'm in Scotland and hoping for independence from the UK out of this. Overall I would have been happy to accept 2014's indyref result and to stay in the EU (and  I voted Remain). But we were told the only way we could stay with the EU was with a No vote, and now we're out anyway despite returning the No vote then and every area and Scotland as a whole returning a Remain majority.

I am enjoying watching the poisoned chalice of Tory leadership being passed around. The ever-bouncing Boris is notable for his sudden absence. Friends in Germany tell me the media there is highlighting how much we will be punished for this, to put other member nations off trying the same move. So looking forward to that bumbling twit trying to negotiate us any kind of exit deal/positive future with no experience as a PM, no network of contacts in the corridors of Brussels and no actual leverage (what is it the UK have or do that the EU so desperately needs again...?). As Kenny said, interesting times.

The new PM could be Michael Gove

Rock & Hard Place comes to mind

poodlenoodle.  Scotland has it easy.  UK took in 250,000 immigrants last year.  Scotland took 8,000 of these.  The rest came to where I live.  I've heard Scotland is a beautiful place.  Even Glasgow has it's good side. I've never been.  When Scotland voted for their independence if the whole of the UK had a vote on this I would've voted for independence.  Not to be nasty but to be nice.   I know Scotland joined England because we paid off your debts but that's in the past.  I don't see why anyone should be joined to anyone else and that's why I voted leave.

saxonjus I remember proper home deliveries.  The baker, the greengrocer, the groceries from the corner shop, hand your order book in and it came to the door with a new product added for free.  The man with polish and dusters and other cleaning products.  The milkman, the coalman.  Never to carry anything heavy home as it was delivered.  Those were the days.  Just a phone call away.

Personally I'm in Scotland and hoping for independence from the UK out of this. Overall I would have been happy to accept 2014's indyref result and to stay in the EU (and  I voted Remain). But we were told the only way we could stay with the EU was with a No vote, and now we're out anyway despite returning the No vote then and every area and Scotland as a whole returning a Remain majority.

Yes, the first time you voted, in practical terms, the vote was for staying in UK as a member of EU & remain a member of EU, but, this time the vote amounts to the opposite & really means - 'do you want to be member of EU but not UK'? - or - 'do you want to be member of UK but not EU'?
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> ... I remember proper home deliveries.  The baker, the greengrocer ...

Oh yes, me too.  Our greengrocer had a van drawn by a lovely skewbald horse, which knew his way around the streets, and which house to stop outside.  The baker's delivery man had what would now be called "learning difficulties", he did a useful job, and no-one discriminated against him.   None of the delivery people was rushing to a tight timetable (well, the butcher's boy was often in a hurry, but he was always a teenager ) but had time to attend to the "customer care" aspect of the job.

I do hope the country can find a way to pull together, to work together to make a go of our new situation.

Nicola Sturgeon has been looking for an excuse to have another vote for independence and this has just fallen into her lap.

well, the butcher's boy was often in a hurry, but he was always a teenager ) but had time to attend to the "customer care" aspect of the job.

Oiy.......this a dog forum not a toyboy sourcing information facility
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>Scotland has it easy.  UK took in 250,000 immigrants last year.  Scotland took 8,000 of these.

That doesn't explain why much of London voted Remain? Surely they have the most immigrants in the whole country?

Maybe we have it easy here. There are only a few Syrian refugees it's true. We have huge Polish, Pakistani, Bangladeshi and decently visible Chinese populations though. And we have extreme poverty and the infamous Glasgow Effect. I laughed a lot at "even Glasgow" having its good side as its where I live. I've lived all over from the terribly impoverished Calton to the ridiculously affluent Byres road and loads of other places in between. It's not like anywhere else. I've lived in the north of England, the Orkney isles, Perthshire, and I'd never leave Glasgow. It grows on you. Sometimes like a mould.

My family are immigrants (from England to Scotland for me, from Russia to Germany to England for my great grandparents). I am only in the UK at all because of my ancestors having to repeatedly flee antisemitic genocide. Thus I suppose I sympathise with the lot of people who find themselves born or living in a place where they are suddenly unwelcome.

Britain has colonised almost the entire planet, so I think other places colonising us is probably fair enough, if not pleasant. The boot is on the other foot eh? Unfortunately a lot of the affluence and comfort of the good old days relied on wealth siphoned from the places we had colonised. So unless we find a new country to invade and exploit I don't see that revenue stream returning. Our government has allowed almost all of our heavy industry to die off, we manufacture relatively little and mostly for foreign companies who want us as a trading gateway to the EU. Our farming is struggling. In the good old days Britain was a powerhouse of invention, industry and manufacturing. It isn't now, and we no longer have the infrastructure to return to it, even if we could attract customers when much of the rest of the world accept a lower standard of living and will do it all cheaper. Even our banking industry, performing all its functions electronically and not requiring infrastructure, will be second-best to those in the EU. We are already hugely in debt and now have a negative credit rating for borrowing, so we won't easily be able to replace our old infrastructure either. Returning to the wealth we had before we joined the EU will take decades, perhaps centuries. Given the way we have been ruled for the last forty years it's a bit baffling to be in this position in fact. Like gradually deconstructing your kitchen until you don't even own a kettle and then shrieking that you'll make your own banquet and cutting off all your suppliers.

I see the shadow cabinet is in a complete shambles this morning. Our leaders and betters tell us the keep calm and carry on, but cannot seem to manage it themselves. When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

> I have never lived in Scotland, but my grandmother was a Scot, do I qualify for dual nationality?

If you are, which unfortunately for you, I doubt, I'm the same with a Scottish grandfather.  And further I can trace my bloodline back to Robert the Bruce, and beyond!!!

"That doesn't explain why much of London voted Remain?"   
The Remain vote from London, and other University towns and cities, reflects, I suggest, the more information population.   Not those who were not properly informed enough to make a good decision.   If my neighbour is anything to go by, and I believe she is, it was all about the cost of membership of the EU, based on scaremongering figures put forward which conveniently left out how much had come FROM the EU to certain groups of people - like the farmers.   Now they in particular, face an very uncertain future, waiting to see whether the Government is going to take up the slack.   Which by all accounts they won't.   And even if they do, that money will probably have to come from the 'saving' on membership which it has been suggested would be better going to the NHS.

Far too few looked at the wider picture before placing their X - understandably because we simply WEREN'T TOLD!!

For eg. did you know that the European Health Card most of us have probably have, won't mean anything now!!   There may be some form of partial agreement re treatment if needed in Europe, but the reciprocal agreement won't be there!  And if it's down to taking our Insurance, how much is that going to cost!

MamaBas, do you doubt the possibility of dual nationality or the Scottish grandmother? I am disappointed about the dual nationality if you're right! However my grandmother was Scots, from Kirkcaldy, and I can trace her ancestors back to Kincardine O'Neil in the highlands circa the late 1700s. Not quite Robert the Bruce, which is a shame, but I'm still working on it!!!

Excellent summary poodlenoodle.

I did know that about the Health Card! Especially terrifying for expat Brits in Spain, many of whom moved there for their excellent healthcare system and who are now in complete turmoil as to whether they will be able to afford to stay, with the £ down and their pensions worth less, and their health needs increasing with increasing age as everyone's does. And what the NHS will do if all those people are forced to return here is another worry. Very scary times.

I think another reason Scotland voted Remain is that throughout the indyref we were lied to and scaremongered by the press and the UK government/Better Together. We complained about it but we're told we were being paranoid and dramatic. But for example the UK government actually broke the legal agreement to print The Vow so close the referendum, and swayed many frightened undecideds into voting No. And within a few weeks the vow was in tatters. My parents in law recieved letters saying their pensions would be "reviewed" in the event of a yes result, even though the reduction of pensions in those circumstances would be illegal. They were scared to lose that income! Within days of the result the reality, that the pensions would have been safe no matter, came out and was a bitter pill to swallow. The lesson was a tough one, and there were a lot of regrets hence the massive surge in SNP support in the following general election.

So the Scottish electorate were just already much more likely to disbelieve the press, double check every assertion and talk to one another about which way to vote and why. The political awakening, where strangers at bus stops were getting into discussion about common currency vs a Scottish pound vs joining the Euro was amazing to witness. It has left us, as a demographic, much more politicised. I am sad for those who voted based on the emotive lies and media sensationalism, as this is such a dramatic and painful result, but perhaps it is time everyone saw just how rotten our political system can be. Not democracy but elective oligarchy. There are better ways and despite this complete disaster, if we all remain awake and engaged we will find one for ourselves.

For all those wondering - I am (in the most immediate sense) English born and bred (though admittedly have been here 30 years, since I was 5) and have been made entirely welcome in Scotland. It is a very inclusive place, especially the major cities and central belt.

So if you want to help build a socialist country where we look after each other then move up, no Scottish blood required as Scotland seeps into blood quite quickly. You have to promise to vote Yes if asked again though

MamaBas    it was all about the cost of membership of the EU, based on scaremongering figures put forward which conveniently left out how much had come FROM the EU to certain groups of people - like the farmers.

UK is/was/always has been a net contributor to EU which means UK puts more in than they get back - one of only 5-6 out of the 28 member states

Private telephones were quite rare when I was young in ordinary homes, my dad in his youth had been a grocery shop delivery boy complete with the big basketed pushbike, cap & short trousers

For those who want a bit more info on this, here's a fairly good source.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

I don't think it appropriate for this thread to turn into a government bashing, PM insulting and socialist promoting one. Furthermore as someone who voted Leave, the inference both here and in other places, that the 17.4 Million of us who did, voted so out of ignorance is beyond insult!

It was a democratic vote, I do question if the result had gone the other way by the same margins, how the Remain folk would have reacted if the Leavers had behaved as so many Remainers are!?

have been here 30 years

In that case you'll probably get a 6 months visa.
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I am sorry you feel my posts inappropriate. I will not stop posting because of that though. I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. If you feel our leaders are doing a wonderful job of steering our nation in this time of relative instability then you are entirely free to post such. Also socialism is not illegal and I have every right to have and express socialist opinions.

I have not said every Leave voter did so out of ignorance, though certainly it is clear some did (as did, no doubt, some remain voters - as highlighted above the facts were particularly difficult for the average person to find and appreciate). Perhaps you voted Leave for solid economic and social reasons, and would like to share those here to offer a different perspective?

One thing Scotland learned in the aftermath of the indyref is that you can vote for the winning side, but you cannot silence or disregard the other side. You have to live together, collectively with your decision, going forward.

> MamaBas, do you doubt the possibility of dual nationality or the Scottish grandmother? I

Och noo.   I have no doubt you have a Scottish grandmother.   My doubt was whether you'd qualify for dual nationality!!!   I don't think anybody can claim dual nationality unless they have, say, British born parents but happen to have been born overseas.      You may well find a line back to Robert TB - I'd imagine many who have any Scottish ancestry may be able to do that.   So I'm not unique in that!!

As an aside, all the people I know with a right to dual nationality tend only to have one, as when one needs one's embassy to help one when abroad, it generally helps if they have no option whatsoever but to help you (if you have a dual nationality they can send you to the "other" embassy and let your other home-nation take care of you!).

Try this one - a British born friend of mine married an American and now has American citizenship.   They came to the UK to live for a couple of years where their daughter was born.   She, the daughter, now has dual citizenship - her dad who has American citizenship, came from another country, not UK either.

I'm off to take our 12 week pup to the (grey, rainy) beach for his first look at the sea, so I'll be away from my tech. I just wanted to thank everyone for what has in the main been a great, respectful debate. I know I'm a terrible bleeding heart liberal and a nasty Scottish nationalist to boot, but I do try to think hard about my stance and re-evaluate why I have it. So many thanks for the supporting and opposing views. Very invigorating.

The cyber c in me is chuckling at Bonking Boris, now denying he ever quoted the £350,000,000, yet was driving around in a bus with it emblazoned on the sides, doh the man is a fool

I voted leave and not out of ignorance either. The health card will still work as eu do not want to be saddled with bills from visiting tourists etc. It will still stand....

I'd sooner everyone realised a majority vote won and it's done and let's re group and act positive.

If Scotland gain independence are you happy to pay prescription charges,student fees now? As Scotland get a settlement figure from England and they choose how to spend this. Will the EU give thesame amount and you keep free prescription charges and student fees?

Oh boy lkj I remember all that!  And at 14 years (still at school) I got a Saturday job on the mobile veg waggon.  I had to go to peoples sheds and find the written order with money.  Back to wagon to assemble order.  Thanks for the memory of great times.

> The health card will still work as eu do not want to be saddled with bills from visiting tourists etc. It will still stand....

Not necessarily, according to the travel 'expert' on TV this morning.   It is another thing that is an unknown at the moment and will have to be sorted out.   The EU won't be saddled with bills - the visiting tourists who happen to need medical care whilst out of the country, might!!   

And for me, the majority didn't 'win', they just prevailed.   There is a difference.   Eventually time will tell exactly who 'won' and who didn't.   As for Scotland, the United Kingdom and the EU, again so much is unknown, even down to whether separation from the rest of the UK happens, and whether Scotland would qualify for entry into the EU which would surely have to be decided by the EU.   Whether they want another country who might take more out than putting in, is debatable.

As for voting not out of ignorance, not even the experts knew/know what lies ahead as the result of this decision.   I didn't and am reasonably intelligent so my vote went to the devil I knew, rather than the devil I didn't.   Which seemed to me to be the most sensible way to deal with this.

I wish I could feel more optimistic about the immediate future, but right now I can't.

"Bonking Boris, now denying he ever quoted the £350,000,000, yet was driving around in a bus with it emblazoned on the sides, doh the man is a fool "      White man speak with forked tongue.

I just about recall the grocers boy delivering to my nan. I'm now thinking of that advert with the hovis young lad pushing bike up that hill! I used to love the rag and bone man too and in some areas you used to get a goldfish from him in return for items!

I also recall the green shield stamp books and the booklet with the good you could buy. Nan used to have loads of books.. I also recall the pop man and taking bottles back for 2 pence. . Used to love the sixpence coin before we changed to the new fangled system as my nan called it!

I wonder if we had had newspaper cuttings from the time of Viking invasions, Roman Empire here,William The Conqueror and the huge change of parting from Rome and the Pope with Henry VIII creating his own church! What would have been the comments made? The fury for for and against ? We have changed a lot during the centuries and we survived and moved forward.

I just would like to see us all go with the new journey and look for positives.... We all still live in a freedom of speech,clean water,free heath care and a war free country isn't that something to be positive about?

I remember green shield stamps, my mum was an avid collector.
Incredibly, when we clearing out a deceased relatives house last month I found some green shield stamps along with co-op stamps and a co-op divi book.bthey never threw anything away.

I agree MamasBas none of us really can know what lies ahead. We can guess,assume and hope all sorts of outcomes. I know it's better the devil you know works sometimes however change always feels like quicksand under foot at the start. Medical science doesn't stay with better the devil you know or space travel or new inventions.  Sometimes a leap of faith for new horizons is required. I'm looking optimistically ahead cautious yes but also positive

I'm back! He had a ball and we practiced recall on the sand (on a 30' line we occasionally let go off as he ran to whoever was holding the treats/blowing the whistle). He was absolutely brilliant every time. What a cracking lad this wee boy is.

I'm not sure why you think prescription charges and further education will be charged in an independent Scotland?(personally I have a condition which makes my prescriptions free anywhere in the UK and as my parents had moved back to England when I began my undergraduate degree, I paid for my own higher education in full anyway - only Scottish students are educated for free, as an investment in the future of our country, our universities attract lots of foreign students, who pay). The Scottish government made that decision, not Westminster, and currently they pledge to stand by it. The nhs funding from Westminster is fixed and has to be juggled by our ministers to meet demand, if we were independent we would have full tax raising powers, and could decide how to spend that revenue. High earners (a group to which our household belongs) would pay higher taxes, and the really wealthy even more. Yes, I would be happy with this. I would love to live in a more progressive, socialist society. I would accept having less if it meant being proud to live in a country that cares for its people. I don't see why I should be entitled to more than enough when others don't have enough. We are a small nation, we can afford to think that way. I feel the current government cares about money more than anything else.

Unfortunately the Leave voters won by only a few %. The 45% of Yes voters haven't piped down since 2014 and as lies were revealed and promises broken their number has swelled, as you see now the Scottish government have not let go of their ideal of independence. You have an even harder job with 48% of voters now unhappy. That's the problem with marginal results, you don't have much more of a voice than your opponents and they are angrier than you, as whatever happens they will remember they didn't want this path. Already there are hundreds of Leave voters voicing regret online. This is one of the risks of calling such a divisive referendum, it creates huge disharmony. The Scottish government had a plan in place to salve the wound as soon as the result was in - you might see now how practiced Nicola Sturgeon is at cutting through the chaos, as she had to do so after No prevailed and Salmond stepped down.

Meanwhile the sky news political editor just stated in the news that neither the Leave nor number 10 have any sort of plan for the predicament we now find ourselves in, which is a shocking neglect of duty in my opinion. Where are our leaders. I am so glad to be in Scotland and have a leader I trust and who seems to have a plan.

Good you had a lovely walk with your boy! I took mine out in the drizzle along the roads today.

Im glad you have faith in your leader I don't share that feeling with said leader... When you hold a vote there is always a winner and a runner up (if I say loser  its politically incorrect?) The outcome is maybe marginally 4% it's still the same outcome . If 50/50 exactly id understand demands for a second referendum.

Regarding Sky News political Editor  views that is an assumption/guess re stats not a bone afida fact. Every TV political Editor have different views or ideas. Unless a fly on the wall camera in government no one will know the 100% facts....

Now have an exhausted international student her first full kit 17 mile walk for D of E to feed and give a little tlc too. She btw is from Hong Kong

Have you seen the interview?  He quoted an unnamed minister word for word, so not quite an assumption/guess.  I would like it better if it wasn't true, but i would believe more it wasn't true if there was a winning-side MP or someone on the news reassuring us all of what is going happen now.  Sturgeon is very focused on Scotland's interests, so i wouldn't expect her to have appeal elsewhere

17 miles in full kit!  Kettle on in your house!

Sturgeon is very focused on Scotland's interests,

Is she,   it does not look that way to be honest, it looks like she is only interested in getting her own way,  what confuses me is that Scotland voted to remain in the UK 2 yrs ago,   she campaigned for independence  for Scotland,  yet now she wants to have a second referendum to stay in the EU,   that`s not independence , you will still be  governed by outsiders!

But that`s all immaterial now, as its been pointed out to her  its not on the cards Scotland has to leave with the rest of the UK,  and then apply independently,   that a bit like jumping out of the fire into the frying pan, but before that she would have to have a referendum to leave the UK again

what is disappointing in the whole referendum is that democracy is being challenged,    and i am talking the whole of UK,  we voted,  we need to respect this and move on.

How many referendums does it take to get your own way (this is not just aimed at Scotland)  , do we keep going till one side gets what they want,  then what another and another............that is not democracy  does anyone want to see that go.

Totally agree jackbox

I agree Jackbox the vote should be respected, regardless if you voted in or out.
If by any slim margin that Scotland are allowed to remain in the EU ( if another referendum were to go ahead and they were to become independent ), would Scotland be able afford the fast amount of money the EU expect to be paid weekly?

Well said Jackbox! GSP, I doubt if the EU would want Scotland without the UK's financial contributions!

I am not sure, but I think Scotland are net gainers from the EU, so why would the EU welcome them?

I agree with you, where would they find money to pay in?!

Poodlenoodle, there's a couple of things I don't understand in your arguments:

You say that a referendum is not appropriate, due to lack of knowledge and expertise of the voting public, yet you only apply this to the EU not the Scottish independence referendum.  Surely there are similar, unknown repercussions for both?

You've also suggested that even people with PhDs in economics struggle to grasp the full connotations of stay/leave, so why leave this decision to a government not made of people with those qualifications? 
PhDs tend to be quite specific in their remit, though it gives an indication of their abilities to analyse at a certain level, it doesn't necessarily make them experts of this, particularly in these uncertain times.

Edited to add: Jackbox is spot on - in that it would just be a different external governance for Scotland

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....uhh........."Come back Aethelwulf............the muppets have done it again & its all gone pear shape......."
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Tue
Yeaaa, thanks to the out voters we're back chaos....well done folks
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