Being able to buy stuff in EU and not have to pay duty

If we stay we can always look to leave another time. If we leave that's it.

What dearer mobile calls! Sacred bleu that's a strange plus for the 'for' campaign to use!
it's taken forever to bring them down. I'd like to see border controls on all Europe countries brought back whether in or out...Look how easy it was to cross from France to Brussels after the Paris incidents...

just re-read my original should have re-read before I posted it, what I meant to say was ................IN are saying that to keep low charges is a reason to stay in otherwise if we leave the charges will go up

All over the U.K. there are 'Wind Turbines' popping up here there and everywhere, us British (public) don't appear to have any say in where these 'Wind Turbines' go ...?  its all decided for us (EU Targets have to be met). If you like looking at 'Wind Turbines' and want to see 'Many More' (possibly near you) then vote to stay in.

There is also a lot of 'Pollution' that goes into making all these 'Wind Turbines' which makes you wonder whether or not its all been worth it ...?

There is also a lot of 'Pollution' that goes into making all these 'Wind Turbines' which makes you wonder whether or not its all been worth it ...?

As much as 'making' & >maintaining< power stations?
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Anyone wishing to have a wind turbine has to have planning permission with certain very strict exceptions

The "Wind Farms" all have to have planning permission

Planning permission has nothing to do with the EU. So voting in or out will have NO effect on the building of them. I suggest you get your facts correct before making such statements

BTW I personally(as a person with dual nationally)will be voting to stay in as I voted Yes in the previous referendum. The total numpties of the leave campaign make me shake my head in disbelief.

Tommee for each side they always have a numpty a colourful personality to add some zing.. Every party promises all kinds of changes and pushes blame to the others. When anyone gets 8n power these promises are either scaled right back, oops we found a note we have left you nothing in kitty or with the current economy we have had to push back our plans..... for me all parties speak with forked tongues.

I think that if we stay we will regret it.
I can't see us ever getting a vote on this again and it's only going to get worse.

When these turbines eventually get taken down, can you see anyone actually bothering to remove the foundations ?

You consider that a proven liar/ criminal is a colourful character ?? Sorry a convicted criminal should be banned from government at any level.

You stated the Wind Farms are part of the EU's control of the UK, they are NOT & their building is under total control of the Local Government & not the EU. The Brexit mob also claim this which is a blatant lie.

Interestingly less than half of the excess immigrants of 300,000 are from the EU, less than of the EU immigrants are from "new" Eastern European countries. The vast majority of this figure(the 300,0)come from ex British colonies & some possibly over 20,000 are returning ex pats. These figures are totally misleading & don't accurately cover the situation." There are lies, damn lies & statistics"

It will be an 'in' vote from me also. Too many advantages to being in the EU that become unknowns outside and the economics of it is the biggest factor for me. I could talk about it for hours so I won't even start.

Interestingly, Hethspaw, my daughter (18) would probably agree with you on the age limit for voting (although not as young as 45!). Not as a lack of respect for older generations but simply the fact that the impact of any change will ultimately be felt most keenly by the younger generations and she would like that taken into consideration. And she isn't the first young adult I have heard say this.
BTW, not saying I agree/don't agree. But it is an alternative view, like it or not.

It's interesting reading people's views from both sides.

I'm a postal voter.  I've cast my vote and returned it.

Those who want out have never actually put down proposals of what they would actually want to do, all they go on about is the negative on the eu. Only thing today was they wanted to bring in the way the ozzies do it for work permits. Surely they must have some idea of proposals if we leave, to say they don't know, well they must have some idea of their ideals. Heard some want to get rid of VAT, well is that a proposal or not? We know where we are if we remain but no one is giving anything if we leave apart from we would be in charge of our own destiny, well then lets hear it as to what they would actually do rather than go on about what's not good about what we have now. Sorry but the leave campaign holds nothing for me right now because we have nothing that they would actually do. Tighten our borders. With what?? Where are these extra staff going to come from? If they cant be recruited now how will they be after? We have good laws in place, we need more staff to implement them. Where will the fruit pickers in east Anglia come from? Farmers have already said local people don't apply and don't want that work so does it, mainly the eastern Europeans. So what happens to his livelihood?

Britain is 'Changing' so quickly these days. Look around you, are you are happy with all the changes, more and more people are living on the streets with absolutely no where to live, yet more and more people from overseas are encouraged to come and live here. I welcome people from overseas to come and live here, but first we have to help all our homeless people (give them somewhere to live) and then build more houses for people to come in from overseas.

Tommee I did not in my post advise proven or convicted criminal at all . Think you added words to my post.
Plus I never mentioned wind turbines either.

Voting to remain in is for the well-off.  Voting to leave if for the not so well-off.

> Why did Margaret Thatcher ask for a rebate?

And what a HUGE one she got in the end!! 

> Why did Margaret Thatcher ask for a rebate?

And what a HUGE one she got in the end!! 

Katien
Interestingly, Hethspaw, my daughter (18) would probably agree with you on the age limit for voting (although not as young as 45!).
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but simply the fact that the impact of any change will ultimately be felt most keenly by the younger generations and she would like that taken into consideration.

HP
That reminded me I forgot to answer someone Q as to why I thought that, well more or less for the reasons your 18 year old said, those below 40 will have to live with the consequences of the vote for most of their adult life & if the choice is the wrong one they will have longer to deal with whatever negative results that might bring. Over 40, well, there is not going to be an overnight catastrophy but if the choice is the wrong one they will 'probably' be around 50ish with an average of another 15 years working life left before things show serious negative effects.......I think that fig is far to imbalanced when someone of 18 now would have around 38 years of worsening times to come, not really fair when looked at from that angle.
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To those who want to remain in the EU, what are your thoughts in relation to 'the current housing crisis' (shortage of housing with many people homeless) for me this question is the crux of the argument/debate, this is the very question that people (those that want to remain) appear to avoid answering ?

Your thoughts please ...?

There isn't a shortage of housing perse, it's being able to afford to buy and the lack of affordable rented sector.

Obviously anyone coming here from EU will face the same issues of finding somewhere to live.

Sadly there are so many empty properties, closed Public buildings that could be used for temporary housing for the homeless.

Lots of Brown field sites for housing development but the recession hit building trade hard.  Arguably more EU workers coming over would help rejuvenate house building, if they or the resident population can afford it.

No-one comes over without possibility of housing or work, as no unemployment benefits are payable until someone has actually worked here first, no job or housing and they go home.

A lot of buildings being unused are being turned in to temporary houses re the guardians scheme. You apply to pay rent in old school halls,factories etc until they are knocked down or revamped..

Last day to register for your vote in the referendum . How many people will still protest on voting day they didn't know they had to register?

Where I live there is a huge problem with the homeless. There is a lot of help in the city but they must be willing to help themselves as manyou of these places won't allow drink or drugs inside. I know getting off the drugs is hard but many go through different rehabs time and the again. There are plenty of charities around as well. There are ways and means if you are willing to go and find them. I see many people moan that ex service personnel are homeless and then the country are helping refugees. I wonder how many of them actually put their hand in their pockets and donate to the relevant charities like many have done for the refugees?
I don't believe leaving will make one iota of difference with immigration.We don't have sufficient staffing levels on our borders now so where will these extra staff come from if we leave.
Also we have to consider if the vote is to leave what negotiations will take place with the EU by our politicians. Most parties want us to remain in the whole. So if they adopt the Norwegian or Swiss way it means a single trade market which in turn means freedom of movement for all within the EU, so immigration won't change. Which is many people's concerns who want to leave.

The vast majority of Europeans who migrate here as the result of being EU members are excellent workers here, they are very, very highly thought of here in London as far as their contribution goes. They come here to work and thats exactly what they do very well indeed.

Speaking as someone who once employed a small number of people I would certainly employ a European migrant before a fellow Brit, for reasons stated above.
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I don't have an issue with immigration or EU workers either but then from speaking to a lot of people around the UK that different areas are experiencing different things with EU migrants. I'm south East based as well and everyone seems to be getting on well, we are all integrated and therefore I don't have this problems that small pockets around the Midlands and Northern cities and towns appear to have

I don't have an issue with immigration or EU workers either but then from speaking to a lot of people around the UK that different areas are experiencing different things with EU migrants. I'm south East based as well and everyone seems to be getting on well, we are all integrated and therefore I don't have this problems that small pockets around the Midlands and Northern cities and towns appear to have

I don't think this "In Out" vote is all about immigration, I think its clouding the judgement of many people. I think its much more about economics and the ability to make and uphold our own laws and punishments without the EU overruling our decisions.  I also think that any reforms the are casually banded around by David Cameron as being about to be introduce once we vote in are just wishes and dreams and may very well be thrown out if we do indeed stay in. We are not voting about immigration alone, or economics or rules and regulations. We need to look at the bigger picture, do we want to have a much better control over the way our country runs itself or are we happy to hand much of it over to Brussels. If you believe Brussels will accommodate our wish to control immigration, will let us keep sterling, will allow us to uphold our own laws etc. then vote in. However if you think many of these things will turn out to be the carrot on the stick as I do then vote out. Cameron said tonight that if we leave and wish to trade with the single market then we will have to conform to all the rules and regulations Brussels impose...sorry ! As far as I can see much of the problems caused in the UK stem from the cheap imported foods and goods from the many countries in the EU than have much lower standards of both welfare and health and safety issues that the UK conform with already, so that's not going to be a problem then is it ?
We will always be part of Europe, we can and have in the past traded and travelled with no problems. We are a very good customer to Europe importing far more that we export. We have some of the best health and welfare laws in the world and have the ability to produce top quality goods. I know which way I am voting. I have read and listened and taken it all in and sifted every piece of information I can. I hope I am making an educated vote, No Doubt only time will tell and everyone is entitled to vote with their hearts. But we should if we are going to vote at the very least find out as much as possible first and not vote without great consideration.

I agree. On your point about welfare - (I'm from the agricultural administration background), take pigs as an example. Cheap EU imports have ruined the pork industry in the UK. Our pork farmers have to abide by strict welfare standards that are UK imposed. Yet we import cheaper bacon and sausages from with in the EU that, although they have a welfare "standard", it's no where as high as ours. That's what makes it cheaper. Milk is also struggling, one of the supermarkets top milk processors is an EU co-op. All the individual benefits of the U.K Milk producer are shared between this EU "farmer owned" co-op. We think they are getting 28p, they get 8p with the rest going into Europe. Give us market control. And as for subsidies, many farming associates I speak to say if they can't run a profitable business without a grant, then should they be running a business at all.

There isn't a shortage of housing perse, it's being able to afford to buy and the lack of affordable rented sector.
but its the shortage of available housing that pushes house prices up, also that's why rents have gone up.

Obviously anyone coming here from EU will face the same issues of finding somewhere to live.
so what chance of those already homeless in Britain (countless number unfortunately/sadly) got of ever getting a house to live in ?

If there were no homeless people in Britain and the Government was already building houses for the many coming in from overseas, then maybe I could see some sense in staying in the EU ...?  Just my humble opinion.

There are the homeless in all countries. You won't ever stop it.

There are the homeless in all countries. You won't ever stop it.

I agree with you on some of that. Sadly I've seen far too many people say they are voting out and it's on my fb page for you to read if you've not done so that people are voting out because of immigration.

I'd like to stay in the single trades market, non EU countries who are in it are doing OK by the looks of things. We stay in we keep it, we leave chancea are it would be a negotiation and something likely to remain but we just done know. If the likes of Boris turned around and said if we leave these are the proposals I'd like to negotiate around, but no one person wanting to leave has said what they would like, whether a full break or whether to negotiate on things. That I would like to see what they would actually want from the main 3 parties  only.

I agree with you on some of that. Sadly I've seen far too many people say they are voting out and it's on my fb page for you to read if you've not done so that people are voting out because of immigration.

I'd like to stay in the single trades market, non EU countries who are in it are doing OK by the looks of things. We stay in we keep it, we leave chancea are it would be a negotiation and something likely to remain but we just done know. If the likes of Boris turned around and said if we leave these are the proposals I'd like to negotiate around, but no one person wanting to leave has said what they would like, whether a full break or whether to negotiate on things. That I would like to see what they would actually want from the main 3 parties  only.

people are voting out because of immigration.

Yes they are, but, I doubt it's because of the europeans, I think it's more to do with the North as well as other parts of Africa 'exodus'.

As regards the europeans, we dont know how many Brits are working in europe, I think one big thing is just how stupid that 'Shangen' policy is...when it was originated I do not believe it was ever intended for millions to flood in.

I do not actually think of or percieve EU workers as migrants. Coming here for them is usually a temp thing (based on conversations I've had with a few of them) because there is plenty of work here (London) in comparison to poland and some other places over there, but as EU member states it's no different to those in wales, ulster or england bogging off to scotland to work, which numerous english have done to work on the oil related jobs on the rigs.

I am against the N African exodus migrants coming without minute scrutiny, they are trying to get away from problems their culture created, only they can solve it.....

But, in the meantime, thanks to youtube, a small window onto the consequences of Merkles' decision has opened, Merkle, the very same woman who in Syria would be bought & sold as 'property' on any market place there.

You may find it interesting to see how they are >trying<() to adjust to German culture, see link.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=germany+migrants+refugees+
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We have immigration laws that prevent people outside of the EU coming in if they feel the need to stop them. Border control don't have staffing levels to actually deal with all the people flying or shipping in or even on the tunnel too. The people I know are moaning about the eastern europeans and how there is mass divide in their towns and cities. We have it lucky down this way I think.
Refugees us a totally different subject and one which has nothing to me to do with the EU and countries worldwide are also doing their bit too.

suejaw, you say you are south-east with no problems.  I'm south-east and we have problems.  A visitor to our county town came from somewhere in Yorkshire and was stunned first by London and then our county. They said they just didn't realise how it was.

There won't ever be 100% NO problems but really we don't have where I live in a city any major issues which mean there are no go areas for any one person.
Yes we have homeless from various countries around a Europe like we do here from the UK. Yes we have criminals but we have those who were born here too. We just don't have that huge divide that other places have and I'm lucky I live in a very multi cultural place where no one really gives a hoot where you were born. Of course we have the antis, where religious buildings have been targeted and businesses too but it's such a small minority who are like this that it doesn't impact on the way of living down here.
TOLERANCE is the word down here and while I think of the crimes that are committed by various individuals they are the minority and I'm lucky to live where I do in respect of the immigration stance

SJ
i]The people I know are moaning about the eastern europeans

Yes the vast majority are east europeans here.

SJ
and how there is mass divide in their towns and cities

HP
Hmm, thats not a problem in London theres different cultures everywhere as a normal part of what London is, maybe Londons not really a place which reflects much about what other places experience. Mass divides are what London is, but, its not a problem, more of an interest for outsiders, eg many weekenders or tourists head to them to look, eg China Town.
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Where I'm from I would say in many respects it's very similar to London. Different cultures mingling and working together. When I walk around the west end where anything and everything goes that's how I feel about where I live.

I like living in a multicultural Britain, but you just cannot keep inviting more and more people from overseas to come and live here when there is already a 'Housing Shortage' for so many people that are now living on the streets.

Many people have fell on hard times through no fault of their own and have been evicted because they couldn't afford the rents and have had no option but to live on the streets because they have been told that there is no houses/flats etc available for them, and there is already huge waiting lists for housing (thousands of people).

I watched one program and it brought a tear to my eyes (and these are various people from different backgrounds).

Inviting thousands of more people from overseas to come and live here will probably push rents up much more, but I guess that's why many are so keen for Britain to remain in the EU and are so passionate about convincing us all to stay in (the rich get richer and the poor get poorer).

Britain should be helping their homeless by building many more homes for everyone.

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Britain should be helping their homeless by building many more homes for everyone.


I don't know about that.

The one thing I love about my country is it's countryside, it's quaint villages and vibrant towns and cities................more and more countryside is being built on, (the past 10 years it's been horrendous) more and more wildlife pushed out.............and I happen to like oxygen

I don't want many more thousands of flats and houses building, as Brainless has said there are plenty of empty buildings and homes already not being used look around any town or city.

If we build more, what will happen? More people from overseas will come over here to live, it won't be for the homeless, let's face it, it won't,  (do we want to look like built up Spain, and other countries volleying for tourists?) No thanks!..............let's just cater for the British population alone, not for an imminent influx.

I also am worried that the more wealthy from overseas will buy up many, many homes, once even more countries join the EU, and leave our children with no homes left to buy, surely that needs looking into? We need to protect our future.

We can't keep building..............

I'm voting out, Britain was GREAT before and will be great again, sick of all the bureaucracy and rules bought in and the self feeding pigs at the trough in Brussels. All unelected and all making it up as they go along!

Not wishing to turn this thread into a 'Football' discussion - but a valid point was raised because of the 'football' situation, that is relevant:

The French Police/Officials were asked why they could not stop the trouble makers entering France. Their reply (I think) sums up the situation perfectly.

"We can stop individuals from entering the country if they arrive by plane or boat. Anyone arriving by vehicle can drive across the borders unchecked".

Reply to Admin
True about crossing borders unchecked but that only applies to the EU  countries that signed up to the Schengen Treaty/agreement. UK never signed up to that ,and never will. We have kept our border checks in place. And being an island country makes the situation easier in most respects.

What the Leave campaign fail to acknowledge is that if we leave the EU, the French government would have the right to move the UK border controls, currently in place at Calais, back to the UK. This could mean immigrants of whatever nation being permitted to board at Eurotunnel and ferries and it will be up to our own government to deal with the massive influx of desperate people that the French government are currently having to deal with.
From what I understand, the French have every intention of allowing this to happen.

Also, I listened on the radio to  the manager of an employment agency  for unskilled workers  -most of the work is heavy and repetitive. Guess what ? he cannot find enough British born workers to fill the jobs available. They don't want to do such jobs. The migrant workers, especially those from Eastern Europe,  are only to willing to take on such work.  It has nothing to do with taking work from UK citizens , nor indeed to do with undercutting wages etc etc . But it has a great deal to do with a culture of entitlement to benefits and an unwillingness to take on work that may be arduous and boring ,this inculcated into the national psyche for so many years. Cutting our selves loose from Europe will cut off the supply of workers prepared to do jobs our own people refuse to do.

Totally agree Jan.

I had a Polish taxi driver a few months ago. He told me he has two degrees (in European history and business) in Poland he had been the regional manager of a national chain of (ceramic) tile suppliers. He said it was his dream job.

I asked him why on earth he left that to come and drive a taxi in the UK and put up with racism and violence, and he told me that him and his wife decided they had to do the best they could for their children, and that he earned three times as much and got free medical care and education for his children here. He works a 55 hour week and is under a massive taxi firm (so he is paying his taxes as every job is logged and declared by the company). He told me he often drives past "young, strong British men" who are begging on the streets and he wants to get out of the taxi and shake them and tell them to take advantage of the amazing opportunities our country affords its citizens. I asked him what happens in Poland if you can't work and don't have money and he said "you just exist". I see a massive culture of entitlement in the city I live in, with loads of young people leaving school with no qualifications or skills and still think they're too good to do an unskilled job for minimum wage.

I worked on a fruit farm as a teenager which used a huge influx of migrant workers every summer. The farmer told me he preferred the eastern Europeans because "if the sun is up they are working and they don't complain like Brits do". It was true, I remember a day one of the UK team (who was on benefits and picked fruit because she could earn cash and not declare it) kicking off because I told her her tray was underweight (i was a cashier and paid pickers for each tray they picked). She started yelling that we'd given her a bad drill (irrelevant since they get a new one every time they'd picked one clean but she'd been assigned at the field edge because she was 45 minutes late for work) and that the world was against her. A Russian chap next in line gave her a punnet from his tray (he always went overweight so as to not waste time in the cashier queue only to have to take trays back and fill them more) which brought her up to weight, and told her to get a grip. When she'd stamped off back to her drill I weighed his fruit in, as he took his payment from me and told me that his summer fruit picking paid for his grandmother's rent all year. He was a medical student in Russia the rest of the year.

The UK is rich because of capitalism. But capitalism relies on people being willing to work really hard and tolerate poverty despite that. If we won't do that someone will.

Excellent post poodlenoodle -and not just because you agree with me.

Just noticed my typo -'only to willing..' should be only too willing ...

True re our students etc not wishing to do menial tasks ie fruit picking, hop picking etc. When I was a student you were eager to try and get a job picking grapes in France (a massive list the vineyards could pick from) and apple picking... it didn't bother me picking or working pt in nightclub behind bar it gave me pocket money.... Too many are given jsa as late teems and then find they should have a 30,000 plus job before they accept work as benefits pay rent/dental/prescriptions/free school meals etc.

The French have always liked a protest they are a socialist country after all. I wish we actually protested as much as the French do.

I'm still voting to leave it's a personal choice.

Interestingly many students and young people seem perfectly happy to do menial jobs in another country such as fruit picking and harvesting veg, my niece and her partner did it as they travelled round Europe meeting many others doing the same, yet seem reluctant to do the same in this country. Perhaps the better weather and foreign adventure is the draw. After all, who wants to harvest cabbages in the rain, much nicer picking grapes in the sunshine.