I think the uses of oxytocin are changing (ie when to use).  I have a great book I really recommend by Phyllis A Holst called 'Canine Reproduction' - she's a repro vet. She says (scanning this in with scanner pen!):

"It is normal and natural for the bitch to take a prolonged rest during delivery of a large litter.  If oxytocin is given, it may cause not only the next puppy to be moved down toward and through the vagina, but may also result in detachment of its placenta, along with the placentas of the following pups, and a rupture of their amnionic sacs and loss of fluid, and ultimately result in the delivery of puppies dead from suffocation.  Oxytocin should never be given simply to speed up delivery.  It should never be given to stimulate the start of labour...

....the more dystocia cases I see, the less inclined I am to reach for the oxytocin vial... Following delivery...in most cases it is possible to tell by palpation of the uterus whether delivery is complete.  If the uterus is properly contracted and has good muscular tone, no injections or treatment of any kind are indicated.  It is not necessary to give oxytocin routinely after every delivery.  Such treatment is simply not needed in a normal bitch with healthy whelps that are suckling normally.  If, on the other hand, the delivery has not been normal (uterine inertia, puppies pulled, premature detachment of placentas, retained placentas or other complications), an injection of oxytocin to stimulate uterine regression would be in order."

All is good thanks saxonjus, I will stick around so you can get the end of my story and let you know how our whelping goes - I really hope it's more straightforward than poor gsdowner's!

I had the senior partner perform the c-section on my girl (at 2 am) and he said afterwards that they could have given her an oxytocin injection but in his experience we would have lost both the puppies.

Books are a good reference tool but when you are in the actual situation, with your girl in labour, I will take the advice of my vets over any book. I am very lucky in that my vets are amazing, with loads of dog breeding knowledge and still cover their own out of hours surgery.

> Palpating, and giving oxytocin doesn't always tell the whole story - mine have had oxytocin which nothing and the vet went in.    I have also come home after being told the bitch was empty (no x-ray) and one was born at home - clearly out of reach from the outside, and moved too far forward to be felt via palpation.

Just to correct what I wrote - trying to keep a few balls in the air at the moment, so this was done in a hurry......

Should be ".... - mine have had oxytocin which PRODUCED nothing and so the vet went in (C.Section)."
Also   "..... and moved too far forward" ....  should have been too far back (over the pelvis), depending on which way you are looking 

Congratulations and well done to hold your nerve like you did against  Terrible advise( vets not here!)

I would have done exactly the same as you. I know it is incredibly sad to lose a pup but you don't know if that pup would have been alive with a c section either and to have a c section done by either of those two young vets could have risked your bitch. No, I would always put bitch before pups and they did not sound anywhere knowledgable enough to be advising you.

A litter of seven is a lovely number for a bitch to rear.

Right...had an ultra quick shower - pretty sure taps run slower than that, a couple of slices of toast and my first cup or coffee in 2 days (bliss!).

New question: Mum seems to be struggling to keep pups clean - especially visible on the white ones. Lots of yellow bums. Her tongue is obviously ulcerated. I have tried to help but each time I lift out a puppy she gets a little frantic and practically tramples the others to get the one I've got back...What can I be doing? 6 pups fast asleep, one trying to feed or needs a clean so letting little whines out. Also one has a rather wet umbilical stump and not the almost dry black stumps like all the others...

There was no way I was letting those 2 open my girl up - even if it meant the loss of puppies....God know what would have happened. Might have gone ahead if the senior vet had turned up but definitely not without him. C-sec might still happen if we aren't clear and I might be wrong but she seems gearing up again after a short nap - no pushing etc but she has a look about her that just screams 'don't start napping mum!'

All we can do now is watch and wait.

I hope no one ever has to go through what we have over the past 24hrs and counting. May anyone who ill wishes a breeder and bitch in whelp be cursed by the fleas of a thousand camels, directed directly at their crotch and their arms be too short to itch!

Love your curse, best I've heard for a long time.

Hopefully it's just her uterus contracting back to normal which is making her feel restless.

I wouldn't stress her by lifting pups out.... I would wipe bums while they are lined up feeding if necessary.

Could the pup with the wet stump be the last one that was born hence not dried yet?

Anxious,agitated looks not uncommon due to afterpains which will be her contracting back down,usually worse when pups are feeding. Then again wouldn't be surprised if there were more......

As the advert says..... You're doing great!! X

>Mum seems to be struggling to keep pups clean - especially visible on the white ones. Lots of yellow bums.

Have you had a poop check done on Mum?  I am still worried about all that diarrhea.  Wouldn't want the puppies to get it.  I never like yellow bottoms.  I don't want to worry you, but do have a word with the vet you trust.  If it were my bitch, I would have a blood check as well, just to rule out any type of infection.  I do really think you should have her checked right away.  Have you checked her temperature?  Directly following a whelping it can be a little higher than normal, but still I would check.

Oh my goodness, what a night you've had.  Very sad about no 7
Congratulations on 7 healthy pups, hopefully all done and dusted now.

Congratulations on your new arrivals, very best wishes to you, your girl, and her babies.  What a busy night you've had!

Although I don't breed, I've been following your thread with interest and hoping all would go well.

I agree with Nimue...Don't see any poo on my newborns as usually hard and bitch has eaten it on way out. Do get yellow poos later on occasionally if they have gorged too much milk but this sorts out once weaning.

For peace of mind maybe take a sample in to vet for A check,I wouldn't take the bitch in though. You would want to stop runny bums on pups before they get dehydrated

I think they will all need to go in as they seem uncomfortable and unsettled when they are awake. Temperature in the box is 23.6 degrees and the ones sleeping on the heat mat are nicely spread out - not reaching for cooler corners etc. All have yellow bums now. The one with the soft stump is no. 5.

Mum has refused food. She ate half of her food last night and again half this morning and delivered pups after both meals. She hasn't wanted any since. She is drinking fine.

ETA: She has just eaten a placenta as I was typing. Pulled it out on her own and ate it as it was coming - did not wait for it to be delivered. Not 100% sure if the yellow bums are due to her attention being on her rear end quite a bit because she is cleaning them but obviously missing some of them.

I don't breed and have nothing by way of knowledge to offer but you are all in my thoughts gsdowner. You really don't deserve the luck you're having. In terms of prep and care I'm not sure how you could have done better. Hopefully the vet can sort your girl and her babies out asap and you can (finally!) get some rest. Please please remember to look after yourself too. No human mum = nobody to look after the rest.

Lots of strength and hugs. xx

For this reason I give mum soft foods,  if kibble well soaked (it also keeps water intake  up). I use vaseline on lips and nose and also  on her rear and legs where the birthing fluids sometimes scald down to the skin especially happens with a long labour. 

I use unscented baby wipes on pups, while  they are feeding from Mum, never move them away from her, so she doesn't  get anxious. 
This bonding time is very important.

Gsdowner, don't wait.   Get everyone to the vet today.  It's important.  Newborns have little to NO leeway when it comes to fluids, warmth, and so on.  You must not "wait and see", you must go to the vet.  I know it's not my business.  Please consider this just a sign that I care.

Or perhaps call the vet out to you, for a house visit, so you don't need to worry about transporting everyone and upsetting them?

I would echo that Rabid, A visit maybe better. We always have the vet visit after a birth to check everyone over and make sure. My vets bring the scanner with them now to scan Mum to be sure. Maybe I am lucky with my vet as they seem to be quite good scanners. If they then consider a surgery visit in order because they find a problem we pop them in the car and go down, nothing lost but a few bob and the bitch and pups are worth that, if all is well then we have saved Mum the stress of a visit. Hope all is well. x

Well we've been and in some ways - fat lot of good it was. Yellow runny poo is 'normal'....ERR NO it's not....Try giving mum probiotics to help settle everything. Nothing can be given to pups. They are feeding and hydrated. Observe and call back if you have concerns. No need for a stool sample yet from mum or pups :(

On the plus side - x ray taken - no pups visible and a shot given to help clear anything remaining out 'although retained placentas are exceedingly rare but it's your call...'

I think I will be changing vets...

My pups ended up with loose stools at a week old. Took them all in and after research and a few phone calls I was sent home with oralade to syringe into the pups and with the manufacturers advice on how much to keep them hydrated.  Might be worth a call.yourself to the company to see what they say about your less than 24hrs old. Could you possibly call a different vets practice for advice and see what they say?

I have just messaged everyone at dog club for a vet closer to home who might actually know something about breeding and puppies...waiting to hear back .I shall have a look at oralade and try to contact them too.

Mum has been having tinned tripe to entice her to eat but so far she isn't having anything to do with it. As long as she is hydrated I shall watch to see how she is in herself.

Also...what about pro kolin? I have some in and I have given it to a 3 week old pup before as prescribed by the vet although I know there is a vast difference between a 3 week pup and a day old.

Goodness, take a poo sample in from 3 different poos from mum, and insist they send it off!

I would not give pups anything other than mum's milk....

For your own sanity it may be a good idea to just take a sample in to the vets and ask them to check it. Yes, yellow poo can be normal in pups but it's the runnyness that would worry me.

Another line of thought.... What is your bitch eating? I helped a friend whelp a litter and when I went to see pups a few day later their bums were covered in poo.... He had been giving Mum milk! Please don't take this as a criticism, just thinking out loud..... Could it be bitches diet. I'm sure you know everything your bitch eats will go to pups through milk so is she being fed anything rich?

Oralade is great for rehydration and very palatable. I always keep some in for any tummy upsets to give them during a starve or if they have been working very hard. I have never used it on a nursing bitch however so not sure of effects going through milk to pups.

Prokolin  I would stick to Mum only..... Quite thick for newborns.

Pro kaolin was a big no from the company for such young pups. I wouldn't give anything other than mums milk if she has enough or top up with replacer milk that you've chosen until the vet confirms what to give once you find one. A week is a big difference in pups from less than a day old to a week old so I wouldn't go and just give this but it's something to find out or ask the vet first.
I would get a stool sample from mum and take it in. As for giving mum pro kaolin again that I would check with the vet

I gave mum within the first few days as she didn't want her own dinner lots of vanilla ice cream and then I mixed up on the advice of a good breeder dark sugar, goats milk and eggs. So scramble it in the microwave. Also she got goats milk too.

I use liquid Life Aid. It's for cattle etc, but it's helped many a puppy and kitten of mine, and adults as well.

I have known some bitches (as well as queens) to not keep their puppies properly clean for the first day or two, really just being worn out.

I have the biggest grin this end!  Talk about a late arrival!  It has been so nice to travel the journey with you.

You're right about real dog people getting involved with people they don't know.  More than once I've stayed up to give support in the early hours when someone needed a bit of guidance.  I wish you well. 

Be very careful what you give Mum to eat.  Don't experiment with all kind of things in an effort to tempt her to eat.  Canned tripe is something I would not give, as it is quite fatty and something I don't believe would be advisable to have go through the milk to the pups.  I had a bitch a couple of years ago (2013) with diarrhea after the birth, and all the vets could do was to try to talk me into giving Royal Canin stuff, which is (if you read the labels) pure junk.  I finally cured the diarrhea (the babies had it too and were squirming with cramps, it was a Sunday, the vet on duty was still a student doing his internship, etc.) by cooking boiled chicken and sweet potatoes.  I gave Lulu that, she loved it, and it was like a miracle!  As to the Royal Canin I had been using for many months previously, I threw it out and have given my dogs grain-free food ever since:  Wolfsblut and Orijen.  With gluten-free canned Rinti as well.  Do you have Rinti in the UK?

I would not worry about her not eating, the placentas will keep her going for 48 hours, make sure she drinks though even if you have to offer her something you wouldn't normally give like milky tea or sloppy custard. I find chicken cooked in water with rice and fed with all the liquid is quite often a favourite, if she will drink dioralyte (for humans) that would be ok for hydration and runny poo.  I would not give the puppies anything if they are chubby and contented, she may have loads of milk and the puppies are having a lot of colostrum which can give the poo a very yellow appearance.

My lot are usually fed raw and she is fine on that normally. In the last 3 weeks of pregnancy she didn't want a 3rd raw meal so we opted for forthglade - again she was fine on this. Prior to switching to raw we fed Barking heads with Butchers tripe. Since last thursday she has had some of the tinned tripe as a 4th add on meal. Her runny bum started on the tuesday of the chv vaccine.

Right now all she has eaten is a couple of tins of tripe last night and a tin's worth this morning. Both times she went on to whelp pups. No milk or supplements, not even the egg and evaporated milk mixture. Since then she has eaten a placenta and is drinking normally. The pups were starting to get hot so I turned the heat pad down and they are much more settled - feeding and sleeping.

The vet advised giving mum the pro kolin and I do have that in but would prefer to stick to live yoghurt as brainless advised. She is cleaning the pups better now since we got back from the vets and had the extra shot to clear her out. She is obviously tired but 'with it'.Still trying to keep her back end clean and will try to gently wash her down before bed tonight.

With pups being here, she hasn't had any panacur today and I won't be giving any more to her now. I am in the process of switching vets.

>No milk or supplements, not even the egg and evaporated milk mixture. Since then she has eaten a placenta

Forgive me for seeming to harp on this.  You should definitely not give cow's milk and that includes evaporated milk.  I gave Nimue after the whelping on April 21st a mixture of water, lactose-free yoghurt, a little glucose powder (just for the heck of it) and - for a while - a very fresh raw egg yolk beaten into it.  She lapped it up.  A few days later I was able to continue to get the fluids into her even though I often left out the egg and the glucose.  Since it was Nimue's first litter, I wasn't sure how she was going to be in terms of milk production.

Placentas are notorious for causing diarrhea.  I don't let my girls eat all of them at a birth anymore.  (Besides, I want to enjoy some of them myself, right?  Yum!)

update:

Since the jab to clear her out, mum has settled much better, is cleaning the pups, more attentive and resting instead of obsessing about her rear end. Obviously there is still discharge but she is cleaning it as and when instead of all the time. I have changed the bedding and it is apparant straight away that the yellow stains have all but gone at the moment - however it has only be over an hour since changing the bed. She has eaten half of her dinner which was well soaked kibble, half a tin of meat and 2 large dollops of live yoghurt. She has been out to eliminate and there is no blood in her wee and although her poo was black and sticky (almost tar like), I put that down to the offal type rich placentas and it was formed (yay!)

Pups are feeding and sleeping well, still a little whiny at meal times when searching for a teat but generally much more settled. I am obsessing about the box temp as it is currently 23.5 degrees. They feel ok to the touch and some are sleeping on the side with the heat pad and others are snuggled up to mum. Anything above 24 and they scream blue murder.

I think the adrenaline is wearing off now and I feel bone tired. Might try to catch some kip when the munchkins are sleeping.

Everything sounds fine and normal, the poo after placentas is disgusting but apparently good for them, see if you can get a good rest, all will be well in the morning

Sounds great! Yes, poos after placenta eating are black and tarry. The nutrients in them will be very nourishing for Mum and pups though. However I don't think I'll be eating mine in 4 months time!!

Look after you as well x

As much as I sympathise with your predicament, I am SOOOO loving reading your posts, they have me laughing and crying in turn and I think I am going through all of this with you.  Your posts are so eloquent and amusing...you should write a book!!

I hope that I haven't yet arrived at the posts proclaiming the birth of the puppies and that you are now much more settled and your girl looks 5lb thinner!!!

It sounds like you're getting everything under control now!  Oh, I am so glad.  Now you must take care of yourself for a change!  A big bravo to you!!!

Feeling more rested this morning thanks and the troops seemed to have rallied - mums, pups and the other 3 who all insist that they too are pregnant and require the same level of pampering (mostly my boy)! The girl who had her pups 6 months ago is determined to make sure her lot aren't back and is miffed at not being allowed this side of the glass. My youngest - daughter of current mum is disgusted by it all and has taken herself off to bed - ours, obviously - as I won't using it for the next 2 weeks why should I care?

Pups still seem to whine quite a bit when searching for mum and milk but soon settle. There is one who likes the sound of her own voice and chortles throughout feeding too. I can see where this is leading. I might sound stupid but right now and it may be too soon for predictions but I feel my litter of 9 was easier than this litter of 7 will be. Both mums are biddable but you could literally hog tie the other girl and she'd let you and probably tell you that you were doing it wrong in the process. This girl can be a little stubborn and the sire is a very self assured young man. However, she is easier in the sense that she isn't a 'career mum' and in it for the long haul.

Glad we are a source of some fun for others and hopefully anyone reading this will realise that although breeding isn't as easy as simply putting 2 dogs together, it has it's highs and lows and even though we may not physically be popping the pups out ourselves we are one with our girls and 'feel' every push, contraction and sense of relief as each one emerges.

Will keep you posted as to how we get on and hopefully there will be a good few new recruits in this box :)

Hope all continues to go well. You enjoy some rest with butties, tea and possibly a little forty winks or fifty. The dreaded question of will you think of having another litter pops into min!

You have to seriously love this job (and I suppose it is like a job - you have a routine and schedule to stick to, if you don't do the jobs associated to it no one else will, there's a lot of work with little gratitude - except for from who it really matters, your girl, the pups and the new parents, a lot of overtime and very little pay!)

Would I do it all again? In a heartbeat. Would I do it with this girl again? Ask me in a year's time. Would I do it with her daughter? Most likely but if she turns out the same - then they'd both be spayed. Could this difficult whelping be a one off? Possibly, as she had her last litter in 4 hours. Believe me I have thought nothing but this since the last pup born yesterday morning.

Sadly there's no one here to make butties and hot drinks. I have a travel kettle in the room with me so it's coffee, fruit teas and cup a soups until hubby gets home - he works 7-7 seven days a week.

Here's a laugh for you - this man only goes in the kitchen if he's dragged there...last night he came home from work and declared he was cooking dinner...40 minutes later he asks me to come see his progress...6 fish fingers, 2 small battered cod, 3 waffles and a garlic bread cooked at gas mark 9 in the oven and a small tin of baked beans obliterated in the microwave for 4 minutes! He was so apologetic. I ate it because it was more than what I had managed throughout the day and kept telling him it was lovely....God help me when it's my turn and I'm pregnant.

Anyone want to volunteer as live in house keeper???

I had a good laugh at this!

My ex and I parted ways when my eldest was 4 months old. His finest effort was, when I was breastfeeding and starving and she wanted to nurse 22 hours in 24 (which can be a sign of a problem but in her case wasn't) he made me....a completely rock hard baked half an oven pizza with....a fried egg on it! I asked if he was having the other half and he replied, "no it's still in the freezer for tomorrow (HE'D CHOPPED IT IN HALF, WITH SCISSORS) I'm just going out to get a curry for me." And that isn't even the reason we broke up. Lol.

My husband now isn't much better in the kitchen, but he would never not get me takeaway, and is extremely knowledgeable on the topic of m&s ready meals. When I had my babies with him I was fed rare steak on dressed spinach around the clock (which I loved).

I do feel bad for you not eating properly. Could you maybe, when he's home, butter yourself lots of bread and slice up lots of fillings and then you can assemble a sandwich if you pop for a wee, without it taking much time? Or even do yourself a coolbox and have ingredients all to hand in the nursery room with you? Two of my kids have autism and one has ADHD as well, when she was little she would go to sleep at about 2am and be up again at 5am, I used to make a packed breakfast every night so that she could sit next to me in bed and nibble and I could sleep until 6am. My youngest is equally crap at sleep and gets up for 3 hours in the night, but luckily tends to go back to sleep before dawn so we can have a "normal" breakfast. But no sleep and no food will break the best if us so look after yourself :)

Just to add..that wasn't all for me - we shared apart from the garlic bread and beans - he ate the bread and I had the beans.

To be fair I'm not minding it this way - just think..I might lose a kilo or two with the help of these babies and any weight loss is a step in the right direction of me finally having my own litter. I do actually enjoy the slimming world chicken curry even though it is a ready meal and I'm not keen on most so hubby will stop off at iceland for me and pick up some more. He said he was picking up KFC tonight (other fried chickens are available ;) ) and I will do a double portions curry tomorrow and freeze.

Thankfully this girl can be left for 5-7 minutes at a time and so far I have managed 2 loads of washing (hers), a mop and steam of the the floor in the whelping room, a shower, toast, poo picking and feeding the others...granted its a mad dash but I'm happier knowing it's done as many of you will agree that canine amniotic fluid has a distant aroma of it's own and baby monitor is on all the time too :)

Get some ready meals in so you can shove them in the microwave when your OH is at work. A God send as they take a matter of minutes to cook.

FYI if you are on slimming world KFC rice box is only 4 syns and very nice! But definitely try to look after yourself - you have done amazing as has your girl!

I've missed all this while on holiday - so glad that although traumatic you and your girl have made it through, and that the puppies are now thriving!