I fear that Alibali has gone off in a huff. 

Lets see if she reappears in a few months with problems once the puppies are actually born.

I lost my cavalier age 7 after 18 months of mvd and treatment costing over £100 per month, and he, and generations before WERE health fully tested.

You obviously don't know much about the breed, so leave breeding alone and enjoy your beautiful pet

To the original poster:
Whilst it is true that by cross breeding you are not mixing two close gene pools together and this would undoubtably help avoid the conditions Episodic falling syndrome and Dry Eye syndrome..the polygenic conditions Syringomyelia SM and Mitral Valve Disease MVD ..are far more complicated diseases and by mating a cavalier bitch to a Poodle say....you run the risk of having those conditions PLUS  PRA and other 'poodle common' ones too.

The above is a totally non judgment statement off fact...do with it what you will.

The one thing I can never understand with breeders who chose to breed crossbreed litters is 'why??'
This is a genuine question, not a pop at the original poster. She obviously loves her breed, owning 2, so why not just breed to a dog of the same breed?
I love my vallhunds and my Elkhounds, I wouldn't dream of doing a X breed litter to 'get the best of both breeds'.

They've bought into the simplistic "crosses are healthier than purebreds" mantra...... Without understanding the basic premise..
Only if both individuals are TESTED healthy in the first instance.

> as I understand it from reading posts on here about breeding, a slip mating can result in pregnancy so it could already be too late to think about health tests

Actually no, if the bitch has been mated she can have the Alizin injection at the end of her season to stop the pregnancy, this can be administered up to 42 days after a mating (if a bitch is unexpectedly found pregnant), to abort a pregnancy, though obviously it is better to give it sooner.

Though from what the poster wrote it sounds like no mating took place just some half hearted mounting.

Bet the studs a Poodle.

Or a Bichon!

Well I have just read all this post and replies.   It did give me a sense of deja Vue on my own baptism of fire here on CD...

We all would like healthy puppies from healthy parents and then onto loving forever homes.
Often this does not happen due to farms producing poorly bred puppies.
I do feel that new members often pop in and ask a question that may cause a red flag to some members and they get caught in a barrage of DON'T's and sometimes assumptions because not all the information has been given.
Would it not be better to be a little less gung ho and have a more reasonable discussion than send someone away with a negative view of the forum?

If a mating had occurred with the OP dog surely it would have been better if she had a place to come,seek help and advice for mom and puppies.

I'd hate to see another new member shoved off CD because of tit for tat replies or refusing to give advice and advising this in writing.

If a mating had occurred with the OP dog surely it would have been better if she had a place to come,seek help and advice for mom and puppies.

I for one would not like to help a BYB produce unhealthy puppies. The advice given on here is for the entire world to see and will come up when Googling. So giving help to one person could mean giving help to another 100, without them having to ask. Far better to tell the truth and then when people Google in future, they will see it's not as easy as just put two dogs together.

I have to agree with Goldmali.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

There are a lot of very knowledgeable people who sadly no longer post on this forum over just such an issue. Having been reprimanded for not being pink and fluffy towards posters such as the original poster they decided they could no longer give advice that didn't uphold their own beliefs and rather than encourage a breeding that went against all their own ethical views they decided to leave the forum as they could no longer be a part of such a process. If one has been a member of this forum for many years it means one will have seen numerous posts asking for advice that has then been totally disregarded. If one is passionate about producing healthy puppies for all the right reasons it is so frustrating to see so many pups being brought into this world for all the wrong reasons and under the wrong circumstances. It's very hard and very waring to give out relevant necessary information to just be accused of being confrontational.

When a poster immediately criticises any advice given one has to ask who is in the wrong - the posters trying to help who state the facts in a blunt way or the poster who doesn't want to listen and learn?

It can sometimes seem as though one is banging their head against a brick wall and one gets to the point when enough is enough - sadly to the detriment of those who would have benefitted enormously from their knowledge and experience. Luckily there are still some very experienced people on here still who have not yet been battered into submission :-)

True Harley yes however I still feel a group completely jumping over a new poster is a harsh thing to do. Where does good manners, feelings and goodwill to all on this planet come in to play. Yes a few members have left CD but isn't this just the same throw the dummy out the pram behaviour? Why is it right for a few people to develop a pack mentality and pick off a few out of the pack? Does it make it right when new member is upset and gains negative feedback from here. They can on other forums advise of negativity etc and this too can be Google by anyone even the world's best breeder who has never heard of CD say and all they pick up is the backlash this member and others in the past have received. .... two wrongs do not make a right.
I'm here enjoying CD and I learn new things and tips and advice yes.
We are all individuals and we have our own ways,likes and dislikes I'd like to think we all could help someone if they needed it whether the question had been asked before or not.

If new posters chose to withhold all the facts (as I think you did with your first posts on here) then I don't see why long standing group members can't be annoyed.

I think that the replies given were perfectly reasonable. If this poster has done all the required health testing than why not say so? If she is using a proper, responsible stud dog owner than she shouldn't need to be on here asking these types of questions.

Unfortunately with the way indiscriminate dog breeding is happening in this country (you only have to look at any of the less desirable selling sites to get evidence) the Government is at some point going to take notice at what is happening. Compulsory micro chipping is only the start.

A lot of people seem to see the breeding of their dogs (whether as in breeding a litter or offering their dog at stud) as a form of annual income to boost their finances.

Do you really think it is responsible to encourage the breeding of cross breed/ untested parents on here? Do you really think this poster will change her mind about breeding her bitch?

There are plenty of "flaky" forums where people can hear what they want to hear, cooing and ahhing over mummy and babies.

She may have changed her mind  we won't know unless she comes back... She may have decided to check with stud dog re heath tests again we won't know unless she returns.

Why are people accused of withholding facts if in their first post it's not a 20 page blow by blow account of their question? They may have put in a question in a short form and since when have we had to put everything in about ourselves? Foot size etc btw mine is a 6 ☺notice the tongue in cheek here used.

Regarding gene pool I see a forum as a part of this we add to this with new members and draw more experience and knowledge and possibly new tips and ways...
Biffsmom I'm not making it personal here so I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you thank you

Joe Public sadly think that Hybrid vigour exists when breeding the same species together, it doesn't. All dogs are one species & therefore breeding across the man-made breeds doesn't necessarily improve on either breed. They believe the rubbish spouted by the likes of the Vets like Fogle & Evans, that cross breeding breeds will improve the health of dogs. All dogs have genetic conditions in some form, some more than others, but the strides made in health testing is improving health.

I would be worried about the health of a breeding dog regularly sees a vet, my dogs aren't breeding dogs but active working dogs & rarely visit the vets, unless it is for.an.accidental injury & they are few & far between & yes the pedigree ones come from health tested parents

I guess one just gives up having said the same old thing week in week out for years. There comes a time when one has to say enough is enough and preserve one's own sanity.

For every newcomer their questions are new to them but have probably been answered hundreds of times over the years by the same people. This is a site where information is given freely and sometimes one can just get fed up of repeating the same old same old and being berated for delivering the information. Yes some posters can be very blunt in their replies - maybe that is how they are in real life, who knows. Yes it might seem that a "pack mentality" might be operating - or maybe it's that long term members just get fed up and frustrated at realising that so many puppies are being produced for the wrong reasons. Nobody minds answering a question if it helps somebody else out - what they do object to is answering it and then being criticised by someone that isn't interested in learning and not only dismisses the answers but then goes on to be hostile with the provider of the information. Like anything in life there is always more to learn - but one doesn't have to live with being a part of something they find totally unpalatable.

I don't believe anyone posts with the thought of "jumping  on"  someone new to the forum- but a lot of new posters don't like the answers given to the questions asked and it is that attitude that is jumped on. If one doesn't want to hear the answer to a question then don't ask it.

As for preventing Syringomyelia by cross breeding the following breeds also have diagnosed cases

Affenpinscher, Bichon Frise, Boston Terriers, Bulldogs, Chihuahuas, French Bulldogs, Griffon Bruxellois, Havanese, King Charles Spaniel, Miniature Dachshunds, Maltese, Miniature Pinscher, Miniature and Toy Poodles, Papillons, Pekingese, Pomeranians, Pug, Shih Tzus, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Yorkshire Terriers

True Harley yes repeated questions can irk. However if you look over all the threads we have same questions re whelping,pregnancy,worming, exercise,beds,toys,ticks etc I could go on.. In this case the forum would close because we all kept asking the same questions... Why are some questions answered over and over again without any batt of an eyelid yet others really are the red flag?
People react differently how they read an answer some may see it as a good answer others a bit blunt some think nonsense I don't agree...

It's not nice to see after the op has stopped answering more members almost joking at the op's expense. ..how do you know they still do not read the thread? It's not a kind thing Imo to do to another human being...

> however I still feel a group completely jumping over a new poster is a harsh thing to do.

but no-one jumps on anyone as a group individuals post advice or opinions, the fact that many people decide to post in the same vein does not make ait a conspiracy to bully a poster.

Sometimes when there are two sides to an issue there will be equal numbers of opposing opinions.

all good unless posts get personal.

I aim never to address the poster only the post.  to be honest I rarely know look or care who posted, it's all anonymous as I personally know no-one (well actually I do know one or two people in my breed who post, and have met the odd other who I won't associate with their posting name anyway.

People simply don't like being told it's a bad idea to do something if they have set their minds to do it.

Why are some questions answered over and over again without any batt of an eyelid yet others really are the red flag?

I guess because choosing to breed from a dog  is a very emotive subject - you are talking about choosing to create  lives that need to be lived as healthily and happily as possible so when it is clear that all the necessary actions needed to achieve this aren't being done and are being dismissed out of hand then it does cause emotions to run high.

With whelping the deed has already been done and the replies will be geared to trying to help a successful outcome with live pups and a live dam however unwise the mating was and whatever advice has been ignored - because the forum is peopled by those who truly care for dogs and have their best interest at heart.

Worming, beds, toys etc don't involve the creation of new life so would imagine that is why those topics dont become so heated.

If Ali comes back...

> As for being different from vet checks im sure after the length of time i have had my dogs i would know if they had any of these problems which they dont.

One of my crossbreeds was 7yrs old before she was diagnosed with a chronic slipped disc and hip dysplasia.  She showed no symptoms of either until then and when she did, all she showed was a brief hesitation to do a contact obstacle in agility: she still did the jumps, tunnel etc at top speed with no hesitation.  Even looking back now, with the knowledge and experience I've gained in detecting the slightest hints of such things in mine and other peoples' dogs (I have since had two other with slipped discs, among other things), there were no signs.  So yes, serious conditions can be present without us having the faintest clue.

You are entirely correct Harley.
Despite nearly 40 years of breeding pedigree dogs ( I know, how dare I ?) I no longer chose to post on breeding matters.
I felt I had to comment on this thread however as I feel very strongly that there is no excuse for washing ones hands of the consequences of our actions.
It's the dogs who suffer.

True Harley but same question over and over is it not? You cannot say not every question asked the same way is ok but one or two are not. For all those outside the dog world it adds to the public's views that some dog breeders are know better than everyone else. A one off breeder cannot be as great as those that show every year and has a great gene pool. God help those that breed for the joy of a litter from their beloved dog/girl. My breeder fabulous yet some here wouldn't feel this. Sad,sad times to be so judgemental

They do. If you re read posts you can see this

> A one off breeder cannot be as great as those that show every year and has a great gene pool. God help those that breed for the joy of a litter from their beloved dog/girl.

All power to their elbow as long as they do at least as much as the dedicated regular breeder, regarding trying to ensure the best possible outcome, and take full responsibility for the lives created..

Breeding a one off litter does not give permission for someone to cut corners where health and temperament are concerned, and not wash their hands of the matter once pups are gone to new homes.

We are not saying don't do it, just do it properly.  The dogs and their potential owners deserve no less.

> They do. If you re read posts you can see this

Do what??

Never advised to cut corners.. I think if a healthy dog from healthy parents why should they not have one litter? Why would they disown puppies? My breeder had one litter they all keep in touch 4 times a year. We need help she is there. I see no cut corners here.

Then that is great, assuming they have done the appropriate pre breeding health testing, and as you say they homed pups responsibly and are being so long term, whoever would think that was wrong?

Never advised to cut corners.. I think if a healthy dog from healthy parents why should they not have one litter?

This thread was not about somebody wanting to breed from healthy parents, as they were not prepared to do the relevant tests. You don't even have to obviously UNhealthy parents, if both are carriers of the same problem the pups can end up with it even if both parents say healthy. It's Russian Roulette with puppies.

Why NOT breed from two healthy parents - well there are many, many reasons. Health is just one part, for a start. But putting everything else aside, a novice breeder who has never been involved in dogs as anything but a pet owner (of perhaps just one or two dogs as well -so common now for people to breed from their first dog) is not going to be able to be the rock a breeder needs to be for their puppy buyers for 12-15 years or so. That needs experience, not necessarily of breeding, but of having lived with the breed for years, learnt as much as possible about it, etc.

Another thing to remember is that a good breeder will endorse their dogs to say they can't be bred from and those endorsements will only be lifted by the breeder if certain conditions are met - health testing for relevant breed being one of the foremost conditions. Endorsements are there to protect the dogs.

A good breeder will take back a dog they have bred if the owner is unable to keep it for some reason. Do other breeders do this or have this as one of the conditions of their contract with new owner? Ethical responsible breeders undertake  a lifelong responsibility for every puppy they have ever bred. Many of the people on this forum who have bred dogs have been in that position and have stepped up to the mark and had the dog back again - some at a very advanced age.

I honestly can't see why people need to have just one litter from their dogs unless they are wanting a pup for themselves and deny their pups the best chance of being born as healthy as possible.
Have a look at the link I have attached about health tests for working cocker spaniels - if you look at the section on prcd-PRA for example you will see why health testing is a must.
http://www.workingcockerhealthscreendirectory.com/healthtestsavailable.htm

Why would they not be a rock to lean ? Goldmali you cannot tar every single one off breeder as having not enough experience.
As many say anyone can breed a dog but it's the follow up advice/care from breeder to owner that counts. Just one litter can be from a good breeder who cares, who gives commitment to her puppy buyers.she is contactable always.. a breeder could have quite a few litters yet not give as much as the single breeder...too much knowledge can also breed  contempt where it's not needed.

Not sure one can ever have too much knowledge

Have you read the link I put up about health tests for cocker spaniels ( chose that link as it's very informative)? Having read it maybe it will be easier to understand why breeding from dogs without doing the relevant testing can cause such heartache and pain. A lot of people who only want to have one litter from their pet dog probably wouldn't be willing to pay out a small fortune to have all those tests done and thus don't bother but risk passing on the most awful conditions to their pups. Not sure why anyone would want to do that unless they are breeding for all the wrong reasons.

Over and out

Just to say:  My previous dogs, I've never bred from, but I've health tested them all.  Including hip scoring.  Just in case I ever wanted to, and just so I could pass that information back to their breeders and anyone with dogs related to them.

Goldmali you cannot tar every single one off breeder as having not enough experience.

I never said that, did I? See below.

a novice breeder who has never been involved in dogs as anything but a pet owner (of perhaps just one or two dogs as well -so common now for people to breed from their first dog)

People did not Jump on or gang up on anyone Saxonjus. People offered good advice about health testing as the poster said themselves they were new to breeding and learning as they went. As they didn't mention that they had health tested their dog they were told about the testing their breed should have as they may not have known they existed. The op then got upset, it was not the advice they wanted and got offended at how they presived the posts. That's the problem with the written word you cant hear how its being said when typed so its easy to misjudge how someone has meant a post. Rather then getting defensive and accusing people of being high and mighty they could have replied with either yes I have done such and such tests thank you or I did not know about them please tell me more or i haven't how do I get them done. A few people did ask if they had done them but never got an answer witch along with the comment about if people wanted a pup from health tested parents they should go to a business breeder it really doesn't give an good impression and comes off as if they had no plans to do them, although as I said with the written word this may not be how they meant it to come across.

people here will always advocate not breeding from un-health tested dogs as the whole point of the site it to premote responsible breeding.

probably time this thread was closed, The op has had advice everything else is just going round in circles.

One thing no one has mentioned or questioned about a dog-owner with a one-time, just-for-fun litter is:
Is this person EQUIPPED to raise a litter?  Do they have the infrastructure or know what is needed?  Are they thinking that it is OK to raise puppies on a balcony in a city?  Or do they have a garden, and is it fenced in?  When I look at what I have assembled over the years in the way of arrangements and equipment for inside and outdoors (pens I can put together any size I need, beds and toys, miniature agility elements, whelping box, vetbed rugs, scales, weight charts, and so on...), I have to remember how long that took and how much advice I needed.

I have to say that we all start somewhere but most people who do it right get the information they need prior to going for a mating. They find out how to tell when a bitches is ready to be mated, now this can be found online but is far better from a mentor, even a decent stud owner will know the answer to this. Any reputable owner planning to breed will do all the relevant health tests for their girl and will check the stud dog has had the same whether they are the same breed or not in this case. They will have researched everything they can, asked questions to knowledgeable people and taken on board the advice. They will have all the equipment needed to have a litter, available funds in case things go wrong, booked time off work if they work to be with the pups 24/7 for at least the first few weeks. They will sleep by the litter on average for the first 4 weeks.
They will have contracts sorted out and responsible breeders will care for the wellbeing of the mum and pups for the lifetime. They will be prepared and will have it in their contract that they will take back a dog at any age no matter what to prevent it going into a rescue centre, that might be a dog of 7yrs who has health or behavioural issues too.
They will be available at the end of the phone for advice throughout the life of the puppy as well for all owners.

If the breeder and the stud owner don't know what they are doing then they shouldn't be trying to create life. In the world of where people are sued left right and centre for things there could easily be a case and maybe in some breeds it's happening that if you fail to health test for a condition and a puppy then has this condition where it could have been prevented you could be taken to court.

If anyone really cares for the welfare of the puppies they bring into this world they will do everything they can to minimise health and temperament problems and will do their upmost to make sure they produce happy and healthy puppies.

maybe a list of thing that should be done would be useful together with the risks

I did read the link Harley thanks I had read before last year when I was pricing and having heath tests done on my boy.....
Always good to be forewarned and prepared sometimes thou accidents can happen !
over and out

When breeding our girl for the first time, I actually did some research myself before hand, which included looking at posts from this very forum as a non-member. On my first post I had a similar reception to the OP and remember myself becoming VERY defensive, and very 'you don't know me or my dog' ... You get the drift ... But the wealth of knowledge, support and down right amazing advice I received through overwhelming guidance and continued interest from the members kept me on the forum. From book advice (which admittedly I should have read/known about before hand - TBOTB), to whelpimg reassurance during the birth (at 3am) is something that one can't put a price on. Since then I've also asked for advice regarding other dogs on walks, breed specific diet information and the like. My advice to new posters is to think about what you post, consider the ethos of this forum, and have a bit of a backbone! Sometimes you don't get what you want to hear...

> I guess one just gives up having said the same old thing week in week out for years. There comes a time when one has to say enough is enough and preserve one's own sanity.<br />

You have knocked the nail on the head.  How many times have I given very detailed advice to people with very small bitches.  And how many times have I  asked if they would recognise uterine inertia?  No novice can say yes to that. And tiny breeds are my area of expertise.


But they leave a bitch in pain with inertia waiting days before the inevitable happens?  Then I feel so much anger for the bitch who was neglected.  The owner was given advice that AGAIN was ignored.  It becomes so wearing that there are times that I don't contribute.

>I fear that Alibali has gone off in a huff

And no doubt to produce yet another litter of untested mongrels. At least as the stud dog owner doesn't seem much more knowledgable we can always hope they don't succeed....

Just wondering if this is a wind up as I'm sure that no one with theirs dogs health at stake could really carry on after the advice they have been given.

If this was actually two slip matings, rather than mounting only, they may have no option but to carry on, regardless of advice given (and are unlikely to prevent/terminate given it was a planned mating). As it is, it's fairly unclear as to what actually happened.

But yes, it's very possible it was a troll post, because fairly brief reading of older posts let's trolls know very quickly which buttons to press, making this forum an easy target, and some people take great joy in causing others' BP to rise via a load of rubbish posted on the internet.