When I am weighing the puppies (which so far has only been at birth and then today - and they've all put weight on), mum gets worried. 

Often when I pick the pup up, s/he gives a squeak and mum gets up and looks wide-eyed and worried and comes to see what I'm doing with the pup and I end up trying to hold mum away long enough to get a reading on the scales(!).  All the other pups fall off her and squeak and it all just seems a bit traumatic(!).  And that's just one pup...

I've tried weighing them right next to her in the whelping box so she can see what I'm doing, but the problem is the floor is soft and the digital scales won't work and weigh accurately - I have to put them outside the whelping box on the kitchen floor and put the pup in them there.

When my OH gets back on Friday, I can have him take mum out for a toilet break or garden wander whilst I weigh them all, but is there anything I can do before then?

Mum is ok going out to toilet (if I've got her out to feed her first!) but besides that wants to be with pups all the time, almost runs back inside after having been to the toilet and is back in the box instantly... I know this is normal...

Do tiny pups let our a yelp or cry? I have mainly found for the first few days/week that all they do is little bits of meowling as I call it? Maybe your bitch is aware of your reticence at being comfortable with them all? I have never yet had a bitch that worried about me being with her and handling the pups...in fact Sasha came across and presented her bum end to me when she was struggling with Charlie...he came out with paw presenting and obviously wanted my help getting him out...which I obliged with!!!

I would suggest not weighing them, if they are feeding and quietly contented then why stress Mum, it can wait til you have some help if you really think you need to

I just wanted to keep track in case anyone is losing weight or not doing well, so I can put them on a nipple if I see them getting left out. 

But Ive just had a brainwave (dur) - if I use a hardback book, I should be able to sit in the whelping box and put the digital scales on that and do it all under mum's nose...  I'll try that and see if it works...

I would only weight pups for worming as you can usually tell if they've lost or gained weight just by picking them up.
Fishing scales & smallish bag is brilliant for accurate weighing.

I wouldn't weigh .... Go by eye and how content pups are behaving. Relaxed Mum the most important thing:)

Okey dokey...

I weigh my puppies every day at the same time for the first four weeks.  In fact, we have to show the weight chart at the kennel and litter inspection (which I am having tomorrow, whether I like it or not...).  From 4 weeks on, we have to weigh once a week.  Right at first, Mum is a little perturbed when I pick up one of her puppies and take it away for a moment, but she quickly learns that there is no reason for her to get upset or nervous.  In fact, it builds trust.  Very soon it feels like a partnership between the two of us.  She knows she can count on me and that she needs me!  And she knows I will not harm her puppies.  I find weighing very important, especially with my tiny puppies (average birth weight 180g -220g), as a drop of even a few grams from one day to the next can signal real problems.  I like to have the reassurance that they have gained those 20g to 40g in the last 24 hours!

That's good to hear Nimue, how do you weigh - inside the whelping box or outside?  On the floor, where mum can reach, or up on a table?

Maybe I start inside the box with her watching...

If the box floor is too soft for the scales to weigh properly you could stand the scales on a tray inside the box to give it a solid surface.

I do weigh (and am meant to keep a record of pups' weight as an assured breeder). Smallest pup I've had in my toybreed weighed just 98 g at birth and then every gram counts. With my bigger breed, there is no way I could tell if they had lost or gained something like 30 g, but there's a big difference between losing it and gaining it in the early days. It's also extremely useful to be able to compare litters. I have 11 pups from a bitch right now, her second litter, different dog. Last time she had 12. This lot weighed up to half a kilo more than the previous at 2 weeks of age. Huge difference. Sire bigger this time.

I've never had a bitch be worried about me picking up pups and weighing them, as they trust me. However most bitches are extra cautious with everything for the first 3 days or so -the time when they don't want to leave the box at all.

I concur with Goldmali
It is so easy to miss a pup that is not gaining as the others are. Weighing daily if poss at the same time but I too have never had a problem from my bitch. Always do in the same room so not taking pups away as such.
Interesting as I was asked about this at my Assured breeder inspection. Although I have always done it I don't keep the records litter to litter but she seemed to think I should do so probably will in the future.,

>That's good to hear Nimue, how do you weigh - inside the whelping box or outside?  On the floor, where mum can reach, or up on a table?

Hi Rabid.  It's not very complicated.  I've got a digital/battery kitchen scales which weighs pups or anything else up to 5 Kg.  So I put that on the table with a mixing bowl on it, set the scales at 0 (I can choose whether I want grams or ounces), and then put the baby in the bowl!  The one annoying thing with digital scales is that the numbers in the display keep jumping around.  But you get used to that and can make sense out of it even though you might be a gram or two off, but the daily weighing makes it all come together into a progress you can interpret.  I find the normal scales less accurate.  Maybe with your large breed, you will have to change how you weigh as they get really big and strong, but for now with the newborns, this ought to be fine.  On the weight chart I keep track of the wormings, the day they double their birth weight, the day the open their eyes and anything else I want to be able to check back on.

P.S.  The table I have the scales on is right next to the box with Mum and the babes.  So she understands pretty fast what I am doing and is OK with it.  She trusts me.  And it's very true about comparing litters in the future.  How many times have I gone to my records and compared weight charts, just to calm me down about this or that!

I weigh every day right next to the whelping box and my bitches watch closely from day one, but they don't get stressed....they trust me that puppy won't get harmed or be very long in my hands. They get a good wash when they go back in too.

I keep records of weights for the KC assured breeder scheme but wasn't asked for them on inspection- and we had two inspectors on the visit....one being assessed, but I keep them just in case they want them next time they inspect.

Thanks, I'm going to persevere because I do want to track their weights.  Hopefully she will get used to it and I'll try to do it as close to her as possible.

At the moment, they fit in the little bowl that comes with the digital scales but as they grow, they definitely won't, so I'll switch to the bowl idea!

FWIW, I preferred to weigh daily to be certain each puppy was gaining.   It's easy to assume but then eventually find all is not as it appears to be.   HOWEVER if mum is being stressed with you doing this you may have to curtail weighing them for a few days - until you have somebody there to get her out of the box while you do this.   I always made sure I 'gave' the puppies back to mum after being weighed (in the box - I had old fashioned-type scales with a bowl to put the puppy in) so she knew she could trust me with her babies.    And I'd be in there handling the puppies right from the start so there was trust.

After birth, last night was the first time I weighed. I usually wait a day or two as you can tell if they have gained by observing the ribs for the first couple of days. I use a redundant baby scale that pops was lucky enough to be given for marrow weighing at the garden club! As we are in the study, I put it on my desk and weigh pups when mum is outside the box eating her late night meal. I change the bedding and weight each pup before settling it back in. Later, this will also be the time I worm them and clip their claws - this way, any upset will e short lived and they will have a little suckle before dropping off to sleep.

So far the gain has been astronomical as these wee ones were born heavier than the last litter. However there were 10 in the last mum and 8 in this one so that must play a large role in this. So far we have:

Baby girl black: birth weight 375g to 660g
Baby girl brown: 330g to 650g
Baby boy green: 390g to 640g
Baby girl pink: 390g to 760g
Baby boy blue: 382g to 640g
Baby girl purple: 389g to 730g
Baby girl red: 330g to 620g

Is is a breed thing? My girls want out of the box by day 3 and only go to check, settle, feed and clean but other than that prefer to either go and rejoin the pack or sit next to the box. A little bit inconvenient  for me as I do not relish the task of looking for blood stains and cleaning the carpet wherever she's been and obviously I cannot be in two places at once.

Right now mum is sat in the doorway between the study and conservatory, I'm sat on my mattress next to the door and the pups are fast asleep on the non heat pad side of the box. Room temperature is 22.9 degrees and they want nothing to do with the heated side. A friend of mine breeds miniature somethings and she commented on my last litter how advanced my breed was than her's at 5 days old. Do my breed mums feel they are able to leave the pups because of this? (Sorry Rabid for asking questions on your post - not trying to hijack I promise! )

> I've got a digital/battery kitchen scales which weighs pups or anything else up to 5 Kg.

Ditto

> The table I have the scales on is right next to the box with Mum and the babes.  So she understands pretty fast what I am doing and is OK with it.

Ditto

As long as yore pretty quick it works fine.

I do handle the pups a lot at the milkbar from the word go, so she doesn't' worry about me moving them around the box, so a quick lift onto scales and back isn't long enough for her to worry.

OMG gsdowner, I can't see my girl being like that any time soon!  She won't even get out the box when I'm preparing her food (and you know what a greedy guts her breed is - she wolfs it down when I give it to her), and immediately she's finished, I have to encourage her out to toilet or she'd be back in the box.  As soon as she's toileted she runs to the door for me to let her back inside and hops back in the box and checks everyone. 

She is a very attentive mum - when a pup squeaks, she knows which one it is, even if she's not looking - she turns and checks the pup out, so she knows what their individual cries are and which pup is which(!).  Sometimes in their sleep they let out little barks or yelps (v cute!) and she then nuzzles whatever pup did that again, to check they're ok.

If a pup is getting lost wandering around the box and squeaking, she nuzzles the pup to tell him/her where she is.  The pups are all spotless and there is no poop in the box.  They are all doing brilliantly putting weight on and twitching about when sleeping and are very feisty and loud(!).

In terms of handling, I'm sitting in the box with her a lot.  If I pick a pup up whilst sitting on the floor of the box with her, her nose is on that pup like she wants to check the pup out.  I can hold the pup whilst she nuzzles him/her, but she wants to nose/sniff the pup for as long as I hold it.  If (as usually happens) the pup makes protest noises whilst I'm handling, she is even more alert and wanting to nuzzle the pup.

When I changed the bedding yesterday, it was tricky - I had to take all the pups out the box and put them in a tub because I needed to take out the fake/extra cardboard base I'd put in for whelping.  Mum was a bit distressed about where all her pups had gone - even though I showed her all of them in the tub, I think she associated them with the whelping box and was worried I was chucking one out with the cardboard(!) - she wanted to check the dirty cardboard when I put it outside, and then she went into the garden to look for any pups out there(!?).  I quickly put the vet bed in and pups back in the whelping box and peace was restored.

She is just a really attentive/attached mum so me lifting up or taking away a pup seems to worry her - hopefully this will get better as they age!  I'm also continuing to handle them even on the ground of the box itself so she gets used to that.

> She won't even get out the box when I'm preparing her food (and you know what a greedy guts her breed is - she wolfs it down when I give it to her), and immediately she's finished, I have to encourage her out to toilet or she'd be back in the box.  As soon as she's toileted she runs to the door for me to let her back inside and hops back in the box and checks everyone.  <br />

That is exactly what you want I do everything to encourage a strong bond, by feeding the bitch in the box.  A pet bitch very attached to her owner may be conflicted so it means staying with her so she doesn't feel the need to leave them.  The bitches focus should be her brood..  We interfere with the natural instincts enough.

I expect my bitches to stay with pups all the time for at least the first three days, on day four they may decide to lie outside the box for a few minutes.  I won't encourage them to spend any time away (no walks) until after their eyes are open.

At the moment, they fit in the little bowl that comes with the digital scales but as they grow, they definitely won't, so I'll switch to the bowl idea!

I bought baby digital scales for my larger breed pups (pretty much same size as yours) -you can get them for just around £30 on Amazon and can keep using them right up to they go to their new homes as they weigh up to 10 kilos (although by then I only weigh once a week).  I found the smaller digital scales with a bowl turned impossible very soon for large pups as they made the entire scales wobble and you could not get a correct reading. Works fine for toypups and kittens though.

Believe me Barbara, I am trying everything to keep her in the box but she is basically doing exactly what my last girl did. In that instance, I believed it might be because she is more attached to the husband, being his working companion and that was why she was determined to be near him. At one point he had to command her to get in the box and stay there! Once she thought she was working, she did as she was told. But even then trying to get her to stay in the box the majority of the time was difficult and that's why we thought her to be a 'career mum'.

This girl however, isn't a full time worker but known to produce workers - hence the mating. With her last litter she was attentive and protective and stuck to the pups like glue. This time she prefers to sit outside the box and watch her brood. As soon as there is a mewling pup she is up and in with them. The room is off limits to the others and no one except hubby and myself have touched them, cleaned the box etc. She is cleaning them, feeding them, careful not to squash them etc. The only annoying thing she does is to try and cover them with the vet bed by taking one corner in her mouth and pulling it over to cover half the box before asking to go out to the toilet. On her return she can't put the vet bed back for fear of stepping on a pup so is nudging me to put it right before she gets back in! The room is semi dark and cave like.

Food is prepped in their conservatory and brought in to her. She won't eat it laying next to the pups but prefers to stand. That said, she is yet to finish a meal in one go and has eaten half and returned to it a couple of hours later. I am slowly reintroducing the RAW and this is going down better (had to wait until her tongue was a little better as she eats her RAW frozen. She doesn't like sloppy consistencies and was struggling over the last few days with softer food), she will eat it in one go and is now only getting soaked kibble for breakfast and dinner. Over the next few days I shall phase it out completely.

I sit with the box all of the time - leaving only when everyone is napping and for no more than 5-7 minutes at a time. Even at night, she has to walk over me to get out of the box and has scared the living day lights out of me more than once when I have drifted off only to wake and see her face staring down at me, inches from my face! It's the only way I can keep her in there.

It's the only action my weight watchers scales are getting at the moment, I'm certainly not weighing any food on them

> She won't even get out the box when I'm preparing her food (and you know what a greedy guts her breed is - she wolfs it down when I give it to her), and immediately she's finished, I have to encourage her out to toilet or she'd be back in the box.  As soon as she's toileted she runs to the door for me to let her back inside and hops back in the box and checks everyone.  <br />

>That is exactly what you want I do everything to encourage a strong bond, by feeding the bitch in the box.  A pet bitch very attached to her owner may be conflicted so it means staying with her so she doesn't feel the need to leave them.  The bitches focus should be her brood..  We interfere with the natural instincts enough.

>I expect my bitches to stay with pups all the time for at least the first three days, on day four they may decide to lie outside the box for a few minutes.  I won't encourage them to spend any time away (no walks) until after their eyes are open.

DITTO!!

That's  what I meant that there is conflict between  their animal instincts and their domestic attachments/training.

Also if they were my pups and Mum then they would be too warm.

I have found more than 20' and they are restless and overheating.

Have to say mine like yours are a double coated breed, I realise Though  some breeds will need more warmth.

Yes they are too warm and I am having to turn off the heat blanket entirely during the day. I have it on the lowest setting over night as temperature has dropped to 19 degrees. I am having to leave the door open to circulate air but won't turn on the fan in case they get chilled. Mum is probably choosing the conservatory floor because it is cooler. I found it easier with the winter litter to be honest. Even I am struggling sitting with them all day as I am getting sticky and wishing for a 3rd shower around midday...

How low could I possible go temperature wise without chilling the pups?

Hoping puppies continue to thrive... love hearing posts about both litters gsdowner's and rabid's. What a lot of work,time,energy and love that goes on to raise a litter of puppies....
Hats off to you both x

This is why I create a whelping pen using Cardboard around the pen up to about 2 feet, do no chance  of dtsughtd as the whole covered by a blanket,  with just the entrance  clear for the bitch. I have  one of those large  room thermometers attached to the pen side and using the hestpad I keep the temperature at 20'C. This way I can air the room, circulate air  etc so that we and mum are comfortable.

I always keep an electric oil filled Hester by the whelping box on thermostat so it comes on if temp by box falls.

>do no chance  of dtsughtd

I love this.

dtsughtd

???

I'm still trying to decipher this word too

Maybe it is meant to admonish us all:

Do no chance of dtsughtd!!!! 

Try reading as............So no chance of draughts!!!!

Oh what a pity.  I liked dtsughtd so much better than draughts. 

bloomin mobile phone

> do no chance  of dtsughtd

no chance of draughts, can't use those fiddly phones

Also hester = heater

hee hee  ! 

No dtsughtd here.

Anyway, I'm pleased to report that tonight mum was totally cool with me weighing the puppies.  I sat in the box with her and the digital scales on my lap, on a hardback book.  She watched but stayed lying down and seemed quite chilled about it even though the puppies made noise.  Whether that's because she's learnt I'm ok or because she's more chilled, or because I sat in the box, I've no idea, but it's good. 

I have nothing to report, other than sometimes she is a little whiney and I can't tell why.  It happens after she's come in from outside and done a pee/poo and walked about.  I can't tell if she still might have some after pains as her uterus contracts back down and maybe moving around aggravates them.  (How long after birth do after pains last?)  There is no discharge in the whelping box *at all* from her, it is immaculate - I haven't changed the vet bed today - but I have seen her cleaning herself from some dark discharge and when she pees today, there has been dark gloopy strings coming out - I squished one and it was green.  But I remember you all saying that was ok, so I'm not alarmed...

Only other thing, is I think her lips are getting sore from all the bum cleaning and licking - they're going red and losing the hair a bit at the very tips of her mouth.  I'm guessing there's not much I can do about that, other than wait till they start peeing and pooping by themselves, right?

Barbara gave me the suggestion of putting Vaseline on the lips to help the soreness...don't know about your girl but when when the hair grew back on my black girl, it has all come in white :(

With the whelping box being a cardboard box there is very little chance of a dtsughtd here either and the clock/temperature/day/month gauge is telling me it's 23.2 degrees in there without the heat pad on. The window is south east facing so we get the sun for most of the day. I am thinking of switching on the air con in the lounge and allowing the air to circulate. It is a full 2 rooms away so no direct air or chill hitting the pups and hopefully cooling the general room temperature down will entice mum to stay with the pups. She sits near the box and ensures no one goes near the room - which they can't anyway, and does everything she should be doing, just preferring to do it from the doorway...

I think the pains will be there for some time as my girl has been digging in earnest today compared to the last 2 days and poo was a little soft today too - though it is back to normal colour wise and no longer black and sticky. Our gloopy stings are red and I think we are past the green goo stage. Vet bed has some blood staining as does the carpet in the study, the cold floor in the conservatory, a splodge in the lounge, a drip next to the communal water trug (she refuses to drink out of the bowl next to the box and asks to go to where the others drink, then comes right back)...Floor wipes are disappearing a lot quicker than I had hoped

ETA: I should really read my posts before firing them off and sending them without checking - plurals mixed with singular, confused tense, O's instead of I's....If  OFSTED came checking, I'd be in trouble!

My girl must have a cast iron stomach, other than one slightly runny dark placenta poo, all her poos have been normal and one a day :)

PS I am not OFSTED

>I have nothing to report, other than sometimes she is a little whiney and I can't tell why.  It happens after she's come in from outside and done a pee/poo and walked about.  I can't tell if she still might have some after pains as her uterus contracts back down and maybe moving around aggravates them.  (How long after birth do after pains last?)  There is no discharge in the whelping box *at all* from her, it is immaculate - I haven't changed the vet bed today - but I have seen her cleaning herself from some dark discharge and when she pees today, there has been dark gloopy strings coming out - I squished one and it was green.  But I remember you all saying that was ok, so I'm not alarmed...

Rabid, I can only say that if it were my dog, I would have her checked for retained placentas.  My females leave generous stains for a good long time in the box where they are with the puppies, and it is never green per se.  It is "dark" or else red.  You say your female seems to have a discharge only when she pees, poops and moves around outdoors, and afterwards she is a bit unhappy (whiney).  I don't quite know what to make of that.  My females never exhibit any kind of pain following a whelping.  Could a retained placenta block the discharge in the box (where she lies quietly), and then when she goes out and relieves herself, the placenta makes itself known....?  And hence the green color, still...?  I don't want to worry you, but it wouldn't be all that difficult to have her checked.  Maybe you could ask your vet what he or she thinks.  Have you, by the way, tried pulling on the "dark gloopy strings"?

Nimue, lots of people told me on the other thread (the Labour one that's locked), that it would be normal for her to have green discharge for some time afterwards... bucksmum has the same breed as me (I think) and said this...

I think, just like women (!), it isn't coming out much when she's lying down but only when she stands up and more so when she pees.

Yes, I pulled on a bit that was hanging out when she had a pee earlier and it came out, but that's all it was - it was like clotted blood but it was green when I squished it, rather than red.  It wasn't attached to anything else.  I've seen this same thing 3 times when she's peed today, and it just comes out on the grass and is left there.

I think it's probably too late for an oxytocin shot now - I was told by another breeder that it could cause her uterus to rupture if given this late(?) in which case there's not much to be done other than preventatively put her on ABs or wait and see... I did ask a vet nurse who's also an experienced breeder herself, and she said that in 18yrs, she'd only seen retained placenta twice and the concensus from everyone here was that I shouldn't worry about it because most people don't even see whether or not the placenta has come out, most of the time....

I could take her temperature, but I know it runs higher for a few days following whelping anyway so I'm not sure if that would tell me much or just make me worry.

Well, she just whimpered at me and I took her out and she did a ginormous poo (not runny) and a pee with more of the stuff coming out.  So I wondered if she wanted to do that, but didn't want to leave her pups...

Then we came back inside and she got back in the box and did a whimper again (as she does sometimes after toileting, and which I'd thought might be after pains).  Surely, at just 48hrs after whelping, if it were an infection, it is too soon to be causing anything observable?  I do know someone who had a retained placenta situation and it was at a week after whelping before they knew...

Should I be worried, what do others think?  Starting to wish I'd got the oxytocin jab now, but no one at all seemed to think I should - here or the stud owner or anyone else I asked...

Is it possible for you to get someone in to scan her? A good scan person should be able to tell if there were any retained placentas. My girl had retained placentas with both of her large litters. The vet removed them during the c-section for one litter and because of this I automatically asked my vet to give her an oxytocin jab and antibiotics after her next litter was whelped. She had discharge for about 6 weeks after giving birth.

> Only other thing, is I think her lips are getting sore from all the bum cleaning and licking - they're going red and losing the hair a bit at the very tips of her mouth.  I'm guessing there's not much I can do about that,

Vaseline helps loads

No, we don't have any mobile scanners here.  The only scanner is at the vet's...

Won't she just lick off the vaseline, Barbara?  I'll try it!

It won't do any harm, (It gives a barrier, and I don't use loads, but apply several times a day) its no different to us using it on our lips in winter.