My pup had his 2nd jab yesterday.

The vet said, "we used to recommend you wait a week, but now we say two weeks before you can walk him out".

I'm not particularly worried about the interval. We live in a very quiet street where I know all the dogs walked past my house so I have let him walk on the pavement directly in front of my front garden a few times, and I have had him out meeting people every day in the car and in arms or in a pram (yes, I am a madwoman) so he is seeing kids, people, traffic, buildings, cats/dogs (at a distance) etc. And I have arranged a puppy playdate with a friend and her fully vaccinated one year old next week.

But I'm just wondering what the relative risks are of waiting one week vs two? Does anyone have a link to the studies that changed the advice? He is full of energy and though his training is coming nicely there are only so many places between my back fence and front pavement that I can vary locations for practice, and he LOVES getting out and it tires him out (even in the pram, it's the new experiences rather than walking, I know not to walk him excessively). So if there was only a teeny increase in risk I would like to know the data exactly so I can decide for myself if, for example, I might practice heel down to the end of the street and back, rather than 6 times up and down outside.

I don't have any scientific studies to link to, but I can say that I've always taken mine out just after 2nd jag, assuming that the point of two is that he may or may not still have maternal antibodies, which is why the booster at one year is important. So, one way or another he should be covered, if that's from his dam, or from the 1st or 2nd vaccination.

The science suggests that if the vaccine works it works very quickly, or the core diseases with modified live vaccines.

Apart from Lepto and Parainfluenza, the first jab may well have taken if maternal antibodies had waned enough, the reason fro two is that if the first doesn't work the second one will if given late enough for the maternal antibodies to have reduced far enough.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/

"The vaccine manufacturer Pfizer performed a field study in 1996. Researchers Hoare, DeBouck and Wiseman assessed vaccinated puppies and split them into two groups.

Group A received a single vaccination at 12 weeks

Group B received a first vaccine between 8 to 10 weeks and a second shot at 12 weeks

When titers were measured (titers are a way to measure a dog’s level of immunity), 100% of the puppies vaccinated once at 12 weeks were protected.

But only 94% of the puppies in Group B were protected …

… despite receiving two vaccines as opposed to one.

It would appear that the first vaccine reduced the effectiveness the the second vaccine.......................

Vanguard also tested the response to parvovirus in their combination vaccine.

They vaccinated puppies at 6 weeks, 9 weeks and 12 weeks of age and then measured their response to the vaccine by measuring their titers to parvovirus.

At 6 weeks, only 52% of the puppies were protected, meaning that half of the puppies vaccinated at 6 weeks of age would get all of the risk from the vaccine and none of the benefit because their maternal antibodies inactivated the vaccine. At 9 weeks, 88% of the puppies showed a response to the vaccine. At 12 weeks, 100% of the puppies were protected................................................

Dr Schultz designed a study to mimic an animal shelter environment. He gave unvaccinated, 12 week old puppies just one dose of distemper vaccine … just four hours before the puppies were placed in a room with distemper-infected dogs. Yikes!

But that one vaccine protected every one of those puppies."

I live in the countryside in a fairly quiet area and have taken my puppies out after about five days, keep meaning to keep them in for a week, but just give up and take the lively soul out for the first walk up the road and back. Only a short stroll, but the mental experience is enough to conk them out for a long time. It's amazing what you can get done in that time.
I've noticed more and more vets saying keep them in for two weeks these days, although mines ok with a week.

Hmmm, food for thought, thank you.

Mine was vaccinated at 8.5 weeks and 10.5 weeks (yesterday). One of the reasons I was curious is that I'm not aware of any human vaccines that take 14 days to develop immunity those with decent efficacy seem to give fairly good cover within 24-72 hours. But obviously I'm not very knowledgeable on dog immune systems hence my asking.

Very odd, I distinctly remember being told the childhood vaccines would take "about three days to give cover" when my eldest was vaccinated (as a paranoid first time mum I was worried about all that, despite breastfeeding - the other two were taken to public pools before vaccination as I wasn't as worried by then!) but I have just read online they now say that proper cover takes 2 weeks. It's only been ten years, the vaccines are the same, but the advice has changed.

I think it probably depends on what exactly the vaccination is for.  What was the time difference, with the old Pet Passport scheme, where you did the rabies jab and then waited a certain number of weeks to titre test?  How many weeks, I don't remember?

Regardless, I think the greatest risk to a puppy is under-socialisation:  Far more dogs are put to sleep each year because they were under-socialised as puppies, than the number which catch a contagious disease that a vaccine would have covered by their owners taking them out too soon.  (Haven't actually heard of any, in the latter category, in 12 years of running puppy socialisation and training classes!) 

My own pups, I currently give 1st jab at 8weeks and take them out pretty much everywhere one week later (9 weeks).  I do avoid very high density dog traffic or toilet areas, like popular walking paths and pavements, but everywhere else, I put the pup down. 

I would be really interested in just giving one jab at 12 weeks in future, but my vet does this thing where they make you pay for both when you go for the first one.  I guess I could pay for both and just go for one, but £60 -ish for one vaccine seems a bit much!

I would go for one at around 14 weeks then titre a couple of weeks later but wpuld do normal socialisation  in low dog areas before then .where vaccines are concerned I am in tje side of less is more

Interesting article, but where are the references?  A link to the study Pfizer did?  I don't doubt the truth of the information - but I'm afraid that Dogs Naturally and its owner are too OTT in their anti-conventional stance for my liking.  I did have her as a friend on FB but she was anti vaccines to the point of dangerous and I got fed up with seeing it.

I'm all for supporting change when it comes to vaccines as I believe we vastly over-do them, but I want to see the research, not just take the word of someone who's written an article with no references whatsoever.

Well i am still undecided, basically.  I have googled thoroughly and read a few journal articles and basically it seems some dogs develop good immunity within a week of the first vaccine and others not even two weeks after the second (though most dogs fall in between somewhere).

We've had a great day, i taught him to touch his nose to my hand before, and he has just had a really good retrieving session (newbie question - he loves his toy birds and will happily chase and fetch them, how do i transfer this skill to a ball?). 

Earlier we took him out to a garden centre, but it had a cafe so guide dogs only, we took turns sitting in the boot with the tailgate open letting him watch the world go past and feeding him treats every time there was a plane passing (near an airport) or loud noises from the nearby car wash station.  I lifted him briefly out onto the verge for a wee and then back in immediately.  Then home and inside for some training fun with the new treats i got him there.  He's currently in his pen in front of me trying to get one nature's menu raw puppy nugget out of a kong, i anticipate a long nap thereafter.

I think on the whole i will take things as they come.  I won't plan to walk him out but if an opportunity/cause arises i'll decide on a case by case basis.  His "normal" daily outing in the pram is the afternoon school run and he won't be walking that for the full 2 weeks as it's partly through an area where there are lots of unvaxed/unchipped/let-out-to-roam dogs.  I think if i walk him at all it will be on my own street, pre-breakfast, as that is when he has tons of energy and enthusiasm and i have the least time to do anything constructive with it (with 3 kids to get ready and out for school).

And rabid i just wanted to separately thank you for your post.

I think what is in my head most is that i have spent 2 years waiting for this puppy, having found the right breed, great breeder, bitch and dog with fantastic temperaments and good health etc.  Now it is all "down to me" i want to be sure of making the right choices and for the right reasons.  Don't get me wrong, i have zero intentions of ever letting this dog down, BUT i do have huge HUGE family commitments.  Part of the reason we wanted this dog was because we have children with autism (and my severely language delayed 3.5yo has learned THREE new words in the last fortnight since we got our puppy, one of which, "now", has led to an explosion of two-word sentences/requests, so i already feel good about this decision) so it is especially important that this puppy grows up to be a pleasure-to-live-with and not a liability.  I am willing to put in a lot of hard work to make that happen, but with things like the socialisation window i feel that three weeks of my efforts now will probably be better for him than a year of effort later down the line.

> but where are the references?

Her main sources are Dr Schultz, and google will get you articles and references.

When a pup I bred contracted Parvo at 7 months old ( older posters will know the story) I contacted the lady in question. She happens to be a personal friend's aunt and she recommended we contact Dr Schutlz direct by email. He was very helpful in answering our questions and I feel probably only replied as we mentioned who had referred us to him. In fact he asked for us to pass on his best wishes to her.... so perhaps she is held with a bit more regard by experts in this line of research than some others think....

Do you have a link to the old threads about this biffsmum?  Was the puppy vaccinated?

No worries, the site wouldn't let me search threads older than a year but good old google found the thread about this puppy.  How heartbreaking, i'm glad the dog survived, sobering that even with "best practice" this can still happen to our dogs

The interesting this 8is that 5the puppy was fully vaccinated at 8 and 10 weeks but had no antibodies when titre tested to anything but the parvo she had survived.

This is why I won't do the second vaccination until after 12 weeks and generally the first at 10 weeks.

I feel that those two weeks socialisation can still be carried out in low dog density/low risk areas.

If the earlier protocol fails to protect as puppy they are then in fact without protection until they are boostered the following year, a higher risk than being extra careful while socialising (gauging risk in your area) for another two weeks.

If I took the risk of vaccinating early I think I'd want to do a Vacicheck Titre test at 12 weeks to be sure the vaccines had taken.

Onset of immunity (& duration of immunity) as licenced in the UK can be found in NOAH compendium.  This is the link for the Nobivac DHPPi data sheet. Note it says only 1 jab needed if given at 10 weeks, i don't trust this because of maternal immunity. One jab at 16 weeks and titre 4 weeks later gives a minimum of 5/7 years.  
http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/Products_Public/Nobivac_DHPPi/090_Product_Datasheet.aspx