I have to agree with you Nimue, but we are in numerically small breeds that if we didn't breed those extra litters not only our own lines would suffer but the breeds gene pool would virtually collapse.

I suppose in numerically very strong breeds, especially those over exploited it is a bit different.

Though on the other hand why should the best breeders reduce their breeding, which means the majority of puppies bred are by the purely commercially motivated, and then most of the breed is not typical, or bred for health.

In my breed sadly with only around 50 - 75 puppy registrations a year at the UK KC the majority of the breed are actually bred in Ireland (mostly BYB and Pet owners as virtually no show people left breeding) and unregistered there and in UK from total scum bags

We are back to loose poo....

I am beginning to think heat might be the culprit alongside the panacur. As mentioned before, I do not routinely worm - preferring to do worm counts instead so a chemical - even a gentle one, might be attributing alongside the heat. Yesterday's thunderstorm cooled everything down considerably. She was happier after 4pm and fine up until about half an hour ago when the temperature started to climb again. She has gone back to being restless and fidgeting.

She had her petticoats washed again last night, poor thing.

Certainly the heat has given two of mine loose bowels had me up at 3 and 5am respectively.

The low dose of Panacur may be a contributor, but unlikely to be the issue on it's own, especially if it didn't start as soon as you started dosing.

Would it be any help to clip her knickers right back now, might be helpfuo for when she gives birth too

I know panacur upsets my dogs tum, the only wormer that doesn't have that affect is Millibex although I know it's not a wormer suitable for every breed

Thanks Barbara, I think you might be right.

In the back of my mind however, I am wondering if I made the wrong decision in taking my girl in to the vet when we went for the 2nd jab and should have just stuck to my guns by getting them to come to the car.

Suejaw: we've clipped her quite close now, looks like a poodle round her back end. She is not amused. I, on the other hand, am happy I can see a bit more of what's going on without lifting her tail.

You could try stopping the Panacur for a few days and see if it helps?  Probably you've dealt with the majority of the worm burden by now anyway.

I'm not worming during pregnancy - for the exact reason that Panacur (any wormer, actually) usually gives my dog an upset tum and I didn't want to risk that during pregnancy.

I know some people who have vaccine reactions sometimes say their dog gets the runs afterwards, too - so could be that - but you'd have thought it would have stopped by now. 

Does she seem well in herself, besides the loose poo?  Not any more lethargic?  Eating and drinking ok?  No puking?

Apart from being very, very flat footed, hot and fidgety there are no other symptoms. All meals are eaten, she is gulping water but I think that is down to the amount of panting and the fact that she is too big to keep getting up for a drink. I have put more bowls down for this reason. She's still smiling, bless her.

Just to update:

The poo is still a little loose but nowhere near pattie like and all have been outside. She has peed in the kitchen twice over night but to be fair to her, I did let her out just after midnight and got up to let her out at 4 so she simply can't hold it any more. I do believe the upset was due to a number of factors - CHV, heat, panacur and possibly the unsettling event of driving there etc.

How is she doing this??? The u-boat now looks like the iceberg that sunk the Titanic! She is happier with the cooler weather and although it was muggy for most of yesterday, once the storm broke she stretched out on the carpet and slept with a look of sheer bliss on her face. I am hoping she will not wait till sunday and go within the next few days.

Special thanks to Barbara - the yoghurt has really, really helped.

> the yoghurt has really, really helped.

I was amazed at how quick it worked for Safi who was projectile shooting yellow water to half formed within the day and then pretty normal day after that, She did get the whole pot first day though and half a pot for several days after.

I have only given her 2 tablespoons per meal as she's not keen and as I premake and freeze their raw meals, there is already a probiotic added in the form of kefir. Hopefully things will get sorted quickly. Even though poos are still very soft, atleast she isn't projectile missile shooting anymore!

Ok, light brown straining around vulva, no cleaning going on, no mucus strings or visible evidence of plug. It is dry but seems 'moist' in there. She smells 'girlie' - nothing sinister back there, definitely not poo. Sitting in lounge, panting, uncomfortable in a single position but not dazed. Room temp is 22.2 degrees but she wants the fan on.

Thoughts?

Too bad we can't follow Rabid anymore.  It was her decision, but well...  I'll just say I think she tends to overreact.  As someone who was truly "involved" and spent a lot of time (willingly and with true engagement - it was also fun) offering advice and experience and suggestions, I feel rather as if I have been kicked in the teeth.

Never mind, now we must get your pups on the ground!   

My "thoughts" are questions:

-What day is this from the first mating?
-What is her temperature doing?  Unlike some here, I DO measure the temperature.   Tells me a lot.  I measure (rectally) several times a day from about day 58 (counting from the first mating).

Sadly I can understand where Rabid is coming from as I have 2 mentors that I would never go to for advice - one supports culling non breed standard pups and the other is adamant their way is the correct way and the TBOTB is a load of tripe! My stud owner however is very helpful and I am so pleased to have her advice and assistance.

Try not to take it personally as I'm sure she was glad of your advice and support.

I don't take temperature I'm afraid. I did when my other girl had her singleton puppy but all it did was make her upset, come to me with her tail between her legs and make me obsess about whether the temperature had dropped, was still there or fluctuating.

She is currently stretched out alongside my bed, fast asleep while I drink my coffee, catch up on CD and have pride and prejudice running in the back ground. Making the most of these mornings while I have the chance!

Sadly I can understand where Rabid is coming from as I have 2 mentors that I would never go to for advice - one supports culling non breed standard pups

Well that is against the KC code of ethics for breeders, but of course it was the old fashioned way. Isn't it possible though that they may still have valuable knowledge even if they have views that are out of date?

I cannot endorse culling in any way unless its for good sound medical reasons , but , I am horrified at the prices asked and the terrible practices of breeding merle to merle or white to white etc..to promote colours and exaggerations that carry increased health implications and can see where the old breeders were coming from. Maybe the modern way would  be to sell such pups with a contract insisting on neutering at the soonest opportunity to preserve good bloodlines and reduce the practise (But as we know it wouldn't work so I suppose the old breeders did at least stop it dead (Sorry poor choice of words but it says exactly what happened))
Aileen

I wish it were that way Goldmali.

Our Singleton pup came out gold! The stud carried black and tan and white but the breeder of my bitch stated there was only black and tan and solid black in her pedigree as far back as can be traced so we were only expecting black and tan pups. When I rang to tell him that the only pup in the litter was gold....or apricot as some people label it, he told me to 'Get rid of it. No point in keeping something that can't be worked'. I told him I had no intention of doing any such thing. He rang back 4 weeks later to ask if I had 'drowned the rat' as he had advised as she wouldn't amount to anything and that I would regret spending so much time and effort in raising her. Needless to say, she is one of the best working dogs on the team and has that elusive 'on/off button' that so many working types lack and is a well adjusted girl, living with her handler and his family. He isn't that old to be honest but he won't speak with me now :)

The other breeder has actually passed away.

I have found the stud owners for both of my recent litters have been wonderful - especially the latest one as she breeds herself. The owner of the stud for the other litter is very good to help with matching pedigrees and can tell me which lines might carry issues such as high inbreeding cos and epilepsy etc and both are likely to become very good friends. I wish it could have been the same with the other two :(

It's a shame Rabid left CD as I would have liked to have read outcome of litter.. It's still not good to see a negative comment written after rabid left.
Also define "Truly involved" please?

I agree. I am so anti advertising puppies as 'rare' colours. It makes my blood boil.

A dog is a dog regardess of colour but to be advertised or sold as rare (blue or liver in my breed), sorry it isn't rare it's simply non standard. To then deliberately breed these colours and demand ridiculous prices is sheer stupidity.

I have nothing against these colours. White exists because it was in the foundation dogs of my breed and the creator himself said not to judge a dog by it's colour but by it's abilities. I have two non standard colours myself but I didn't plan it that way and if I were to produce a non standard colour in my litter I wouldn't then advertise that pup at double the price of the others. I hate that some breeders (yes kc reg too) will advertise with the line 'prices starting from'. That pup will be just as good as the others in the litter - not an exclusive rarity with super powers to use as a bargaining tool for the highest bidder (as I recently highlighted about a bull dog that was lilac merle and a triple carrier - she sold for over £5000).

I agree that culling for medical reasons is valid - I paid £150 out of hours to have the hare lip/cleft palette girl put out of her misery and sent to sleep. Culling for colour in my opinion is wrong but breeding to exploit both buyers and puppies because of their colour is disgusting.

I suspect that culling goes on far more than we would like to think . I am well aware that people cull 'miss-marked' puppies or non-standard colours. But we were dumbfounded to have one stud dog owner who came to see our puppies say that 8 puppies would be too much of a drain on the bitch and that we should get rid of 3 as 5 would be better for her.

  Very few people have the skill to  be able to select the "best" puppies while in the nest ,which explained to me the lack of showing success of this particular, long-standing breeder ,who incidentally is a crufts judge.

  We put everything into raising our puppies and each of them is equally precious to us, no matter whether they have ' show potential '. They are beloved pets first and foremost and killing them is an abhorrent idea. It chills me to the core that there are people out there who somehow think this is justified in any way. It sickens me!

BTW we are 60 days from 1st mating and 58 from 2nd...

saxonjus, I am sure we will still find out the outcome - don't worry :)

I hope so! It's always nice to hear a safe delivery of puppies and the eventual leaving for forever homes for them.

Go to her blog to read about it!

I'm sure you can get updates via her website and her champdogs page,

I'm sure I'm being remarkably dim, but I never did work out what breed Rabid had.

I would like to know the outcome too, I hope she pops back to announce the safe arrival if nothing else

>Also define "Truly involved" please?

Means I really cared.  OK?

Oh, and Rabid did say once that she has a gun dog breed, quite a large one.

That's awful gsdowner. On so many levels. A single pup -the poor bitch would have been distraught if she lost it! And why should colour influence working ability. And yes, a non standard colour can always go as a pet -without the rare label and over inflated price.

But we were dumbfounded to have one stud dog owner who came to see our puppies say that 8 puppies would be too much of a drain on the bitch and that we should get rid of 3 as 5 would be better for her.

There is, of course, some truth in this. A large litter is a big drain on the bitch. In fact, back when I lived in Sweden (I left 1988) I was a member of the Great Dane club there, as I was seriously interested in the breed at the time, considering one in the future, having got to know them via a vet I worked for who bred them. In their code of ethics the club had stated how many pups a bitch was allowed to rear -as a member you HAD to agree to cull anything above that number.  HOWEVER, in this day and age, we no longer see our dogs as just livestock (unless we are talking about puppy farmers) and I can't imagine many responsible breeders today even considering such a thought. (I certainly would not -not unless there was something physically wrong with the puppy.) Instead it is a case of helping the bitch to cope with a large litter. More hard work for the breeder, but anyone who doesn't imagine a litter of pups is hard work should not have bred one to start with. My current litter of 11 are 20 days old now. One pup was quite a lot smaller than the rest. The one that always got pushed out of the way. I topped him up with Welpi and weaned him at 12 days of age, and he's now no longer the smallest, and is the first to tuck into the food every meal.

I may be sounding a bit stupid re the culling or as I prefer to call it killing of unwanted puppies, who actually puts them down, surely no vet would do it just because the puppy was the wrong colour or even if there was a large litter. I would certainly struggle to be friends with anyone who would drown a puppy as it would seem to be a horrible and distressing way to die, so which methods do they use, I can't quite believe it can be legal?
.

In the 1950's my mother was shown by a vet how to kill new born puppies which I think we're born with cleft palates.  I don't want to put on here how it was done  there but a different vet used exactly the same technique to kill a budgie 20 years later. It was quick but violent. I suspect they may still use it

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