Hi, We have decided to breed our dog for the first time so we are learning as we go along really. I contacted someone who was advertising their dog as a stud and they said they have done it a few times so we are just following their lead. Im not 100% sure what stage of her season she is at so we went along yesterday to introduce the dogs and see what happened. My dog was lifting her tail and letting him lick and mount her but a tie never happened. The dogs owners thought he was a little short and tried to put something under him but it wasnt successful. We returned today and tried again and once again no tie. I dont know if she is just not ready yet or if we are not giving them enough time. Both times we were there for about 30 mins as the owner said if its not happened yet it is unlikely to. From everything i have read it seems she wouldnt allow him to  mount if she was not ready so now im confused. Her discharge is still a bit bloody as well so any advice anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. We are due to go back on Monday to try again plus the other dogs owners have only spoken of a tie happening once would this not be enough? Please Help.

Your putting the cart before the horse.

It doesn't' sound like you have any experience in what the proper way of approaching breeding is.

For a start your breed should be heart tested and also have an MRI scan for Syringiomyelia.  the same goes for the stud.

You should be working with someone more knowledgeable who knows the bred lines of your bitch and the potential sire, to know that typical well adjusted healthy pups are likely.

Remember you will be selling the puppies to people who may well take you to court if a problem arises with the pups that could have been prevented by health screening.

Forget about mating her this season and get the Health screening done, and approach a stud dog owner who heath tests their dogs.

Your bitches parents and the dog parents should be heart murmur free at over 5 years of age and your bitch and stud should be over 23 1/2 years of age and murmur free.  Then there is the MRI.

Bravo Barbara!

How do you know i havent already had these test done? I am asking about how i will know if she is ready or not .I never mentioned anything about selling puppies and i never said what kind of dog the stud was or what test it has had done you are assuming an awful lot from a little information. My dog is a family pet she is not a breeding machine and im not interested in her whole family history I know her nature and she is a very well cared for dog who attends the vet regularly and is very healthy Yes I am inexperienced but everyone is at the beginning so if you cant or wont help thats fine but please dont berate me for trying to get as much information as i can, I am not looking at this from a business point of view and if people want puppies that come with papers and are health screened then they should buy from a reputable breeder who advertises the fact that they do these things and are running it as a business, I certainly am not

Do you not want to breed healthy pets then?

Many of us do not breed as a business but still want to breed healthy pets for everyone to enjoy for many years, which is why we do the recommended testing(& more) for our breeds

Every puppy born is entitled to be brought into this world as healthy as possible.

What are your reasons for wishing to breed from your dog?

> I am not looking at this from a business point of view and if people want puppies that come with papers and are health screened then they should buy from a reputable breeder who advertises the fact that they do these things and are running it as a business, I certainly am not.


As soon as you breed a litter of puppies you are a breeder the same as having a child makes you a parent be it one child or more. It is obvious from your post that you haven't had the relevant health tests done for the breed of dog you have. I find it interesting , from the above quote from your own post, that you don't consider yourself to be a reputable breeder. None of the experienced reputable breeders on here are running a business from breeding. They don't just use the nearest convenient stud but go to great lengths to find a dog that will complement their own bitch, and they ensure the dog has had all the relevant health tests done - totally different from a health check by their vet.

The poster whose questions you took exception to travelled to the USA with one of her bitches because the stud dog there was the best match for her bitch and was chosen carefully and with great thought.

People on here are passionate about producing the best puppies they can and  there should be no difference between puppies bred to be pets and puppies that have the potential to be shown or to work. Why should a puppy that is going to be a pet - as everyone's dogs on here are first and foremost whatever other roles they may have - not have the same care, respect and thought go into it's breeding.

The breed that you have are known to have a lot of specific health problems that can and should be screened for before even contemplating breeding from her. Choosing not to do those tests is your choice but is that choice an ethical one? Why would you not wish to give any puppies the best possible start in life and try your best to ensure those puppies aren't inheriting painful, debilitating conditions?

Have you considered what might go wrong and the cost of an out of hours C Section- over £1000  and no guarantee of a successful outcome.

You have asked for advice and maybe haven't had the answers you wished to receive - nobody is being disrespectful just very concerned for any pups that might end up coming into this world without the benefit of proper planning and understanding what is needed to produce as healthy a litter of pups as possible.

There is a whole world between "a family pet" and a "breeding machine".  It is not "either/or".  The moment you mate your dog, you have become a breeder because you have chosen to bring new life into this world, new little lives for which you are responsible.  No matter how you look at it, that IS what it boils down to.  People such as many on this forum who have dedicated years and years of their lives to this are going to look at this matter (and your question) a little differently than you expected.  Try to learn from it.

P.S.  I just saw the post of Harley, who has said basically the same thing.

Every single dog that is bred from should be health screened, no matter their purpose - pet, show, working, whatever.  It is so, so important.  It is even more important in a breed prone to some serious health issues, as cavaliers are.  A good nature is important but it is in no way the only concern.  I know a couple of owners of cavaliers who were just bred to be pets, who have SM, and it is heartbreaking.  They never asked for it - they just wanted a healthy, happy, friendly pet but because their dogs' breeders didn't do it properly, that isn't what they got.  One, fortunately, isn't too bad but the other is.  Also, seeing the vet regularly is not enough - SM can only be diagnosed by MRI and unless the symptoms are very obvious, a case mild enough to be asymptomatic, but still very much heritable, would be missed without one.

You say Brainless gave you no information - actually, she gave you a heck of a lot of information which you could learn a lot from.  She is a very experienced breeder, exactly the sort of person you should be listening to and taking advice from.

My dog is a family pet she is not a breeding machine and im not interested in her whole family history

As you have a breed with some of the most serious health problems there is, which don't tend to show up until age 5 or 6 or so, you SHOULD be interested in her family history -unless you want to produce pups that may die aged 6. It's vital to know your pedigree and know the health of parents, grandparents etc, know how long they lived. I've lost count of the people I've met at training class over the years who told me their dog of this breed died aged 6.

I'm not a breeder but I would certainly have got as much information as I could BEFORE letting my dog try to mate with another. You should have a mentor, normally the breeder you got your girl from with experience of breeding who would guide you through the mating process. It's normal for reputable breeders to put an endorsement in contract of sale to prevent undesirable breeding.

>I am not looking at this from a business point of view and if people want puppies that come with papers and are health screened then they should buy from a reputable breeder who advertises the fact that they do these things and are running it as a business

sadly those who breed for business do not go to the expense of doing things properly and health testing their dogs.

Those who do so are as you say reputable breeders who breed from their dogs with knowledge and love for their dogs and breed,

It is actually very important to know all about the family lines in order to breed healthy typical representatives of their breed.  Attending the vet and knowing your bitch is healthy herself at a given time does not mean there will not be issues if she is not bred from correctly. We are talking about her potential to pass on good and bad genes.

You did say your bitches breed and of course I assumed the stud would be the same.

I only asked a simple question which nobody seems to want to answer instead you want to condemn me when you know nothing about me, Maybe i have been lucky as i have 2 dogs that did not come with any of these checks done and they are both healthy. As for being different from vet checks im sure after the length of time i have had my dogs i would know if they had any of these problems which they dont. As for saying all of the breeders on here are not doing it as a business i find that very hard to believe im sure you dont travel all the way to the USA and the give the puppies away. Of course i want to bring healthy puppies into the world but think you are all going a bit overboard about all this. Im sorry if i have offended you with my lack of experience i was only trying to learn obviously i picked the wrong place to try and do it so lets just forget i ever asked. I never put the question up to be scolded like a naughty child by all you wonderful breeders out there im quite sure there is a better way to get your point across to people without blowing your own trumpets and making out you are so much better than all us little people I will just leave you to get on with patting each other on the back and telling each other how wonderful you all are and go back to my sad ignorant life where im cruel to animals. Lets just hope people dont start screening humans before they have kids or the world will be full of perfect people and all the people who are not quite the same as you will be errdicated as abnormal wont be tolerated and what a world that will be

You picked the best place to learn & get an honest answer from experienced people...you just don't like what replies we are giving...

You may be giving good information that any breeder should know but the way that you are giving it is shocking (maybe rethink your tone/the way you word things in future). You are assuming things that you can't just assume, making them seem like facts when they are all completely wrong. I have another cavalier that is 8 and I am well aware of the health problems that they can have so please stop acting like I'm stupid. I made the mistake of thinking that this would be a forum that would have open minded people that would be willing to help a beginner, which you all were at some point in time. I actually have done research before I found a stud but I came across things that I was a little confused about and that is the reason I posted on this forum, so that I could get some advice. I did not for one second believe I would be met with such high and mighty people unwilling to help anyone. Maybe you should put on this forum that it is for experts only and that beginnners should just stay away as we are all idiots who know nothing about our own dogs.

> im sure you dont travel all the way to the USA and the give the puppies away.

No, but you do make a serious loss on the exercise, it's and investment in the breeds gene pool in this country to keep the breed healthy, and the stud owner decided to have a puppy and return my stud fee, and then had to pay to ship the puppy to the USA.  After she had put me up for two weeks too.

After paying to keep your dogs and the cost involved with breeding your lucky to have enough over to enter a few of the years shows.

You will find Alibail that as the headline of the main sites says "Promoting Responsible Dog Breeding" is what people here are all about. Why are you being so defensive over a simple question and good advice you have recived? I'd say the majority here do not see or treat their dogs as breeding machines but like your own dog they are their pets first. Someone who treats their dogs as breeding machines are not responsible breeders. You also need to be aware unless you give plenty of information in your posts people will asume things based on what you have written and how you have written it.

Yes you may be new to breeding and everyone is new to it at some point, but you really need to know what's what before you mate your girl as you owe it to her and her puppies. With breeding it's not realy something you want to learn about as you go as worst case scenario you could end up losing your girl if you don't know to spot a problem. Because you have said your are new and this is your first time people will kindly offer you advice on a range of things to help you make sure your bitch stays safe and her litter is as healthy as possible.

Health testing Is very important to all dogs espicialy pets, it would be terrible if one or more of your puppies ended up with a preventable condition wouldn't it. No one's wants that. It's alot more than a vet health check. If you have done all the breed related health testing then good on you that's great, if you haven't I'm afraid it's not a responsible way to breed if you don't. (As soon as you breed 1 litter your a breeder weather it's pets or not)

As for your original question if you have not had her tested to see when she ovulates no one here can realy say, could be too early might not be but an issue with him or her. When you say your not sure what stage of her season she is at do you mean you don't know when she started? If you hoping to breed you need to be watching out for it to start so you know what day she is on.

> I actually have done research before I found a stud but I came across things that I was a little confused about and that is the reason I posted on this forum, so that I could get some advice. I did not for one second believe I would be met with such high and mighty people unwilling to help anyone. Maybe you should put on this forum that it is for experts only and that beginnners should just stay away as we are all idiots who know nothing about our own dogs.

I don't see where you have gotten this impression to be honest. Reading all the replies the only one coming across confrontational if your replies to the helpfully advice people have given.
Yes people have asumed you have not done the breed relevant health testing as you did not say you had done it and said you were new to breeding and kind of learning as you went.
Many people who are new to breeding simply do not know that these tests exist as sadly vets for some reason don't talk about them with clients. As a result many dogs who themselves are healthy at the time are bred from and end up passing on ressive health problems or they themselves are diagnosed later on in life. You may very well have been lucky with your two, I've seen a poor cav cross puppy in the local rescue with a painful health problem because the parents were not tested from for some reason. A high portion of your breed are effect by heart and SM problems.

No one here is trying to be high and mighty and new breeders are always welcome here if they wish to learn and breed responsibly which is what people here are trying to do, give you usefull advice to produce puppies with the best chance of not having the problems common in your breed. Many posters are presice and to the point but are freely giving sound quality advice.

Thank you JoStokbridge for puting your point across so nicely, a lot of people on this site should read your comment and take a leaf out of your book. I asked basically whether my dog would let the stud mount if she was not ready. Which however much research you do or preperation before hand you can still be confused by the actual physicalities of it all but no one has actually answered this i just got shot down for lack of experience which i admitted at the beginning of my question then accused of having no health checks done when they have no idea if i have or not . I am trying to be a resposnible breeder and only intended to do it once but im afraid i wouldnt recomend anyone who is starting out to ask for any advice in this forum because people are too quick to judge and attack before they have the relevent information. There is a way of giving advice without looking down on people and trying to make them look stupid. It sthe first time I have ever gone on something like this and it will be the last as it sbeen a terrible experience. Better just to keep your mouth shut it seems than try to learn anything on these sites

I did not for one second believe I would be met with such high and mighty people unwilling to help anyone.

We all are helping -helping the dogs. And the future owners of any puppies you produce. You don't buy a car without knowing how to drive and learn as you go along just asking questions on a forum on how to do it, and dogs really should be the same. Knowledge first, then you gain practical experience. Most of us plan a litter a year in advance at least, to ensure all health tests are up to date, we have picked the best possible stud etc, and built up a waiting list of puppy buyers.

I have another cavalier that is 8 and I am well aware of the health problems that they can have so please stop acting like I'm stupid.

Then why say you are not interested in family history? That's the MAIN thing to be aware of with this breed.
My first dog of this breed actually lived to be over 15 years. But he had grade 6 MVD from the age of 8. He cost a lot of money in medications etc, and it was difficult to never know whether he'd be alive in the morning or not. The vet at the time gave him just a few months to live. And this dog came from a reputable breeder who DOES health test. It's however a fact that 50 % of all have a heart murmur by the age of 5. And MVD is perhaps the lesser of the two evils, with SM being potentially far more serious. You have other issues to consider as well, such as Episodic Falling and more.

I once had a dog of this breed who died on her first birthday. Not something I would wish on anyone. THAT breeder had not health tested the parents.

So have you health tested or not?

Have you got 'the book of the bitch'?

I don't think anyone was trying to shoot you down, but to make sure you were aware of the other things as well like the health testing that are very important as you said you were new you may have not known about them and with you breed espicialy having a high occurrence of issues that can be missed with out the tests. I truly believe everyone here has your girl and her pups well being at heart. People are very passionate when it comes to breeding due to them amount of problem that can be prevented but many don't.

Which testing have you done? If there are some you haven't done yet I'd Waite this season get them done then try next season. People here can offer advice in how and where to get them done. But the breed club l and kc are good places to look if you haven't done them yet.

Did you read the first reply i got first it was pointed out i had no experience which i know then accused of no health checks. I never mentioned health checks a smy question was not about health checks. There is a way to ut things and that most definitely wasnt it!! there is being honest and down right rude. Not really the way a new member shouldbe treated i dont thin. Its not exactly encouraging.

Alibali, the fact is that people on this site don't really want to help you achieve a mating from un-health-tested dogs which may produce puppies with syringo.  Have you even seen video footage of affected dogs?  Can you honestly watch it and state that you don't mind if you produce puppies like that???

I sincerely hope you don't achieve a mating and definitely wouldn't be offering any advice.  Your statements about having attended the vet regularly are a red flag to indicate that you haven't done the necessary health checks and don't even know what's involved in them.

> A high portion of your breed are effect by heart and SM problems.

Probably also worth noting that some other breeds, not just Cavs, also get Syringomyelia...and many genetic health issues only need one affected parent to be passed on.

What breed is the stud?

Yes i have watched footage of this a si said im not stupid and as i said before its just as well they dont do this with humans as i have a daughter with adhd and onewith autism they obviously shouldnt exist in your eyes. Has anyone actually asked me if ihave done any health screening? No just jumped to conclusions so as far as your advice I dont want it thanks.

I for one have never bred a litter or have any intention of ever doing so. I do however know that when I get my next puppy it will most certainly come from an ethical, reputable breeder that has bred for health, temperament and type.My dogs are all pets.

Why would I want to risk buying a puppy that hasn't had every possible chance of trying to ensure it is as healthy as possible? I like my dogs to enjoy a long and healthy life - even though they are "just pets".

> Maybe i have been lucky as i have 2 spaniels that did not come with any of these checks done and they are both healthy. As for being different from vet checks im sure after the length of time i have had my dogs i would know if they had any of these problems which they dont.

Not sure how old your dogs are but some of the health problems mentioned for your breed aren't always apparent during their early years.> Of course i want to bring healthy puppies into the world but think you are all going a bit overboard about all this.

> Of course i want to bring healthy puppies into the world but think you are all going a bit overboard about all this.

There are never any guarantees as to health but every pup deserves to  have the very best start in life - and one of the major factors of ensuring this is to make sure both parents have all relevant health tests recommended for their breed.

> As for saying all of the breeders on here are not doing it as a business i find that very hard to believe im sure you dont travel all the way to the USA and the give the puppies away.

Reputable breeders breed to better their chosen breed and because they want another puppy for themselves - the costs involved when breeding is done correctly and for the right reasons mean that they can often end up out of pocket. The only breeders who make a profit are puppy farms and backyard breeders - it's easy to make a profit when one's costs for breeding are minimal. The majority of breeders who breed for the right reasons spend a fortune bringing a litter into this world.

> only asked a simple question which nobody seems to want to answer instead you want to condemn me when you know nothing about me

The questions you asked   do tend to make one think that you have very little knowledge of the process of breeding - not surprising really that people would question your motives and knowledge. You are right in that every breeder would have had a first time of breeding a litter. The big difference is that the breeders who tend to frequent this forum would have spent years researching their chosen breed, lines that would complement their own dogs, health testing for conditions that might affect their breed and would have a mentor to help them through the whole process before ever going ahead with a mating.

> Lets just hope people dont start screening humans before they have kids or the world will be full of perfect people and all the people who are not quite the same as you will be errdicated as abnormal wont be tolerated and what a world that will be

The big difference is that people have a choice about having children - with dogs that choice is made by their owners who should do their utmost to ensure they have done all they can to produce healthy puppies.

Nobody has said you were cruel to animals. The big concern is that you are going ahead with something that produces life and don't appear to have done even the most basic of research. Sorry if that offends you but it's how I feel.

Yes, I think you'll find the very first person to reply to you, asked if you've done health screening.  As has every single person since. 

You haven't given an answer and everyone is still waiting...

I asked.

> Has anyone actually asked me if ihave done any health screening? No just jumped to conclusions so as far as your advice I dont want it thanks.

You said yourself that you didn't need to do health tests as you were only breeding pets?

I am not looking at this from a business point of view and if people want puppies that come with papers and are health screened then they should buy from a reputable breeder who advertises the fact that they do these things and are running it as a business, I certainly am not

On the positive side of things, I happened to accidentally look back at the very first posts from 2001 in this Breeding section of the board yesterday, and I was just thinking to myself how things have improved.  At that time, every other post was like this and now it happens much more rarely.  So maybe things are changing, slowly.

20,000+ people have signed a petition to demand that Cavaliers be Heart screened for MVD and MRI scanned for SM  before breeding....Google it.....Cavalier Matters
If you think that with all the media coverage of that petition...and all the other bad stories about unhealth tested Cavaliers, you won't get sued by an owner if one of your puppies contracts one of these conditions then I'm afraid you are naive.
So many 'one off litters' producers think it doesn't apply to them.....read the stories..  They only wanted a pet.

> 20,000+ people have signed a petition to demand that Cavaliers be Heart screened for MVD and MRI scanned for SM  before breeding....Google it.....Cavalier Matters

Do we actually know this lady is breeding the Cavalier to another Cavalier.....?

Trying to be tactful here. If it is a cross breeding, then many genetic issues can still be passed on.

Also trying to be tactful.... human health issues are not the same. Parents love their children no matter what issues they are born with. Asking people to pay for animals (yes dogs) that have a high risk of developing health conditions is not the same. Especially when they could choose other breeders who can give some guarantee their puppies will not develop those conditions. Many dogs are PTS or surrendered to rescue every year because the congenital disorders they have, are too expensive or distressing for the owners to continue with.... and in many cases those are issue which could have been screened for.

In some countries - and possibly soon here as well - anyone breeding animals which develop health issues that COULD have been screened for, but weren't, can be prosecuted.

i have a daughter with adhd and onewith autism they obviously shouldnt exist in your eyes.

Presumably you didn't have them to sell on to other people -if you are planning to keep your entire litter so other people don't have to deal with potential future health problems, than that is somewhat more comparable. Except people can make a choice whether to have children or not, but we make the choice for our dogs.

The simple fact is we don't sell our children, we sell dogs. Those who buy them dont want a lifetime of pain and misery for the dog NOR do they want do pay for its treatment.
There is no NHS for dogs...it's an ongoing struggle for some owners.

I just want to be clear about all this I have never said you shouldnt do health checks, the fact is I didnt know you were supposed to but what i have a problem with is the way it was put. I was NEVER ASKED I was TOLD I should as if I was stupid if i didnt know this. I have no experience so that makes me sooo stupid just as my question (which was never answered) was stupid. So yes maybe these stupid questions arent asked as much now as you probably just talk to each other as you are all so experienced. If you have attacked people in the past like you have me its no wonder you dont get asked anymore. Maybe I should have looked back further before i asked as i would have saved myself a lot of grief tonight. So i wil bel;ogging off this site and leaving you all to it. Will look for one for the intelectually challenged as I so clearly am

Oh and no Im not breeding cavalier to cavalier thanks for asking and i also never mentioned selling puppies so yes maybe i am keeping them all or giving them to family again you just assumed without asking. Too many people on here just want to lord it over other people with out asking any questions

> Oh and no Im not breeding cavalier to cavalier thanks for asking

Crosses. Which can also have any health issues the parents have.

> Too many people on here just want to lord it over other people with out asking any questions

And we have asked questions....

Hopefully you have missed this time and can spend the next six months health testing and researching how to do things properly.

Everyone in here is a dog lover - as are you I am sure!! :)

You wouldn't want to be producing dogs with potential health issues just because you didn't know how to do things the right way.

The Cavalier club website will probably be a good starting point for information.

> I just want to be clear about all this I have never said you shouldnt do health checks, the fact is I didnt know you were supposed to

Ok for cavs you want eye testing under the BVA/KC Eye Scheme. This needs to be done by a specialist eye vet so you may need to call around and see which practices have a vet come out to do it (one of my vets do it once a month). They will check for numerous eye issues and you will get a certificate with the results. DNA tests for Episodic Falling and Curly Coat/ Dry Eye, check heart for Mitral Valve Disease and MRI for Syringomyelia. The cab club apperantpy holds testing sessions or a list of scanners who are cheaper.
Here's more info on these tests
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=6149

What the stud should have depends on his breed.

I just got up and have read this entire thread with my first cup of coffee.  This forum is just amazing - hats off! - and you should be very grateful and not a little surprised that these caring and experienced people have taken so much trouble to concern themselves with someone who is - it would appear - arrogant and insecure.  It is amazing to me that many people feel they can demand the expertise of knowledgeable breeders on any and all issues without the slightest respect or thanks.  One sure wouldn't dare to do this with people such as doctors or lawyers!  If you are a novice, then start out with some modesty and respect and forget your self-defense.  You won't learn anything that way, and there is no reason that the people on this forum should put up with your attitude.  I think an apology and a word of thanks from you is in order.

You see, we care so terribly much about the welfare of dogs that we cannot bear to think someone is going to do things (albeit unintentionally) which could cause their suffering.  We are not patting each other on the back, we are supporting each other.  And God knows, the world needs this kind of support.  Everyone would support you too (through advice and correction), if you were interested in learning and adjusting.

> Did you read the first reply I got first it was pointed out i had no experience

I did not accuse, you admitted you were inexperienced, so unlikely to know of the available and essential health tests, (no mention of either dog or bitch being health tested).  You say you found the stud dog in an advertisement, (guilty here I assumed not in a breed annual/yearbook) so obviously no prior contacts within the breed to guide you on how things are done properly.

You had obviously never been at a mating and therefore should not yet be planning to mate your bitch, putting her at risk as every pregnancy does, until more knowledgeable.

This knowledge is normally gained by researching your breed and your bitches background thoroughly, seeing relatives and the puppies they have produced, usually under the wing (mentorship) of your bitches breeder and often the owner of her sire, or other people with long experience in the breed who have the knowledge you as yet lack..

These people will be concerned that their line is bred on carefully to produce the best results in health, temperament, and of course type.

I bred my first litter in 1995, but by that point I had researched the breeds lines for decades from club journals going back to the 60's and even further, seeing photos and pedigrees of the dogs behind mine, their health results etc.  Meeting the current dogs at club events/shows.

I had regular contact with my bitches breeder and the owner of the sire who fortunately had both been active in the breed since the 50's and 60's and more import6antly (apart from imported dogs) knew every dog in my pedigree personally.  These ladies could guide me where the breed was concerned.

Locally from attendance at ringcraft classes I had made friends with many experienced breeders and was able to attend matings and be at the birth of several litters of various breeds (my own breed is very uncommon).

For the actual mating the very experienced stud dog owner guided me and managed the mating with me to give moral support to my bitch.  For the birth I had both ladies on the end f the phone during labour and my experienced friends came for the actual births.

In due course I have been able to do the same for others, spent the night at one families house while their bitch was in labour and helped deliver the pups.  Have done the  stud work for inexperienced owners of males.

Of course there are plenty of litters created and born on a  wing and a prayer, and often thankfully at least the birth and rearing go OK, but what of the future health and wellbeing of the puppies, their owne4rs and the breed?

It is pretty similar to the number of unplanned human pregnancies, result of a drunken night out, teenage ignorance etc, versus a couple planning a family when everything is in place a home, a stable relationship etc.  Which has the best chance of success???

I can only endorse what has already been said here (haven't yet read all of it so I may be repeating what others are saying).   Other than to suggest that if you have a much-loved PET why put her through the rigors of motherhood.   Lots can go wrong with a mating, pregnancy and whelping, to say nothing of rearing the puppies to the point that it is possible to lose a bitch which I'm sure is the last thing you want!!    If you have gone to a knowledgeable owner of a stud dog, she'd know about all of what you are asking - including the fact that a tie isn't necessary to have a successful outcome.   As long as the dog 'get there'.   One of mine never tied with his bitches, but only missed to one, who came back to our other male next time, and missed and went to another male away from our kennel, and missed again.   Of course breeders prefer to see a tie, but it isn't vital.

Everybody has to start somewhere in terms of starting a good bloodline of course, but they start with the best quality bitch they can persuade a top breeder to part with, rear her to the age she can be tested and then if she has matured as hoped (many puppies don't) go back to the breeder for the non-breeding endorsement all good breeders put on immature stock they sell to be lifted and to take their advice re a suitable male for her/her bloodlines.   And a health check isn't all it takes - one can but hope the bitch is in good health before being mated, wormed, and utd with vaccinations.

"I am not looking at this from a business point of view and if people want puppies that come with papers and are health screened then they should buy from a reputable breeder who advertises the fact that they do these things and are running it as a business,"

This being the case, then you are about to become a BYB.  Sorry.   We only bred for our next generation and certainly didn't look on what we were doing as 'a business'.   If we broke even with our litters, and had a couple (or just one) nice puppy for the next generation, that achieved our aim.   But we made sure we bred under the terms of our Club's Code of Ethics etc. at least.

If you don't like what you are reading here, at least it might make you think before you take this any further?   Please.

Brilliant post Barbara !

> I have never said you shouldnt do health checks, the fact is I didnt know you were supposed to but what i have a problem with is the way it was put. I was NEVER ASKED I was TOLD I should as if I was stupid if i didnt know this.

Now how could you get this from my reply, you admit you didn't know and I told you, why does it make you feel stupid?

I know nothing about Cars, and what I should look for when buying one second hand, fortunately my Father is a Car mechanic, and has always been able to advise.

Does that make me stupid, or just not knowledgeable about cars????

Now if I went ahead and bought a car without checking that it was roadworthy etc, then I'd be stupid.

> i also never mentioned selling puppies so yes maybe i am keeping them all or giving them to family

The purchase price of a puppy is the least of the expense of owning a dog.

Veterinary treatment and Insurance are high, especially fi problems develop.

Sometimes a free puppy can be a very expensive one.

the purchase price of a well bred puppy can rarely cover the man hours that have gone into the rearing let alone other costs associated with their breeding.

I fear that Alibali has gone off in a huff. 

Again:  If she could only appreciate what you have all given her, she would know how lucky she was.

Please, please research this fully before going ahead.  Rearing pups can be very rewarding (not usually in the financial sense) but is incredibly hard work.  I can only do it it because I have the full support of my husband and parents, without them I would never consider it as I could not give the bitch and her pups the round the clock attention required to successfully raise healthy, well socialised confident puppies who mostly go to live in family homes. Many first time breeders assume the mum does it all herself, not always the case and you need to be with her constantly in the days prior to delivery and my pups are not left alone at all for the first 3 weeks as I do not want to risk losing any.  This takes a lot as I also have 2 children.  There can be a lot of strain on finances, I'm sure this would apply even with a cross bred litter, c -sections, vet checks, microchipping (now a legal requirement for the breeder to have this done), worming, feeding, extra cleaning products, bedding for the pups and this is the bare minimum.  You mentioned keeping all or giving them to friends and family, we once had a litter of 13, do you have enough suitable people to give 13 pups to?  You clearly love your spaniels so why dilute all the things you love about them by cross breeding?  Please wait, take time to research things and then make a decision about whether breeding is for you an consider health testing your girl, surely you don't want to cause yourself, friends and family huge vet bills and avoidable heartache by breeding unhealthy pups.  I hope you come to a decision which is best for you, your bitch and any puppies who may be produced.

If you are still reading this OP, then please listen to what is being said about health testing in particular.

I have owned dogs all my life, I'm now 65, and all my dogs have been bought solely as pets. I don't show dogs, or work them, or breed from them to make money. They are my pets and my friends nothing more. But I wouldn't dream of buying a puppy from non health tested parents.

My breed of choice has some problems which can be tested for which could leave a dog very lame and in a lot of pain or blind. I don't want my friend to be in pain and to have his life cut short, I want a healthy happy pet dog who will enjoy his life with me in a pain free condition.

It doesn't matter whether you want to keep all the puppies from this mating or give them away to family, the end result is the same, they could have a nasty painful disease that you could have prevented from happening. Do you really want that on your conscience?

Trouble is, as I understand it from reading posts on here about breeding, a slip mating can result in pregnancy so it could already be too late to think about health tests. I, for one, have learned so much from everyone here and appreciate the knowledge you all have and willingly share. And also the time and care it takes to type such detailed answers. Now THAT is a pat on the back, from a non (and never will be) breeder!